So many cameras, my brain is breaking!
 

Hello, all,

This is my first post of dvinfo.net - thanks, Chris! In addition to being new to this forum, I am more or less a newbie with regard to cameras. I’m a documentary producer whose films in the past have been shot on the Varicam with a pro cinematographer and all the bells and whistles. I’m going into a completely different project now, very DIY and VERY low-budget, yet with the hope that great content and story will ultimately land a strong HD festival run and a cable broadcast deal.

I have been reading these forums until my head hurts and am still super confused about my camera choices. The one thing that sticks out is that the camera that’s ‘best’ depends largely on your shooting needs. So, here is the info about our project, and huge thanks in advance for a tailor-made assessment from the experts.

This is a verité-style, 85-90% run-and-gun documentary that will be shot largely indoors, in corporate apartments, hotel rooms, meeting halls, school rooms, and other such nondescript locations, using available light only. We won’t be dealing with super fast motion – some dancing, maybe. Interviews will be informal, off the cuff, and largely unlit. We will be mostly shooting handheld, possibly with a shoulder brace. Some shooting will be outdoors, but this will be the exception rather than the rule. The director and producer will be doing shooting/sound – we have some experience with cameras, but very little compared with most cinematographers, so we would like the option to run auto and need a camera that is user-friendly/easily learnable. In most situations we will have the main subject mic’d with a wireless lav and use a boom mic for our second audio channel. We expect to shoot 200-250 hours of media and would like to shoot 24P. Probably 720/24P due to storage space for editing. We need excellent low-light capacity.

Post-production, we will be editing in Final Cut Pro on a dual-core 3 Ghz Intel MacPro. We’ll likely do a fair amount of graphics designed in Adobe After Effects. There will be some SD archival media, but it’ll likely make up only less than 5-10% of the overall film. Our camera is by far our most important acquisition tool.

We are looking in the $3000-$6000 range (but would prefer the low end of that range, 'cause we've got to buy audio gear, monopod, gear bags, etc. as well) and are mostly considering the Sony FX-1000, the Sony Z5U, the Sony EX1, the Canon XH-A1, and the Panasonic AG-HMC150. I've always used tape, but I'm not afraid of tapeless - I love the sound of the HPX-170 but I am concerned about the storage space I’ll need for editing and archiving DVCPro-HD media and ESPECIALLY the cost of P2 cards. I wish it were affordable to have enough cards for a day’s shooting without having to download in the field!! 'Cause many days we won't have field support. I very much liked the Panasonic DV cameras and am intrigued by the HMC150, but I’m concerned about post with the AVCHD codec, as we are editing in Final Cut Pro which does not support native AVCHD (again, storage issue, plus transcoding all my footage -even to DVCProHD - via a 3rd party software like Toast is a bit scary to me). The EX1 sounded perfect once I realized it can use adapted SDHC cards, but it's the priciest of the bunch and sounds bulky and difficult to operate hand-held. My director was told by a sales guy that the Canon has the best autofocus and auto controls, but it only shoots interlaced footage and I've heard elsewhere it is an inferior rig - that there's chromatic aberration at full wide, its LCD screen is too small, etc. The FX-1000 doesn't have dual XLR inputs, though I guess I could use a Beachtek.

Our most important priorities are:
1) User friendliness and good auto functions*** MOST IMPORTANT!
2) Good low-light capacity
3) Good audio capacity
4) Easy to handle hand-held or with a monopod

It would be great to have a histogram view and we will mostly be shooting wide, so a good wide-angle is a plus.

So, here are my questions:
--Based on all these, thoughts on what camera would be best for me?
--Which are the most user-friendly of these cameras?
--Is all HDV created equal?
--Is the AVCHD format truly visually superior to HDV?
--What is the difference between “native 24P” (the Z5) and “24p over 60i” (the FX-1000)?
--Am I missing an important consideration (or camera)?
--Is HDV, when mastered to HDCAM or D5, acceptable for blowup/broadcast?
--Is HDV really as terrible as I've been warned with regard to timecode breaks, capture problems, and render times?

I know this is very very broad and a lot of questions but I would very much value your advice, based on the constraints and needs of this particular project.

THANK YOU!

All the best,

Dylan

If I may...

You have asked for a camera that does not exist. The holy grail. Cheap, cheap media, easy to use, good in low/no light/ good auto features. It's like asking for an SUV that seat 8, hauls 10k pounds and gets 70mpg. Oh, and fits in a compact spot. So since your camera doesn't exist you need to make some choices. If it's got to shoot in low light, you need big glass and big sensors. That's the EX1. But since autofocus needs LOTS of light to work even marginally, you're stuck.

Honestly, given your budget and your parameters, any camera in this price range is going to look like awful. It won't look good on the web, much less for broadcast. You won't get decent existing light indoor footage until you're up in the Varicam/F900 range. And even then it's dicey.

so let's answer your specific questions:


None. You seriously need to rethink your production. Especially, if you want to broadcast this.

Probably the Panasonic or the Canon.

For the most part, but the cameras that shoot it are not.

Depends GREATLY on the camera. I'd put the HDV coming out of my EX1 against any of the cameras you listed.

Not a heck of a lot when you get right down to it.

Yes, lights.

Doesn't matter what you master it in. It's still HDV. Good enough for some broadcasters and broadcasts, unacceptable to others. In low light, not good enough for anyone most likely.


Depends on the NLE. Some do better with the footage than others. You mentioned FCP and I think there are known issues. But I'll let the FCP guys tackle that.

If you want to see existing light shots from an EX1, I'll post some stills. I have them here on my laptop. Some I just took tonight in fact. It can look decent, but there's no WAY I'd submit it for broadcast.

Shooting 200 - 250 hours of footage, even at an obscene 60:1 shoot-to-keep ratio, would be overkill for a 3 hour mini-series. I honestly think time would be better spent in pre-interview and screening subjects for interviews than "going fishing": roll the camera and see if we get anything useful.

I GUARANTEE that no one is going to be able to sift through that much footage with an attentive eye and ear. Some of your best stuff will be left on the cutting room floor to fester because no one will remember it's there.

Ouch! But I hear you.
 

After days of reading, I too feel I am searching for the Holy Grail - or at least, I'm in the world of Shakespeare - every camera has a fatal flaw.

Rethinking the production for lights is not an option, due to cost and personnel. We're stuck with our scenario. We can throw up the occasional light or lights for some of our more fixed shooting scenarios, and we can do basic lighting for interviews, but when we're on the move it's pure available light and fly-on-the-wall documentary style.

I'd love to see your stills. How does the EX1 handle, hand-held? I've heard troubling things about its ergonomics. And are the controls reasonably learnable for a novice?

You say HDV is HDV but not all cameras that acquire it are created equal. How would you compare the HDV from, say, the Sony Z5 or Z7 to the HDV from the Sony FX-1000?

And does the XDCAM from the EX1, in your opinion, beat all of the above?

My feeling is, even in an ultra low budget, ultra indie doc like this it makes sense not to skimp, in terms of cost, on the primary acquisition source. Maybe getting the EX1 is worth is worth the extra $. But there's no question of going to a Varicam or F900. I know I have to make choices... I'd just like to make the best choice possible, within the constraints of this project.

Thanks so much for your insight, even if it hurts :)

I'm not saying go to a full lighting package. Something like a Zylight would help tremendously:

Zylight - Intelligent LED Lighting



I'll add some stills and point you to some things that will help you understand where you're at.

The Z5 and Z7 are going to be better most likely. At least from reviews I've seen. But I haven't had any of the cams in my hands, so I can't swear to it.

Yea, I think XDCam from the Ex1 is better than the HDV of any of the above cams. I'd also say the HDV from the EX1 is better than the above cams, primarily due to better sensors and better glass.

Have you looked at the cost of rending a Varicam versus buying an EX1? How long are you planning to shoot? If you're thinking of shooting 200+ hours, I'd have to guess you're going to shoot for some time...

I got plenty of pain to share! :)


This is a link to a test I did of the EX1 in 1080/24p in exactly 1 footcandle of light:
Sony EX1 Low Light test on Vimeo


Here is an older test where I rated the EX1 at 3200 ISO:
Rating the PMW-EX1 at ISO 3200 on Vimeo


This is a still life I did shortly after getting the camera with 35 FC of light:
Teapot Dark on Vimeo


In the attached images, the LLTest2 is the EX1 in Cinemagamma4 in 1 FC of light.


There is zero processing on any of the stills or vimeo vids. You can download the vids to get past vimeo's awful compression.

Nice work. One basic question:How do you download a clip from Vimeo?
I don't see an icon to click for downloading, and right clicking doesn't bring up a download option. I'm sure its so obvious, that I'll feel really stupid.
Thanks in advance, and for all of your great test shots - PK

I would look at the Sony EX1 or EX3 cameras,
1/2" chip great in low light.
Card based recording which is so easy to use and getting cheaper.
Image is really great.
Full HD and various recording rates without a problem.
Good price for the features it has.

Downside.
Chew's through batteries.
EX1 is a bit hard for extended hand held.
Rolling shutter when, stobe lights are on, still camera flashes.
Downconverting from such a high resoultion might be a bit hard if you shoot crops, trees, water and some flowers shows.
Great camera, go for it.

Simon

That's my feeling as well. If you want to go to broadcast, they're far more acceptable than anything else you mention, and have a reasonably easy work flow as well (with SDHC cards). You can use them in 1080p/24 mode, and the front end will do justice to the format.

I find the zebra abilities particularly impressive on these cameras, the only ones I know about that can rival a true pro camera. They're the only sub-$10,000 cameras I've come across that I could guarantee QUICKLY and reliably hitting accurate exposure with. Think of them as cheap pro cameras - the others you mention are really expensive consumer cameras.
Which is why the EX3 is better than the EX1 for what you want. Especially if you use V-lock batteries via an adaptor, which solves powering issues and makes the camera more ergonomic at the same time, as well as allowing easier use of such as on camera lights, radio mic receivers, etc.

The serious con must be price, and the EX3 is obviously dearer than the EX1. Maybe renting may be a better option? Alternatively, bear in mind that it will have a far higher residual value after you've finished using it!

Choose a camcorder blindfolded, and then go work it hard. You'll find they all bring home the goods; all have miraculous powers to capture images and sounds in near impossible situations. It's very often we, the camera operators, that are lacking. Successful filmmaking is much more to do with your shooting and editing decisions than ever it is to do with your kit, believe me.

Delivery, not process. Person, not camera. Experience not money.

tom.

Tom - if I was employing a builder to work on my house, then given the choice of a craftsman with a limited toolkit or someone of more limited abilities with the best toolkit in the world, guess who I'd choose?

But having booked my favourite craftsman, I'd be far happier if that individual turned up with the most appropiate tools for the job. They may not even lead to a better job, but he may be able to do as good a job far, far quicker with power tools than a hand drill and a screwdriver.

Good tools - or most appropiate tools - don't automatically make for the best job. But they can make it a lot easier for the right person.

Quite so David, but Dylan the original poster was looking for a camera in the $3000 range - and this most certainly does not cover 'the best toolkit in the world'. That's why I say he could choose any camcorder in this price bracket, it matters not a hoot. It's his experience as a craftsman (to use your word) that really matters.

tom.

No, but it may allow for the use of a basic power drill over a hand drill! :-)

And there are (big) differences between cameras when it comes to working in low light, for example, to say nothing of workflow - Dylan identifies issues such as the effective need to transcode AVC-HD footage if using the 151. Transcoding 200 hours of AVC-HD could take days!

I reckon $3,000-$6,000 corresponds to about £2,100-£4,200, and last I saw the cheapest available in that price range is probably the HMC151 at about £2,600. The EX1 (albeit not the EX3) also scrapes in at the top end at about £4,000 in the UK without any memory, but I'd still say that would be a far better choice, even if it does mean a bit of stretching - and it will have a higher resale value.

But price is only one of the criteria Dylan lists, for example: "Is HDV, when mastered to HDCAM or D5, acceptable for blowup/broadcast?" I wouldn't like to say whether HDV is or is not acceptable, (and it would depend on who's doing the broadcasting!) but what I would say is that XDCAM-EX is far MORE LIKELY to be generally acceptable. That's before we even think about 1/2" chips.

I'm right with you David - the EX1 is the bullseye he should be aiming at. But in his price-bracket, especially with his line that says, 'We are looking in the $3000-$6000 range (but would prefer the low end of that range, 'cause we've got to buy audio gear, monopod, gear bags, etc. as well)' the EX1 does not get a look in.

You and I and he know that 'audio gear' can and should cost over £800 for the mics (basic shotgun, Rycote and radio). And the shoots he describes will demand spare batteries, recording media, an on-camera light, a £170 monopod, a big Kata case. This is bare minimum.

In some ways his head will continue to hurt because his aspirations and budget are not in the same league. Until one starts to match the other more closely, I'm afraid the EX1 is out and the 151 is tops.

tom.

Scroll to the bottom. Look near the bottom on the right.

I firmly disagree. Pretty much everything that's out today fits that description.

But there is no HDV coming out of your EX1.

One of the most successful programs ever to air on Discovery -- The Deadliest Catch -- was shot primarily on HDV in low light. Content is king. Content trumps format every time.

Firmly agreed. In my opinion, Dylan's money might be better spent on hiring the right owner / operator rather than buying gear. But as far as the gear is concerned, *anything* will suffice; today's HD camcorder landscape is an embarrassment of riches. XDCAM EX would be a great choice; I'd place AVCCAM second, but there's nothing wrong with HDV. There is no wrong choice here. Operational skills will be the primary limiting factor of image quality, and certainly not camera or format selection.

Ok.

Sony says it is, and my NLE recognizes it as such.

True. But there was NO OTHER WAY to get the shots. Put that same premise on land and try to sell that show with no lights. Yes, content is king. But when the content doesn't stand well away from the crowd, it had better be darn good technically.

Yes!
 

Yes! Content IS king! In the past our films have done quite well -- we're embarking on this project with the full realization it won't be technically flawless, but with the expectation that our storytelling abilities will trump the rest.

And given that we are NOT the greatest craftsmen, as you put it... which camera do you think will be the easiest to learn to operate properly? Especially if we practice, practice, practice?

I am leaning toward the EX1 'cause of the image quality - alas, we can't afford the EX3. My director is leaning toward the HMC150 'cause it's lighter, better ergonomics, and seems more user-friendly.

We will be following the stories of several different people in a verite style a la Maysles' Salesman. That's why the insane amount of footage. You're right, though - ESPECIALLY 'cause there's no much of it, transcoding it all would be a huge drag.

Got to get my hands on an EX1 and hang out with it a while. See if it's hiding an 'easy' button somewhere :)

The EX1 will absolutely suck if you have to handhold it, but a simple shoulder brace should take the edge off. It's also pretty forgiving. It's my first HD cam and with resources like this forum, I was up and running in no time.

The files are easy to cut, even on a laptop. If you trim while you shoot, you might get everything on 1 or 2, 1TB externals. Or don't cut and have 4TB to deal with in post. With P2 you'd have an INSANE amount of data. The HMC would be less data to deal with, but you couldn't do any over or under cranking if that matters.

Hmm
 

Thanks. Is the EX1 just heavy or poorly designed for handheld or both? We are thinking of getting a StasisFlex and a monopod, to help with support, but will def be going hand-held some of the time.

Also - we will be shooting unpredictably for 3-4 months, so hiring an operator or renting gear isn't an option for us.

You have all been such a help.

Both. It is VERY left-side heavy, so holding it with just your right hand gets tiring quickly. And the grip is pretty poorly designed. It's also heavy. After shooting with it for a few months, I took my DVX out of the bag and it felt like a toy. Literally. I was shocked.

I have NOT heard great things about the StasisFlex, but there are some other good units out there. Do a search here. There was an Indian unit that got pretty high marks and was quite inexpensive to boot. If you REALLY do have to go handheld, look into the FigRig. I know some people think it's odd, but you can really use it a lot like a handheld, and it really takes the edge off the shakiness. I LOVE mine for what it does. It's not a steadicam, do don't confuse it with one. But I was amazed at what it did for my handheld work. Download the small video and really give it a watch. And keep your mind open.

I quite like hand-holding the EX1 because it's swivelling handgrip is wonderful, clicking into many different positions for hi and lo shots. Only problem is it's a good 4½" from the camera's centre-line, so unbalancing the camera laterally.

The Figrig works well but means that you must have a camera that allows LANC control of exposure. Letting go with your left hand to dial the iris down half a stop is too much for your right wrist to bear, and can put a wobble in the footage.

If you're fit and strong and want the best, then go for the EX1. The 150 won't be any easier to learn and it'll never match the picture quality of those big Sony ½" chips, but it's a damn sight lighter. Both cameras will run on the SDHC cards BTW.

tom.

The EX1 has far more going for it than simply image quality, though the difference between the two is indeed night and day. Low light performance, easier codec for editing, true manual lens, FAR better viewfinder, capability to do overcranking/timelapse etc, the list goes on - my personal favourite is how the EX has dual zebra striping in the same way as a pro camera. That's not to say the 150 is a bad camera, but you get what you pay for. The surprise to many people is that you get so much more for such a relatively small difference in price.

As others have said, the disadvantage of the EX1 is the increased weight when used handheld, there is no denying that. In other respects I'd say it's more user friendly though - factors such as the manual lens, the better viewfinder, and those zebras again. I'd prefer to keep those, and just put up with having to use a shoulder brace.

Not trying to pitch a favorite at all, I don't own one.

A canon xh a1 has great capacity for image adjustment and fits the lower end of your bhudget. I have seen plenty of footage shot off them and it can be stunning in the right hands. I believe it would be a great run and gun camera as well. Put it on a spider brace and go!! You can pick them up used under 3000!!!

Chris is right, but this is agreat camera.

If you haven't checked out the JVC PRO-HD line, you should. Real 24p. The stock lens is OK for doc, but don't zoom past 50 or 60mm if you can help it. You can always rent or buy a better lens. Pick up a HD200 for about $3,500 or so at BH or other reputable place.

Also JVC is releasing a couple new HD camcorders that record to XD-Cam-Ex on to cheap SD cards. Something to consider.

A tv station I recently worked for utilized the EX1 and EX3 for news gathering. I was one of the few that shot on the EX1... and I thought it was a great camera. Hand held isn't the best... and if it wasn't for the incredibly expensive cards I'd be saving my pennies for one.

We shoot to SDHC. $35 per hour. Save your pennies.

Camera Bought - Great but One Problem
 

Hi all - thank you for ALL your most valuable insight... I had 99% decided EX1 but when my director and I actually went to hold them and play with them, it became out of the question - just too bulky and heavy and very difficult to hand hold... We went with the Panasonic HMC150 and so far we're happy with it - it is easy to handle, footage looks good (considering), and auto works well - we are slowly learning the manual controls.

Only problem so far is that ONE card - when trying to log and transfer in FCP - gave me an error message: '"NO NAME" contains unsupported media or has an invalid directory structure. Please choose a folder whose directory structure matches supported media.' Its directory looks exactly the same as the directory for the dozen cards that worked... any ideas what could be wrong? What might have happened to screw it up? What is the correct directory structure for AVCHD? How might I be able to repair it? If one of the files is corrupted - how do I tell which one? And how do I fix it?

It is a bit disconcerting that - if I can't resolve this - I have 'lost' 10% of the media I've shot so far. I'm using a Kingston 16GB class 4 card, brand new - first 3 times worked fine.

Again, THANK YOU for all your thoughtful responses and help.

I would have thrown another hat into the ring. Sony Z7. It has interchangeable lens capability. You can easily adapt Nikon lenses if you need a lot of telephoto. Maybe not the absolute best but certainly very good in low light. And with a good broadcast lens with f1.4 capability, you will be comparable to the EX1 in low light. The batteries are dirt cheap compared to the EX1/EX3. And the batteries last a long time. It can record on tape or CF cards. Tape is cheap. The CF cards are dirt cheap compared to the SxS cards or the ridiculous P2 cards. You could outfit yourself for extended periods away from electricty and computers much cheaper and easier than almost anything else that has been mentioned. The EVF is far superior to the EX1 or anything else anywhere near this price range, so critical focus is much easier to achieve when you don't have a field monitor handy. It is a great piece of equipment.

Tape is cheap, but after going to a tapeless workflow, most people aren't happy to return to it. Even with the cost. SDHC is pretty cheap too, offers most of the advantages of tape, and offers tapeless workflow. This is the great tipping point to the EX1 over many of it's competitors for most of us. If you can get past the CMOS issues (or they don't factor into your shooting) then the EX1 becomes the gorilla in the room in it's class. The EX3 is a bit more but REALLY pushes the game forward with timecode, genlock, and interchangeable lenses.

I still think SDHC wins here. You can put 20 hours of footage in your pants pocket and walk away. Try that with tape.

Have you focused an EX1? I did a 5 hour outdoor shoot last weekend without a field monitor in sight, and my focus was on the money every shot.

Yup. I have used the EX1 several times. Awesome camcorder. But the EVF on the Z7 is head and shoulders better. The Z7 is just that much easier and quicker to nail the focus, from my experience with both cameras. Obviously you are not talking about using auto-focus. Right?

Yes tapeless work flow is cool but tapes aren't dead yet. Plentiful, cheap and readily available everywhere. Obviously, since the Z7 can do either, that is a point in it's favor.

While I haven't priced SDHC cards, I wouldn't think that they are significantly cheaper than CF cards. Plus you still have to put up with the hassle and expense of SxS to SDHC adapters.

Besides the battery expense and run time for EX1 batteries will more than tilt the scales in favor of the Z7 on the total dollars spent.

On the other hand, you forgot to mention that the EX1's XDCAM EX has silver status with the Discovery Channel. Which could have been an advantage for Dylan, for sure.

But since Dylan has already made his choice, this is all a sterile exercise anyway.

I am curious though, Perrone. Have you shot with the Z7?

Never had the pleasure. Sounds like a neat cam.

Theirs a much better chance that you’ll get people who will be able to help you if you start a new thread in here:
Panasonic AVCCAM Camcorders - The Digital Video Information Network

Of course
 

Thanks very much. I'll re-post.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me much prefer straight MP4 files over AVCHD.

However, if you're able to read the data off of the card with your computer, you can probably recover your footage. What you're looking for is a bunch of files that end in .MTS

There's a tool: VoltaicHD | ShedWorx
and the manual process I used:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/avchd-for...-software.html