HDV in broadcast
 

I'm interest to know if anyone here is using the new Sony HDV camera in broadcast production that is actually airing on a network. I'd love to hear about you pipeline, and what is your delivery is?

Do you down convert to SD? If you stay native HDV, do you broadcast in 24p or 60i.

As I'm moving into production on a new series, I'm weighing the options I have at this moment (up to 6 months from now). The fact that Avid is not supporting the FX1 as native till around September or so has me concerned. I looking to HDV as a cost effective way to ensure I have a market 10 years from now.

(Please if you can limit responses to those who are working HDV broadcast or are extremely versed on the subject)

thanks,

Michael

anyone using HDV in broadcast?

Search the threads, you'll see that JAG has used it, Nightline is now using it, WFAA in Dallas is shooting with it, but I don't know if they've delivered for air yet.

what I'm most interested in is getting it mastered in 24p, as networks like Discovery theater are/looking to broadcast in 24p. and things will certainly move that way in the future, I want to ensure that I call sell my series.

News whould surely be broadcasting 30i at this stage with no desire for lingevity.

Thanks for the comments though, it is nice to know what is HDV.

Michael

There isn't a 30i, there is a 30p or 60i, but since you didn't ask about 24 fps in your original post, there wasn't a way to know that you were seeking information on 24.
You can't broadcast in native HDV. Isn't possible. Most broadcasts are going to go out 60i or 30p. Nothing is aired at 24p. It might be acquired at 24p, but when it's broadcast, it becomes 30p or 60i. There is no 24P in the broadcast standard. Pulldown is inserted.

For SD broadcast that is true.

However, for HD broadcast, the ATSC provides for 24p and 30p native broadcasting at either 1080 or 720 resolutions.

True enough. I guess I wasn't considering all the options. Jumping around from board to board sometimes leaves you with one subject in your brain while replying to another. :-)

We're using it in BBC Wales.
My mate has just shot a short drama on the Z1.
It was shot in HDV and down-rezzed to SD for editing.
He told me today that it performed very well, but the hardest part was focussing. They had hired in a HD monitor for the director, so at least there was a check. This particular director is used to shooting things tight and with lots of movement of actors, so my mate had his work cut out - especially as he's used to Digibeta with all the trimmings...
Everyone is very pleased and I'm looking forward to seeing it in the edit suite.
I've got some projects for broadcast as well and my producer colleague is keen to start using my FX1.
Of course, everything will be broadcast in SD, but shot in HDV.
All our stuff is 16:9, so this camera has really filled a niche for us.

Robin

so with the Z1 you can shoot in HDV then download (or whatever you call it) to you computer as SD? My problem right now would be upgrading the computer and the programs. But if I got the camera now I would be able to edit either with my final cut express or maybe at least upgrade that so I could edit 16:9.

I'm not sure how the iMovieHD works. But my iMac would probably not be fast enough anyway.

But if I got the Z1 and could shoot in SD, DVcam etc I could still get by for now.

I still haven't heard much on how the Z1 looks shooting in SD, DVCam.

The Z1 looks much like the PD 170 in DV mode, it's a very good good DV camera, not amazingly remarkable. You can shoot in HDV, downconvert in the camera to SD, and save your EDL for a later re-edit in HDV if you'd like. That's the most cost-effective use of HDV cams at the moment.

I very much like the sound of that production flow: shoot HDV, download as DV, edit as DV, tell the edit system that the DV files are offline, reimport as HDV ... output as HDV.

But I'm confused -- the flow described demands that timecode be preserved on transfer, and demands that the _same_ timecode be transferred whether the format is DV or HDV ..? I admit that sounds possible to me, even likely ... but my reading here suggests that timecode preservation doesn't happen ..?

Please explain.

GB

Now *I'm* confused. Where in the thread are you reading about timecode?
FWIW, timecode is created when you finish the final product, and timecode will be on whatever your finished product is if you're delivering for broadcast. I'm not sure if you *could* deliver an HDCam without T/C on it.

We are talking about HDCAM? Colour me confused -- I was reading this as an HDV thread.

As for the reference to timecode, it was in your previous post: "You can shoot in HDV, downconvert in the camera to SD, and save your EDL for a later re-edit in HDV if you'd like."

I'm lost ...

Let's try and keep it simple!!

OK, for BROADCAST here goes:
1. Shoot HDV
2. Edit HDV
3. Output to either HDV, or using an HD/SDI card, output to HDCam.
4. If you output to HDV, you must then transfer the HDV to HDCam.

No broadcaster will accept an HDV file/tape at this time. That may well change one day, but for the moment, no one will accept it. Most broadcasters need to get it into their system via SDI, and there currently are no HDV decks or cameras with SDI built in.

Timecode will be present on either the HDV master or the HDCam master. The timecode will originate in the NLE used to edit/create the project.

Hopefully this clarifies things for everyone?

Thanks, but this doesn't address my confusion:
"The Z1 looks much like the PD 170 in DV mode, it's a very good good DV camera, not amazingly remarkable. You can shoot in HDV, downconvert in the camera to SD, and save your EDL for a later re-edit in HDV if you'd like. That's the most cost-effective use of HDV cams at the moment."

I _like_ the sound of that! You suggested shoot HDV, edit DV, then save an EDL for an HDV re-edit. Frankly, the whole business of output to HDCam & timecode on _that_ output is a new topic -- this thread and your earlier post were on a different topic ...

Which is what I still am confused about: Your proposed production path from the earlier post suggests that _source_ timecode is preserved on transfer (how else to get an EDL?), that the same timecode is used for both HDV & DV download (how else to get an SD EDL to work with an HDV reedit?) seems ideal to me. Did I misunderstand that post? Let's please _not_ talk about HDCam output, which seems a minor final step, nor about timecode presence on the final output ... it is the earlier stages & the EDL that interest me.

Thanks,
GB

OK, let's try to take this in order.

Geoff, you brought up timecode, which is not part of this thread, so I had to respond with where the timecode comes from and how it relates.

No, the final render of a project does not retain original timecode in the final output, because it can't. An EDL is part of the project, not a final render. It's merely a listing of the timecodes used from various tape sources, compiled into one project. When you render that project out, or print it to tape, a new timecode is generated for the entire project, which is as it should be. Timecode in the original media CANNOT be preserved in the final output to a master. The project retains the original timecode, the timecode is still preserved on the original source tapes, the MASTER has a new timecode generated in the compilation of the various source media and output of same.
But whenever you shoot anything with the Z1, the timecode is embedded in the tape, it stays in the tape, and is never stripped from the tape unless you erase the tape and re-record over it. If your NLE supports EDLs, and most do, you can always go back and recapture the HDV as HDV, or capture it the first time as HDV and edit/downconvert to SD. Or, you can downconvert to SD in the camera. In all cases, the timecode remains on the tape.

Does *this* make sense? If not, I ask you either read the existing thread on timecode, or start a new one since this thread is about using HDV in broadcast.

I'm sorry we are on separate pages here ...

I have been producing for broadcast for nearly twenty years. Every project I have ever produced was deeply and intimately entwined with timecode -- when EDLs were entirely paper, before computer were allowed into edit suites -- we recorded the timecode from the source tape to identify the sequence in the EDL. Any EDL we produce today is essentially the same -- the EDL references the source tape, the source tape _timecode_ ... so in my reading, it was you who first referenced timecode in this thread when you indicated the DV EDL could be used to produce an HDV EDL ...

I don't understand why you keep talking about 'final output timecode' ... as I've tried to state, I couldn't care less about that. The specific question I have relates to EDLs, which relate to source tape timecode ...

When you capture HDV is the source tape timecode preserved so that the EDL refers to the source tape & more importantly when HDV is downloaded as DV is the source tape timecode preserved so that a DV-EDL can be later used to generate an HDV version of the project?

That's all I want to know. I don't need to hear anything about HDCam, SDI or output timecode .... valuable stuff all, but not remotely connected to the thread I thought I was reading about a production path that allowed parallel production of a DV and an HDV version with EDL reference to source tape timecode.

Thanks, and apologies if this is not the thread everyone else was following.

GB

<<<-- Originally posted by R Geoff Baker : I'm sorry we are on separate pages here ...


When you capture HDV is the source tape timecode preserved so that the EDL refers to the source tape & more importantly when HDV is downloaded as DV is the source tape timecode preserved so that a DV-EDL can be later used to generate an HDV version of the project?


GB -->>>

Geoff, your question is confusing because:
a-it's relevant to the NLE/Capture system. Most capture systems are capable of retaining the source T/C. The CAMERA sends the T/C whether it's DV or HDV. How your NLE/Capture application ut

b-The thread is on the subject of WHO is using HDV in broadcast, not HOW HDV is being used in broadcast.

Are we all clear now? Again, if not, please start a new thread.

I have started a new thread specific to my question. Thanks.
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39934

"The Z1 looks much like the PD 170 in DV mode, it's a very good good DV camera, not amazingly remarkable. You can shoot in HDV, downconvert in the camera to SD, and save your EDL for a later re-edit in HDV if you'd like. That's the most cost-effective use of HDV cams at the moment." This is the message I'm following up on, for those chasing a similar question.

Cheers,
GB