Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

I've been looking through all the posts and replies regarding HD cameras -e.g. which are better than what?, what to get for this and that?, etc. and I am still a little ambivalent as to what to get next week... yes, next week (03/2012). I have a few projects coming up and I finally need to let go of my XL2s MiniDV and switch to a HDV, chip camera. Here are my choices so far in order of preference:

1. Canon XH-A1S - top choice because it uses SD cards which I've found a lot simpler to integrate into the workflow.
2. Panasonic XF 100HD - would be my top choice except for the P2 cards which I've never fallen in love with
3. Canon XA10 - second choice only because of its 10x lens (and not 20x as in the XH-A1S)

That is it so far. If there are any other suggestions for a camera I can use from everything from handheld docs, to interviews, to dramatic scenes, and broadcast quality - let me know. My main specs are - good optics, good sound inputs, service, and a +/- USD$3k cost.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

The Canon A1s records to tape not SD. The SD card is only to store settings.
There is no such thing as the Panasonic XF100. You may mean Canon XF100.
Neither the Canon XA-10 or Canon XF100 are HDV camcorders although they may have a mode to record that format.... but I thought I would point that out in case it was important... since you were lost.

When I moved from my XL1S, I throughly enjoyed a real 3 ring lens that let me adjust iris, focus and zoom all on the lens. Canon does not have a solid state 3-ring camera in your price range. The Sony AX2000 may be one to look at as well as the Panasonic AC-160.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

My error. I meant the Panasonic AG-HVX200A. I've worked with this camera and it's quite good except for the P2 card. There is nothing wrong with P2, it is just that it adds the need for a P2 adapter, conversion, etc. Not a big deal, just personal quirks.

Regarding the Canon XF100 HD - it has dual CF slots for video, and SD for stills and metadata, 4:2:2 sampling, 1/3", 1920x1080 CMOS sensor, with rec modes from 50Mbps @1920x1080 @4:2:2, down to 25Mbps 4:2:0 @ 14401080. I'm not clear what you mean by "Neither the Canon XA-10 or Canon XF100 are HDV camcorders although they may have a mode to record that format..." The lowest listed resolution is 1280x720. The compression is JPEG-2, and the file format is MXF which is natively compatible with my editing systems. Correct, not HDV as such, but what are the advantages or disadvantages?

Please explain. (and I thought this was going to be easy)

BTW - thank you for steering me away from the A1s - the recording format was not obvious.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

I read your post as specifying you wanted an HDV camera and were looking at the Panasonic XF100HD. That's what the post said and I thought you meant Canon XF100.

HDV is a specific format for recording at high definition but on a mini-dv tape. So when you said you wanted that format, I was only pointing out that it's a detail to look into that the camera you pick has a mode to record that format. If you really only meant you wanted an HD camera, then there's no sense talking about HDV. Other than the Sony Z5 and Z7, HDV cameras record to tape.

THere are plenty of discussions of these cameras here on DVinfo. You will find plenty of people comparing etc. If you have a specific question, search on it and then ask it if it hasn't been asked.

If you choose an AVCHD camera, search around to see if your computer/NLE will handle it or plan to transcode it to a format it can handle.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Thank you for the clarification, Les.

Yes, I am looking for the "best" HD camera I can get for $3k AND that records on chips and not tape. I, along with most, have stopped using tape. The last few jobs I've done specified delivery on hard drive. The last project never saw tape. It was a studio recording direct to chip and transferred to hard drive by the studio. That took much longer than either I or the studio were prepared for. Since the rough material had to be "prores" it took close to 3 hours to transcode less than 60 minutes of raw camera material.

Thank you for the input, and if anyone else has any suggestions, just send them this way. As of now, I'm leaning heavily toward the Canon XH-A1S. Unless I hear suggestions otherwise, I'll be at B&H Video on Monday (I live in NYC - they are a local store.)

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

That camera is a tape camera

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Ozzie,

It appears to me as if you're a bit confused... This is OK, there's a lot to be confused about when you're trying to buy one of these cameras.

Please, stop and think about what you want, don't rush it. Another day or two won't matter, this is an expensive purchase.

You say you want a "chip" camera. Do you mean SDHC? Compact Flash?

Thnk about all the other requirements: the lens (how wide? How long a zoom you need?), the ergonomics, the image quality, adjustability, recording formats (1080 60p? AVCHD? Do you need 50mb/s recording?)

There's a million things to think about. I apologise if all this is obvious, we just don't want to see you make a wrong choice here!

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

The Sony z5 and Z7 record 25MBS HDV format which can be easily edited on your computer without any transcoding to prores. You have to add the MRC1K unit to the Z5 to get tapeless recording. It's included on the z7. Both are 3-ring, 3-chip cameras.

The Canon XF100 is a single chip one ring camera that records 50MBS format.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

The Canon XF100 meets all your requirements, and more.

HDV is a semi-extinct format, and is no longer actively developed or supported by any major manufacturer. HDV is tape-based, and the tapes are running out. So if you're investing in a system that you need for next few years, forget about HDV.

MXF is not a format, but a container/wrapper. Think of it as an envelope that is 'recognized' by many different postal departments in different countries. Other widely used containers are MOV, AVI, MP4, etc. MXF is A okay. Some programs like to remove the contents from the envelope and re-wrap it in their own envelope, but most professional programs do this without altering the contents inside. At least we all hope they do.

For the kind of camera you will be using, the most common compression formats are either MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 or H.264 (a special variant of MPEG-4). HDV was built on MPEG-2, but most tapeless systems opt for H.264 or different flavors (called AVCHD or whatever). Some still stick to MPEG-2 (like XDCAM), and in absolute terms they are all similar to each other for real world practical use (as long as they are compared fairly). If you have 50Mbps of anything in the $3K price range, I'd say that is excellent, and cause for tears of joy.

Rather than compression, containers and bit rates, what you could be looking for instead are:
1. The quality of the lens
2. The low-light performance of the sensor
3. The audio capabilities
4. Quality of the microphone, if any
5. Warranty and service
6. Weight and weather performance
7. Ease of use - how fast can you get the footage into your computer?
8. Ergonomics - how long can you hold that camera before your hand falls off?
9. Does it have AF/AE/Focus assist/scopes/handles/mounts?
10. Can it fly?

Hope this helps.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

So, apparently, you do broadcast work --- do you shoot it yourself or hire somebody to run cameras for you? ---- and you apparently work with a studio that uses Mac software (FCP 7??) that requires time consuming conversions for some HD formats (apparently AVCHD and ???), and you are in New York.

Rather than just running out a buying "something" go to B&H or rental stores and lay hands on the cameras. Buy some media (say an SD and/or CF card) and rent a couple of the cams that you are considering. Maybe you like the Canon XF100? So, shoot some video. Go through the checklist that Sareesh gave you. Take those SD and CF cards to the studio and see if they still need to have it converted to ProRes or whatever. See if the cameras can do what you want it to do.

The XA10 is a nice little camera, but it: (a ) is little --- the antithesis of the the XL2 cams you are used to using and maybe not suitable for the kind of shooting you want to do; and (b) it records AVCHD which likely is a format that your studio will need to convert to ProRes.

You seem to like the XHA1s a lot. Have you actually handled one? You do understand that it can only record to cards ("chips?) only if you also get an external recording unit such as a Sony MRC1k? But then you've got issues for how to mount the recorder without unbalancing the camera and you are over your $3000 budget. (The XHA1s, I believe, is retailing for about $2700 and the MRC1k units for $750, so the total package is $3500.)

If you are looking at AG-HVX200A, then get a P2 card, do some shooting and see how it works for your editors.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Sareesh,

Thank you for the detailed reply. The list you made is excellent, except all those are the given for me. The first thing I look for are the details you mention. At the moment my decision will be determined by the recording medium - i.e. SD, CF, P2 (not MiniDV), size of the CCDs, with ideally 3 CCDs.

After reading all the comments and checking in with a few colleagues, I am leaning toward the Panasonic AG-HVX200A (3, 1/3" CCDs (would prefer 2/3" or 1/4" but for $3k I'll compromise), good optics, sturdy build, records on P2, with SD for metadata storage. It also records on tape if necessary (although I can't think of any reason why I would use tape, and for now it just takes up room). Yes, I have been confused, mainly because the current assortment of technical details, even the shifting mindset, is rapidly growing and changing. What was "the best and latest" a year ago is now ancient. Even the AG-HVX200A is a two year old camera.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

It's great you've taken a decision, and the HVX200 is a neat camera, except:

1. It is four years old (made its debut in 2008), and
2. The P2 technology has made way for AVCHD on SDHC cards in Panasonic's own upgrade, the AF100. One has to wonder why this is the case.

However, if it ticks all the right boxes, then why not? All the best with your purchase.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

> (3, 1/3" CCDs (would prefer 2/3" or 1/4" but for $3k I'll compromise)

Is that a typo and you meant 1/2" instead of 1/4"? 1/3" is bigger and generally considered better than 1/4".

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Errr, it's a lot more than 2 years old - but more importantly, it's now discontinued! ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/381410-REG/Panasonic_AG_HVX200_AG_HVX200_3_CCD_HD_Format.html )

One crucial point to consider here is not just the cost of the camera but of the package. That includes a few things, but maybe most important here is memory cost. With cameras at this price level this is where P2 puts cameras like the HVX200 (and it's successor) at a disadvantage in the market. The camera cost may seem OK, but the cost of camera plus memory is a different matter. Did you do a costing on the HVX200 to include the amount of memory you will need for a given running time before downloading and reusing the cards? (A 64GB card lasts for about an hour.)

Secondly, the HVX200 only recorded to DVCProHD in high-definition (recording to DV tape was SD only) - that has now been largely superceded by AVC-Intra in Panasonics current line up. It was 1/3" chips - but only 960x540. That may have been OK at introduction, but with modern displays it looks soft when intercut with newer cameras.

I'm afraid $3,000 for a broadcast spec camera is an oxymoron. It doesn't exist, at least in the generally accepted sense of the term. Of the cameras you've mentioned so far, I'd say the Canon XF100 is by far the best compromise. Certainly the CODEC is broadcast spec by any reckoning. I'd also consider looking at an EX1, probably secondhand at the prices you're talking about - the 1/2" v 1/3" chips will likely make a far bigger difference than codec differences amongst cameras in this price bracket.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

No, it's not: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/696066-REG/Panasonic_AG_HVX200APS_AG_HVX200A_1_3_3CCD_P2.html
Re: the "high" cost of P2 cards. The cards have come down in price since the format was first introduced. And, since they can be reused thousands of time, the cost becomes negligible if you really use the camera.

If you don't want the ability to record SD to miniDV tape, then you might be better off buying the HPX250, though.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Whoops, my apologies - I was, of course, looking at the 200, not the 200A. I don't think it changes the real point, though. The 200A still looks long in the tooth, and Panasonic have moved on themselves in terms of both codec and chipset.
I think the way to look at the cost is as a one-off capital cost, same as the camera. In this case, for (say) 3 hours of recording you'd need 3 64GB cards - at $645 each. In other words, the camera cost of nearly $3,000 becomes a camera plus memory cost of nearly $5,000!! Unless you always want to use the camera for downloading, there also then becomes the cost of a separate reader to think about - much more expensive than one for CF.

I think it's quite valid to talk of the high cost of P2 cards - in this case they are effectively increasing the price by about 65% compared to body only. For other technologies, the figure is nowhere near as high.

Obviously you'd need to buy memory for any camera - but for the XF100 the equation is 32GB per hour, and the cards are cheaper per GB anyway. Three hours recording becomes a lot, lot less than the $1,935 of P2.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

I think the HVX is a wise decision. Used HVX's and HPX170's are awash upon the market, and available for far, far less than they're really worth. The HPX170 is a marginally better camera since the tape drive is often moot (higher-capacity P2 will record hours and hours and hours of SD footage, with no dropouts, ever) and it adds a few very very nice features... however it's also slightly more expensive used. I have an obscene number of operational hours on my 6-year-old HVX, and it still works as new. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one used.

IMO, the HVX's biggest faults are its softish image and insatiable hunger for light... it does not do well in dim, unlit conditions, or with a ton of fine detail. But give it enough light, and point it at the right things (for instance, people) and oh, mama... it's a dang beautiful thing.

The "high cost of P2" only becomes an issue if you absolutely MUST record 1080i or 720p60... if you're shooting 720p30 or 24p, you can use the "Native" recording modes (where no duplicate frames are recorded) yielding 2-3x the recording time on a P2 card. Shoot SD, and time-per-card on a 64GB quadruple (now you know why the tape deck is pointless).

Regarding some previous comments, P2 has not been set ot the wayside... it's still alive and kicking in the newest Panasonic HPX professional cameras. There are rumors of price drops and size increases forthcoming. The codec HAS been updated to AVC-Intra (a far different beast from AVCHD). In no uncertain terms, DVCPROHD kicks the everloving crap out of AVCHD as a capture format. I wish upon wish that my AF100 used P2 media. Most everyone that uses the AF for serious work winds up strapping on an external recorder to bypass its post-unfriendly codec.

If the buyer is super budget conscious, there's the option of a Firestore... an FS160 will give you over 3 hours of ready-to-edit 1080i recording time for about $600 (equivalent costwise to CF).

Last, if price is REALLY the concern here... what do you get for your money vs., say, a XF100?

OK... lets say your budget is $3500. You buy a XF100, one extra battery, and 3 hours worth of CF cards. You're pretty much done at that point.

Budget the same $3500 towards an HVX... HVX, used, maybe $1500. Probably comes with a few cards, but let's assume it doesn't... so you're in about $1800 for 3 64GB P2 cards. The extra $200 will get you 2-3 spare batteries.

Pretty much even money, right?

Well, the XF shoots at high resolution, full raster, which is a point for it. It also has HDMI out, which may be worth a point. The HVX has CCD chips, which, especially if you've ever shot moving subjects, is a big point for it. It also has a longer zoom range, a better lens, better controls, more ND options, better low light performance (on paper, at least), four channels of audio recording, a wide range of over and undercranking speeds, and looks a little more professional than the XF100, which is just a hair above a handycam in size. Once you get a little extra money, you can begin buying up the HUGE array of accessories for this camera sold off by videographers chasing the latest and greatest.

I think the XF100/105 are great cameras, but at that price point, they still lose out to the granddaddy of all prosumer HD cameras.

If you can swing a XF300/305, EX1R, or a HPX250, they're much better cameras... but at 3-5x the cost of a used HVX.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

True enough - but only valid if you can accept not only 720p recording, but at 24 or 30 frames per second - "film look" as opposed to "smooth motion".
I'd make a big distinction between the 2/3" P2 cameras and those like the 200 or the 250. For the latter, a sensible amount of memory seriously affects the overall package cost - for the more expensive cameras it's a far smaller percentage of total cost. P2 may not go away from the high end, but a lot of what were P2 sales in the HVX200 category have now gone to AVC-HD cameras or the likes of the Ex or XF300.
Your figures sound reasonable AFAIK - but is it really valid to be comparing new camera costs with one that is used? And don't forget that P2 reader - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/683343-REG/Panasonic_AJ_PCD2GPJ_AJ_PCD2GPJ_Single_Slot_P2_Memory.html But the message is clear - if Ozzie does decide to go with the HVX200, forget about a new one..........
All of them are better, true, but what about (say) a used EX1 in that case. May still be dearer than a used HVX200, but a lot better. And even if the basic body cost is higher, you don't then have that $1,935 cost for P2 cards. (At 3x $645 for 64GB, which seems to be current B&H price.)

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

On DVX User's "for sale" section, there's a NYC fellow selling a barely used Panasonic AC160 for $3500... if we're talking used, THAT'S what you should get!

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??! -Found!
 

Everyone,

Thank you for all your efforts at "enlightenment". I took all your suggestions, placed them in a plain brown paper bag, closed my eyes, and the camera I pulled out of the bag was...

[Let me interrupt by saying, I am happy with my luck...I mean, educated choice, thanks to all your comments, explanations, and recommendations.]

...the Panasonic AG-AF100!! I bought it yesterday at B&H, along with a Lumix G Vario 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 ASPH/MEGA O.I.S. Micro Four Thirds lens, a Novoflex - Nikon to Micro Four Thirds Lens Adapter (now I can make use of all my Nikon lenses), and 2 SanDisk - 16GB SDHC Memory Cards.

I have a simple shoot next week. The learning curve is steep but I hope to learn at least how to find the record button, and choose one suitable recording mode before the shoot. I will report back as soon as I have spent a day shooting. So far, the camera exceeds all expectations.

By the way - Chris Hurd - as always, you run an excellent site. Possibly the most helpful group of people anywhere.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Very nice choice. Very happy to help if you have any questions, been running an AF for a bit over half a year now and am very pleased.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

I have spent the weekend learning what the AF100 can do. All I can say is WOW! A "VIDEO" camera that calls for everything I ever learned about photography, optics, and film! With adapters that will allow the use of just about any still camera or film lens; over a dozen shooting modes including over crank and under cranked filming ... err - videoing (?); time-lapse; built-in ND filters; and on, and on. I love this camera!

I'll post a full report on the camera as soon as I have some practical, in the field, experience with it. But for now I do have a question- how do I get the camera to work with a Nikon lens? I'm sure it's a matter of me not knowing enough about all the settings, and there are many. It's also not an emergency since I'll be shooting with the Panasonic lens I bought with it. I am trying to use a Nikon 28mm AF lens with a NOVOFLEX MFT/NIK adapter. It fits the lens, and it fits the camera, but all I get is a black screen - no image. I am also prevented from recording. Does any one know what setting I'm missing?

Thank you in advance.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Ozzie, does the lens you are using have an aperture ring on the lens barrel? If not, you need to get an adaptor with a built in aperture lever. Nikon lenses, by default, have thier iris closed (ie if you detach the lens from the camera, the iris will be closed and you cannot look through the lens at all, unlike EOS lenses, which are fully open by default.) The correct adaptor will allow you to open the iris by manipulating the little metal tab that extends out of the lens near the rear element - one of the benefits of having a mechanical system, rather than all electronic such as the m4/3rds and EOS lenses.

If your lens does have an aperture ring, then you can ignore the previous paragraph, and hope someone else has a better answer!

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

"...Nikon lenses, by default, have thier iris closed (ie if you detach the lens from the camera, the iris will be closed and you cannot look through the lens at all..."

Good suggestion but no cigar. Even with the old Nikkor AC lenses (24mm - one of my favorite) which are manual, with nothing automatic or electronic, and with the diaphragm open all the way (f2.8) I still get no image. I'm still searching for the setting that will let the CCD turn on when there's a lens adapter along the way.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

You'll need to go into the AF100 menu and set the "Lens check" option to off. Then you can shoot with non M43 lenses.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Aha! That is it! I see it's in one of the menus, but how to get there? Ah, there is the question. With the extreme flexibility of the AF100 comes a labyrinth of menu choices which at first appear short and direct, but in actuality they branch into many little traveled paths. I know the setting can be changed in the user file, in the meta data, but it is how to get back there that is the problem. Can you give me an initial direction? As I said originally, this camera has a steep learning curve. I've been trying to get into the mindset of the designers but so far I'm not succeeding.

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

I'm thinking now that this has moved to specific issues and questions about the AF100, that discussions and questions be in threads in the AF100 forum here:
Panasonic AVCCAM AG-AF100 Camcorder Forum at DVinfo.net

Re: Lost with all the rest-what to get??!
 

Thank you, Les. I've posted my question here -> http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/panasoni...ml#post1723133

I'll continue my thread here once I have a better knowledge of the AF100.