Seems to me that this issue will largely resolve itself by people learning to transfer video data on something other than non-compatible tapes, giving us even more reason to move away from a tape-based workflow. I don't own a DVCProHD or HDCAM deck and I don't worry about incompatibilities between those formats; why fret now just because HDV has so many variations? I can't see losing much sleep over this problem, even if it is a nuisance.

If that example is any indication, then incompatibilities between HDV variations which are a problem for producers to deal with simply won't survive in the marketplace. If all the variations survive that will show it wasn't a big deal after all; if they don't then the problem is a self-correcting one.

You mean kind of like VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS?

Mark,
Have you ever had a client bring you a "VHS" tape and it's really an "S-VHS" tape. Similar confusion you bet, but worse. Lets suppose they have a VHS, S-VHS and D-VHS all with different record rates, SP, LP, EP, etc. and they wanted to edit a television program from them. If you have only Pro gear, you won't even have EP as a playback option so you need yet a 4th deck. (Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Canon - HDV, sound familiar?)

Anyway, I am betting you might be able to edit with the Avid pulling video from the camera and occasionally loosing contact, but I am betting TC is an issue and you have no accurate 422 control. That's what I am missing in my work flow and the workflow of the post house I am presently at.

We are working on a major PBS series here and had hoped to use two of the JVC HD100s as 3rd and 4th cameras to suppliment our Varicam footage. Without accurate 422 control and real TC, we cannot do that and need to rent more Varicams. Those puppies aren't cheap.

Anyway, I'll let the pot simmer for a while and we'll see what kind of soup we end up with.

Sean

No. They are, in-fact different formats with different names. And S-VHS decks play and record all VHS. And have totally different target markets. Not a good comparison, unless to illustrate a difference with the current HDV tape mess.

Timecode control seems to work fine, but without some way of burning timecode into the HDV footage it's impossible to be certain. I stick the tape in the camera, I type in the timecode from the shotlist, the PC captures to disk by Firewire... generally speaking, it just works.

So are you saying that timecode control of HDV decks doesn't work for you? As far as I'm aware, HDV timecode is built into the data stream like DV, so it should be very hard to screw up... unless you choose to use external timecode control for some weird reason.

To me, complaining about problems with 422 timecode control of an HDV deck seems a bit like complaining that your gasoline car doesn't run well on diesel. The timecode is in the Firewire data stream: why not use it?

So are Beta and VHS, which was what the original comment was about. And, pedantically, so are HDV1 and HDV2.

There is no official HDV1 and HDV2 - thus, the point of this whole thread :)

When you need to capture via HD output from the deck, and I'm speaking of the BR-HD50 here, you will need to use the HD outputs, not 1394 and this would mean you need 422 control. You would need this, as we do, if you are going to remote mount the decks in a central tape room to have professional tape operators feed the decks and monitor layoffs, etc.

Our tape room is about 120' from any particular Avid suite in the place. We have always used 422 control and either SDI or multi line outputs from the Avids, etc in sending video and audio around the plant.

The common response would be to tell folks to just buck up and put a deck in every suite. For us thats 7 additional decks and if we should have to put 1 or two in the tape room for the ops to make dubs, etc, we need about 10 of these decks. So OK, that's an additional $3k-$5k per so that adds about, averaging, $40K to our equipment budget, not including the cables, and means every Avid suite operator must now be able to manage our tape library from their suite. That also means some tapes will just plain disappear, cause that happens when everyone in the place gets to handle the tapes whenever they need one.

You see, it's a lot more than just saying, hey, that's OK, we'll find a way to make it work when you just have one Xpess Pro suite. There is a gap, and always will be it seems, between the mom-and-pop places, like I run in my spare time, and a professional post production house, like my day job.

The next person that tells me I don't need 422 or accurate TC is going to get such a smack in the back of the head...

On the flip side, Mark, send me the details of how you know TC is actually working for you. Are you able to see the TC when you look at individual clips? Not in the video but in the TC option on the source window, etc. If you are, that's great. However if it is occasionally dropping out, that's still not a professional answer, that's still a problem.

Last thing, try this. On a capture, when you stop, does the time code on the last frame of the capture match the time code for that same frame on the deck/camera?

I have noticed in Vegas, the TC that is showing is always a bit ahead of the TC the BR-HD50 is showing on the display. I think I know why but I am curious what other find.

Sean McHenry

Actually there is. Both JVC and Canon refer to HDV1 and HDV2 in their sales training materials; I have sat in on presentations by both manufacturers and both made reference to HDV1 and HDV2. Since they're two of the leading four manufacturers of the HDV consortium, I think that's official enough.

From my perspective that's just CYA by both companies since it's not on the official site and Sony does not refer to it or support it. 24F does not equal 24p on the JVC, so how do you call it HDV2 with a straight face?

And there was me thinking that this "storm in a teacup", "HDV is Broken", run around in circles screaming because we don't know what to do with ourselves nonsense, had been consigned to the "isn't it time to move on and discuss something meaningful" graveyard it so richly deserved...

It's like watching a dog wrestling with a bone that's lost it's taste; and all the people gathered around - who the dog is hoping to impress and involve - have turned away and moved on. Somehow the dog doesn't get it that it's antics have gotten stale and uninteresting, along with the bone it's salivating over.

Sony refers to iLink, yet it's still FireWire. Sony is in its own world. They may never actually put it in any of their marketing material, but yes Sony is HDV2 and yes they do refer to HDV2 in their sales training material.

Every single PowerPoint about HDV I've ever seen from JVC, Canon and Sony, all refer to HDV1 and HDV2. All of 'em. So yes I can say it with a straight face and do so all the time, because that's what it is. And that's exactly how we're going to continue to refer to it here, by the way, and you really need to understand that.

By the way, 24F does equal 24P. 24F looks like 24P, edits like 24P, and is now part of the HDV specification like 24P. It pretty much is 24P. All of this "sky is falling" nonsense about playback compatibility and capture issues will disappear and become moot in due time as hardware and software support for it becomes available.

I agree wholeheartedly. This thing is cooked to a crisp. I'm not wasting any more time on closed minds. If I wrote off a particular format, I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time ranting and railing about it; instead I'd find more productive things to discuss. Geez... if you don't like something, why dwell on it, unless you're convinced that because you don't like it, nobody else should either. And that's a mentality I can't abide.

I think we need a new rule: you can't whizz on something here unless you've actually used it.

This thread is completely broken... therefore it's closed. Whew.