I really need some help in picking a new HD camera
 

For the past two weeks, I have been digesting as much as information possible on the HD camera's that are available now, or the ones that will be available later this year. I am somewhat lost in the wood.

First, let me introduce myself. I am a 22-year old inhabitant of the Netherlands. My dream is to become a filmmaker -- both fiction and documentary. When I was 17, I wanted to go to filmschool But my mum advised me not to do so. So I opted for an International Business & Management study. Which I do not regret. But now, five years later, I really want to move on with my dream. For the past year, I have been shooting with the HDR-HC1, a great little camera, but nothing like a professional one. I sold it last week, and I am looking for a new camera now. Last year, I also studied at the photo academy of Amsterdam for five months.

What do I want to do with the camera? As mentioned above, I want to make great films and documentaries. For film, I want to make short films. I really believe they are more powerful then longer movies. As for documentary, I really think each one is good for its own purpose. As the two things above do not rack in much money, I want to shoot weddings/events or company presentations in order to return my investment.

This are the camera's that I am considering at this moment:
(pricing shown is local, so in the Netherlands)

- Canon XH-A1 (4000 EURO)
- Canon XL-H1 (9500 EURO)
- Sony HVR-Z1E (5200 EURO)
- Sony HVR-V1E (4900 EURO)
- Panasonic HVX-200 (6200 EURO)

The JVC is a no go as it lacks auto-focus, which for events/weddings is not a very good thing. You must get it right the first time.

The Panasonic HVX-200 is a nice camera, but the P2 cards make it more difficult to decide if this is the right camera for me. If I want to shoot a wildlife documentary, I need to spend like $5000 on storage media. But on the other hand, it is $3000 cheaper then the XL-H1.

The XL-H1 looks like a killer package. I like the idea of a shoulder-mount camera. And back in the day, the XL-2 was the camera I wanted badly. On the other hand, I doubt that I will need different lenses etcetera. So maybe I am paying too much for it in that case.

The XH-A1 is said to have the same imaging chips and image quality as the XL-H1... only for $5000 cheaper. It also has a LCD. But what you pay is what you get for normally, so there must be some offers.

I have always been a great fan of Sony. I like the brand, their products are always delivering and they offer a complete package. Look at the new V1 mini-site, and you must know what I mean. However, the V1... so far I guess I prefer a larger camera for handling purposes. The Z1 is nice but there are newer camera's out there. Also, the CineFrame is said to be of much lesser quality then the 24F technology of Canon.

Anyway, here are some questions that remain. For documentary, what setting do they normally use / is recommended (I live in PAL territory)?
- 1080i/50
- 720p/24
The same goes for event videography.

For film, there is no doubt that any good 24 progressive mode is desired. The Sony V1 and Panasonic HVX-200E both have 24/25 progressive. I heard the Canon's do a good job with 24F. How close can you come to 24p in post from 1080i/50? That's is something that worries me with the Z1... the cine-frame mode.

All these questions are bugging me at this moment. I already bought a new computer, with a 24" Dell widescreen. I only have to decide upon the right camera for my needs. If it even exists. But I do not want to wait. I want to get started before January 1st 2007... Also, as I switched from PC to Mac, I need to find a new editor as I was using iMovie and later Final Cut Pro. And as not every NLE supports all modes of every camera, I want to make a decision on which camera is for me before I buy a new NLE.

I hope people here can give me some advice / feedback. Feel free to share you thoughts. Don't feel obliged to answer all questions, I am already grateful if you answer some of them. Also, when you own one of the camera's and could tell me which kind of shooting you do, and how the camera works or does not work for you... I would be very happy.

Hello Floris,

I am about to buy an HD camera within the next few months too so I've been going through the same things you have been going through. I've looked at all those cameras you mentioned and for my requirements I have narrowed it down to the HVR-V1U (in your case V1E) and the XH-A1.

My main requirements are:

• Cost effective to own and operate
• Long run times
• Image quality and film cadence
• Small and lightweight

So I eliminated the HVX200 and XL-H1 due to high cost to own, operate and archive the footage (for the P2 system). Cost is important to me because digital technology improves so quickly I want to buy at the sweet spot of the cost/performance curve where the upgrade cycles won't affect me as much. Also, both the HVX200 and XL-H1 are IMO too heavy for their form factor. I have considered the JVC GY-HD200 and may get one in the future but for this camera I am going to start with a small form factor. It would be nice if Sony came out with a similar product for 1080P (1/3" compact shoulder mount) since 1/3" professional detachable lenses are becoming more common.

Between the V1 and the A1, I am leaning slightly towards the V1 because of the smaller size and weight and the possibility of better latitude with CMOS sensors (although we need more footage to see this for ourselves). But the A1 has the wider lens range which I like.

Either way, I don't plan to buy any camera until I've tried them out in person and have seen a lot more footage. So I know it's hard, but I would just relax and wait a few more months for the picture to get clearer and then you'll be able to make your decision.

In my experience the Canon XL-H1 is difficult to hand-hold for any useful length of time, so that combined with the high price makes it undesirable for event videography. Also, one of the main things you're paying extra for with the XL-H1 is the HD-SDI outputs, so unless you have a use for that the camera is expensive compared to other options.

My suggestion would be to wait until the Sony V1E and Canon XL-A1 are shipping and have been thoroughly compared to each other, then pick one of those unless you find a good reason to go with something else. Then let's say a few years from now you decide you want something even better, by which time there will be more HD cameras to choose from at reasonable prices - and you'll have a fine 'B' camera to use which didn't cost you an arm and a leg.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope more people will respond in here!

It all comes down to need. Is low light performance the biggest priority(and often is for wedding guys as prosumerHD is a fair bit worse off then prosumerSD cams to begin with), or is resolution in progressive mode more important?
The Sony comes very close to the Canon's resolution in progressive 25p mode and with a slight tweak can be easily converted to 24p(Do not shoot in the 24p mode!). In fact Cineform's software will do the conversion automatically on ingest, then your editing in a vlossless codec as well.
Have you read the DV.com's two HD shootouts?
Just finished reading your post and see your on Mac. Shame as PC rules the roost as far as HDV goes. You will have to ask which progressive modes of which cams are not supported in FCP. It may affect your decision. Can anyone help?

I am on Mac now, but I am switching to PC. My configuration is being build right now. I expect to receive it next week.

Your quoted prices are a bit off some of the current best prices in Europe.

You can 100% get all of the above for the following prices (Europe dealer, expressed in Euro's at current rates) :
- Canon XH-A1 Eur4000
- Canon XL-H1 Eur8020
- Sony HVR-Z1E Eur4880
- Sony HVR-V1E Eur4380
- Panasonic HVX-200 Eur5750
(taxes included.)
- and even those may not be the best rates in Europe. But they are all concrete prices, at prevailing x-rates, orderable now.

My advice is : XL-H1 is a big heavy machine and i just do not think that it is a good step to go from HC1 to that.
I consider the whole P2 thing to be too expensive, so my opinion is as expressed by a previous poster in this thread to get either the V1E or the Canon XH-A1. Which one? Well wait another month or two, read all the reviews that will be coming out, read user feedback from the first people to take delivery of these machines (I am friends with someone who is taking delivery in Europe of a V1E in less than 4 weeks time) and for DEFINITE go to a dealer and play around with these machines in your own hands.
By that point, you should be familiar with all the specs and nuances and details of these 2 machines and will probably be leaning one way or another, and hopefully playing around with them in the flesh, ONE of them will just feel 'right' and appeal to you more and hopefully thats the model that you were leaning towards in the first place.

Technique, lighting, audio management, basic skills as regards composition and also your editing skills are paramount in making documentaries and films, so remember that the cam is just a tool and the biggest factor in how your films/docs turn out will simply be yourself and your own skills.

I wouldn't totally rule out the JVC HD100. Yes, it has no auto focus, but personally I find an auto focus which occasionally wanders off with a mind of its own (just because something briefly passed if front of the camera) much more disturbing than a half-second focus pull at the beginning of a shot. The JVC is beautifully easy to focus, (as well as generally being a beautiful camera, ergonomically speaking) and as it has a proper manual focus, It doesn't have that annoying "ring keeps on turning forever" thing that some other cameras have. I suggest you give it a try, if only to prove to yourself that it's not the camera you want... (and yes, I've done a wedding on one, and it came out fine)

I'll post this link again, it's a bit old but good...

http://dv.com/news/news_item.jhtml;j...leId=177103305

Unfortunately there is no up on the actual 'handyness' of these cameras, but picture quality is defined down to the pixel.

I personally from that test would choose the HD-100 for picture quality, look at the examples from the trumpet tests and the stills. The jpegs from the Cinealta and the HD-100 in 720p, and compare them side by side. That's a sharper image in my humble than the others (except the native CCDs) at 'normal' exposure.

I find myself in the same position as you do, Floris van Eck. I'm looking to upgrade to a nice HD camera, and looking at the cameras you mentioned, as well.
I'm leaning towards the Canon A1 at the moment, because of price and features. However, the one thing that bothers me about that model is, I've read it's not the best camera for low-light conditions.
I do wedding videos, as well as, short films, and I would really like a camera that doesn't need big bright lights to get a decent picture in low-light.
Other than that, the price and other features make it very tempting.
I'm waiting until more reviews come out, and until I can try some of these cameras before I make a decision.

I believe the Sony HVR-Z1 is the low-light champion. Rated at 3 LUX, while the Canon's rate 4 LUX. Anyway, in the shoot-out that is linked above, the Canon XL-H1 scores only slightly worse then the Sony HVR-Z1. While the JVC and Panasonic have bigger problems in low-light.

Remember that at the upper ends of your price range, you can buy used pro gear which will give you infintely better images even if they're standard def.

chuck

Chuck, can you explain that a little bit further. What kind of equipment do you mean and what are the expected costs of that equipment?

If there will be any way for you to see the cameras in person and test them out in a store, this will go a long way in helping you to eliminate any doubt in whatever camera you decide to go with. Consider what it would take to find a location where you could do this.

You don't say what your budget is...

If you're just learning... I would instead of going with the high end Canon or HVX... go with the least expensive Canon or the Sony... which one will depend upon once you see real footage from the cameras yourself and I'd spend the extra money on lights, sound, etc... than buying the XLH1 or HVX...

I usually do not buy items based on price. I am a quick learner. I have outgrown like five different digital camera's in like one year. First I had a simple Kodak camera, then a Canon Ixxus, then a Sony F-727 then a Nikon D70 SLR.I sold the D70 because I wanted to do more then the machine could do. But as I wanted to become a filmmaker, I bought a Sony HDR-HC1 for the money.

I had that camera for like 8 months. At that moment, I wanted to do things I could not do so I bought XLR microphones with adapter, a Spider Brace etcetera. Now I want a camera that will not limit my creativity.

But it's easier to give a maximum budget, otherwise people can recommend cameras going from 200 dollars to 200.000 dollars...
An estimate would make things easier.

Anywhere between $ 3000 - 10.000.

Well,

you don't really need the interchangible lens system of the XL H1 nor the extra jacks from the XH G1, so a XH A1 would be a good choice.

For moviemaking, you shouldn't need autofocus, so a JVC could do well too.
And the V1 of Sony looks pretty promising, but it specs are very close to the Canon XH A1, which is cheaper.
The HVX has pretty low resolution chips, but has a filmic image, but it also has the very expensive p2 media, what you already pointed out yourself.
And the FX1 and Z1 from Sony aren't that good for filmmaking in comparison with the other ones.

All the extra budget could go to lights, audio, maybe even books,...

Hi Floris

I think there can be a tendency to overly hung up on the technology when starting out in film making. At your budget whatever camera you choose will in some way be deficient, in its controls, low light or some other factor. There is no perfect camera at any budget really. I know that doesn't help you choose a camera but it is true!

I have just finished writing two scripts and want to shoot them and I am in a similar position to you trying to choose one of the low budget HD cameras to shoot these films with. You know, we are spoilt for choice which is the real problem. I have narrowed the choice down to two cameras; the Canon XH-a1 or the Sony HVR-V1E.

I understand from another thread you can't really wait for the Sony as you want to get making films. If that is still the case I can't see any reason not to order yourself the Canon XH-A1 or G1. I simply do not see another current camera coming close to them. The XL-H1 will give you similar results for more cash; the JVCs only record 25p where as the Canons record 50i and 25p and the Sony Z1's picture quality is not up to the standard of the Canons for my money.

If the Sony HVR-V1 had not been announced there is no question I would have pre-ordered the Canon XH-A1 by now. It ticks every box, good low light, nice compact design, generously wide angled lens, huge control over the image and the camera really does capture HD images.

The reason I am waiting to see the Sony V1 is for its ability to handle a wide dynamic range which is the only thing that I can think of that it might improve on the Canon. I might get to December and realise I should have bought the Canon a month earlier! :)

Find yourself a good dealer and go check out the cameras. A good dealer should help you come to the right decision.

All the best

TT

p.s. don't get hung up on the 24p thing. It's dead easy to go from 25p to film without complicating matters worrying about 24p.

Looks like we are in the same league. I narrowed it down quite a bit. Basicallly it will come down to the Canon XH-A1 or the Sony HVR-V1E. So I will have to wait till probarbly November for the reviews on those camera's to arrive.

Another option is the JVC GY-HD200. It is a new camera for JVC with 720p/24, 720p/25, 720p/60 and 720p/50. So much better then the GY-HD100/110. The price will be around $8000. I am not sure if that's with or without lens. But I like the idea of being able to buy other lenses in the future. My only problem is that it might be too big to use conveniently in all situations, and the other one is that it does not have auto-focus in case I will shoot weddings / events.

The HVX-200 is definately not an option anymore. The same goes for the XL-H1.

Much research is a good thing
 

But beyond that it looks like you are rushing into a few unknowns. Citing consumer features like this and immediately condemning the choice might be a mistake. No JVC schill here. 3 Canons. All have their A/F function disabled.

Art is one thing, but experience is still a hot commodity. Your reference to getting it right at a wedding by using auto-focus is perfectly incorrect.

Funny, I also am in the same boat...

If I had to buy right now based on specs, I'd go this way:
HVX200 first then it's a tie between Canon A1 and Sony V1, and I'm leaning towards the Canon a little more. I don't like JVC, they look like a good buy,but we used to use JVC about 5 years ago and they would always break down.

The reason I choose the HVX over the other 2 is because of the following:
-over/under crank feature
DVCPro50 (4:2:2) SD (this cam offers more res options)

The Canon and Sony look nice, but I'd wait to actually see them or at least read a good review. Here this guy runs the Sony threw some extreme testing:
http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomon...ssue/7170.html

The reason why I have not picked up an HVX yet, is I'm waiting a couple of months to see if Panny does release something and to see how AVCHD will affect any future it may have. Besides, I also want to see what the NLE's do to support editing HD. HP/Intel is releasing new QUAD-core chips.
http://news.com.com/2061-10791_3-612...5459&subj=news

re pro gear:

Find a television broadcast equipment dealer -- they won't be a retail store -- and ask about used eng gear. You might be able to put together a dvcam outfit under $10k. You probably don't want beta gear, the decks and capture cards will cost too much. But some dvcam bodies do firewire. Do a search for "sony dsr dvcam camera" and look at 300, 400 and 500-series cameras for an idea.

Research carefully, though -- this is the land of $2000 batteries we're talking. Everything's sold a la carte. The learning curve will be steep and everything's manual and the viewfinders are black & white. Rent some pro gear locally, if you can. Sounds like your cup of tea.

Oh, I'll second the comment about not using autofocus at important events -- it'll bite you badly when you least expect it.

But don't spend so much time worrying about the camera -- get something and learn how to use it. Experience is more important than the camera.

I totally agree. But still, like I learned with my digital camera (Nikon D70), you are buying into a system. You buy batteries, adapters, cables etcetera. You can sell them with the camera, but it is easier to buy the right system. One thing for example is that I think Sony has a better system. They have multipe camera's (FX-1, Z1, V1, V7 that are all using the same batteries). It is the same with Canon of course, but Canon has only three models (two basically).

So the decision will most likely be between the Sony and the Canon. The JVC will likely be too advanced for me. But at the other hand, that will force you to learn it the right way... instead of learning how to work with a consumer type camera, and need to learn everything all over again when you switch to the professional type of camera (the ones with manual focus lenses) etc.

The JVC won't be too advanced if you outgrew your HC-1 and your D70, your a fast learner. get your hands on all the cameras your thinking about and check them out that way. Its the only way to really get what you want

Floris,

First off, go and watch these 2 clips, and then come back here.

http://www.davidcarstens.com/portfol...memberdemo.mov

http://www.midnight-film.com/ (and select trailer high definition).


clip 1 : Was shot with stock HVX 200 with 35mm adapter.

clip 2: Was shot with stock HVX 200.

After this thread of mine, you will get people giving you a bunch of numbers on how the HVX 200 is this and that. Keep in mind that after all being said and done, Panasonic produces the most film like images in prosumer camcorders (dvx100b and Hvx200). Everybody in the industry is trying to emulate Panasonic.

People can brag about specifications this and that, but in the end, it the final pictures on the screen that counts and speaks the most. If you are into narrative short Film making and documentary, IMO you cannot do wrong with the HVX 200.

In narrative film, you need Lighting, PERIOD and depending on what kind of documentary you are doing, you also need Lighting (mostly natural outside lighting). Unless you are doing a lot of run and gun and weddings, you shouldnt worry much about low light capability.

In narrative film, you rarely shoot for 30 minutes straight without a need to change cam angle, lighting, costume ....etc. Therefore, P2 should not present much of a problem. This coming spring, panasonic is sheduled to released 16 gig P2 card. Or, you can just get an external HDD for the HVX 200.

Videography is really fun and there is tons of stuff to be learned. I hope you have budget more money for all the accessories. Not to scare you or anything but for good narrative short film, consider the following.

a) A good tripod (at least a cartoni focus)
b) A good Mic (at least AT4073A for outdoors and Oktava MK-12 for indoors)
c) Wind pro, boom pole, Zep for (b)
d) A good pre-mixer (at least SD 302) and maybe an external recorder
e) Lighting (Kino, Arri or Mole) and grips
f) A Crane
g) A Dolly
h) A Stabilizer (at least a steadicam merlin)
i) Redrock m35 with plate
j) A Follow Focus
k) A Matte Box
l) An External Monitor
m) If you do not go tapeless with HDD, you need a cheap camcorder to be used as a deck.
n) ScreenPlay Writing, Editing Skills, Audio Skills, Lighting Skills, Special Effect Skills, 3D animation, Green Screening ...etc.

So, there, I doubt you will get bored with videography anytime soon. in Fact I have Seen ALOT OF PEOPLE THAT DROPPED videography for photography.

Good Luck and Have Fun !

That footage was nice.

I agree that you should not count out the HD-100/110/200/250. Interchangeable lens, pro layout, and an alias free non pixel shifted image. If you want to be a filmmaker, it simply leaves all other progressive shooting cams in the dust for the price. Go check out some clips.

I was ready to buy the A1. But the V1 was announced. I really was close to a DVX100 too, but just can't pull the trigger. I don't need a camera now so I might as well wait and see the reviews on the A1 and the V1. Both look pretty good.

I recently sold out my business of 20 years to become a documentary filmmaker and I appreciate your wish to get out there and start filming - although a couple of months doesn't seem quite that long for me after waiting over 20 years...

I'm also on the XH-A1/HVR-V1 fence. For the kind of run and gun, "one man band" documentary and event videography work I want to do, the factors that seem most likely to differentiate the two cameras for me are: 1. low-light ability, 2. auto-focus and 3. dynamic range. We won't really know low light ability until people start reporting back with more extensive tests. For other people, auto-focus doesn't seem to matter but for me the innovative fast auto-focus on the Canon could be extremely useful if it allows me to easily snap on the auto-focus when needed, then automatically revert to manual focus. Everyone wants more dynamic range and an extra stop of range is a big deal. The discussions about DOF in other threads have been really interesting too, but for the kind of work I want to do, it doesn't seem that critical.

I'm leaning towards waiting for more reports from the field, but if Sony pushes the ETA past mid-December, I might just have to jump on the Canon train. As others have noted, this choice represents an abundance of riches, and either camera should serve you/us well.

Good luck!

For low light, you are maybe better to look at a Sony Z1...

I am still puzzled. Although I pre-ordered a Canon XH-A1, I can still cancel that pre-order and pick any other camera. The HVX-200 is definately a no-go. I did some research, and it's just not the right camera for me. I have also decided to pass up on the HVR-Z1. The V1 will likely be a better choice.

So that narrows it down to the following camera's:

- Canon XH-A1 (4000 EURO)
- Sony HVR-V1E (4500 EURO)

- Canon XL-H1 (9000 EURO)
- JVC GY-HD200 (Probarbly 9000 EURO with 16x stocklens)

As you can see, I am ordered them so they compete on price/features. With the Canon XL-H1... I am not sure if I need the professional jack pack. But on the other hand, for an investment that I will use for at least three years it's nice that the option is there to start doing blue screen work. Also, the price for HSDI work and cards will likely come down in the next year or so. At this moment, all the cards and raids are not in my budget.

My main question about the XL-H1 is if the stock lens is adequate enough, and if not, which other lenses (and their price) I will be looking at. The wide-angle seems pretty bad... what are my options there?

About the handling in general. The XL-H1 and JVC GY-HD200 have a more professional style handling. I am not sure if it's difficult to swap from a handheld style camera to a shoulder-mounted style camera. Although I think the JVC is not the prettiest, for me it is the camera that mostly reflects the image I have from a professional broadcast/cinema camera.

The GY-HD100/110 did not have 720p/60 and 720p/50 which I believe is necessary for ENG and event videography. The HD200 fixes that major shortcoming. And that makes it look like a great package. I also understand that the Fujinon lens is the only true "manual-zoom" lens.

The only doubt I have with the JVC is 720p vs 1080i (in 24F or 24P mode). Are the differences very obvious or hardly noticeable?

I really want to thank everyone who replied to this post for all the feedback. I will go to a store and try the camera's out but I want to make sure that I go there with as much pre-knowledge as possible. People in stores also take into consideration their margins and personal preference. On these boards, I get objective feedback from many different perspectives. Thanks everyone!