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Mike Bagley November 16th, 2006 11:42 PM

Best Video Output With Affordable 3 Chip HD Cameras?
 
Hello Everyone,

Thank you very much for this site. A HUGE learning curve for me, but I've learned a lot in the short time I've been lurking. First of all I'm an Old School Beta SP guy. I know ZERO about HD. I mean ZERO. Having said that, please go easy on me if you can with my questions. I have searched but am now needing to buy a camera soon so I've decided to ask now. I hope that's ok. I will try to make this as short as possible.

I have a new client that wants to start shooting some pre-Olympic stuff. Everything in the beginning will be live shots only via a satellite truck or fiber optic. Eventually they want some ENG stuff on HD but the format and camera is soley up to me. For now though I am dropped from the sat truck a BNC cable, XLR's (IFB & PL of course too) and do my live shot. That is it. So I am looking for the absolute best video output from the following cameras: Canon XL H1, JVC GY-HD100, Panasonic HVX-200 and of course the Sony HVR-Z1U. Some of the fiber transmissions may be compressed so I'm also wondering if the outputs will be affected by this and if so which one is best.

My live shots of course are NTSC 4:3 format. Low light isn't an issue really as I light every live shot, but if one has a great output and shoots better in low lighting conditions that's a plus. Low noise is a big issue as any sat engineer will complain if there is a lot of noise. Lastly, we're also doing some studio work with a 73 inch HDTV as the backdrop. I simply roll a 30 minute static shot of the city and put it on the HDTV as to make it look like they are "in" the city. Since we're using an HDTV, I'd like to shoot this in HD and simply burn the 30 minute static shot to DVD. Keeping it all HD of course. Is there one camera that does this better than the others? NO editing at all, just a 30 minute shot burned to DVD.

I'm sorry for all of the questions and I hope they are not too pathetic. I've lived life with my Sony D30 for many years but now is the time to upgrade with this new client. I know some will suggest the new JVC200 or JVC250 as they have BNC outputs gen lock etc. and really is a truly "professional" camera, but with my purchase of the HDTV monitor ($4000 plus) and lighting etc. it's out of my budget right now. So the 4 cameras I mentioned are my only choices. IF none produce a truly "broadcast" quality 4:3 output please let me know. I'm also wondering how their outputs compare to my Sony D30? Older camera of course but larger chips. Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide.
MB

Chris Barcellos November 17th, 2006 12:05 AM

Though I've been a Sony user for years, I betting, based on the information from and shots I seen on this forum that the Canon will be the camera.

As to play HD on DVD, I assume you are going to play the static HDV video via a computer to the large screen using the DVI output. HDV will not be playable through regular DVD players...It would have to be standard definition if that is the route....Unless of course, you have stepped up to a high definition player....

Mike Bagley November 17th, 2006 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos
Though I've been a Sony user for years, I betting, based on the information from and shots I seen on this forum that the Canon will be the camera.

As to play HD on DVD, I assume you are going to play the static HDV video via a computer to the large screen using the DVI output. HDV will not be playable through regular DVD players...It would have to be standard definition if that is the route....Unless of course, you have stepped up to a high definition player....

Thank you very much for your quick response. I was planning on playing the HD static shot to the HDTV via a DVD player. That's what I do now but I'm shooting 4:3 Beta SP and using a 61 inch 4:3 monitor/tv so everything is easy. Shoot 30 minutes of video, burn it to DVD and play out to the 9 year old wide screen TV. Yuk. I have no problem purchasing/stepping up to an HD DVD player if that's what I need. And it sounds like I do. Since my static shot will be HD, I'd like to feed it to the HDTV in HD as well I guess. Whatever it takes I will go that route. Just wondering what all I need to do this? And is one camera better for this than others? I could shoot myself for not following technology and staying Beta SP all these years. I just found a "niche" and went with it. I have a lot to learn. Yikes!! Thanks again.
MB

Ken Hodson November 17th, 2006 04:53 PM

If you are considering the Canon XL H1 with its price tag, why not the JVC 200/250's?

Mike Bagley November 17th, 2006 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson
If you are considering the Canon XL H1 with its price tag, why not the JVC 200/250's?

I'm only considering the Canon because I can purchase a used one from fellow shooter for below what they go for new. Otherwise I'd cross it off my list as too much money. Anyone else have any input to the outputs of these cameras? Thanks.
MB

Chris Barcellos November 17th, 2006 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bagley
Thank you very much for your quick response. I was planning on playing the HD static shot to the HDTV via a DVD player. That's what I do now but I'm shooting 4:3 Beta SP and using a 61 inch 4:3 monitor/tv so everything is easy. Shoot 30 minutes of video, burn it to DVD and play out to the 9 year old wide screen TV. Yuk. I have no problem purchasing/stepping up to an HD DVD player if that's what I need. And it sounds like I do. Since my static shot will be HD, I'd like to feed it to the HDTV in HD as well I guess. Whatever it takes I will go that route. Just wondering what all I need to do this? And is one camera better for this than others? I could shoot myself for not following technology and staying Beta SP all these years. I just found a "niche" and went with it. I have a lot to learn. Yikes!! Thanks again.
MB


Mike:

If your step up to the HD DVD player, you will be leading the pack of most people on this forum... I know there is Blue Ray from Sony, and there is HD DVD-- can't remember who has one out-- Toshiba ?????? As I said, you could run it out of a card off a computer, and that might be cheaper than a player...

Mike Bagley November 17th, 2006 06:06 PM

Well, after looking at them online, I can see why few have them yet. $1000 for a Blue Ray and $500 for the Toshiba, they are not cheap. I could probably get away with shooting in 16:9 non HD (IF these cameras do this) and just burning that to a DVD and use the same type setup I have now. It would still look good I imagine. But I figure if I'm getting an HD camera and an HDTV, might as well go all they way. Too bad I won't have any of these toys at home. :(
MB

Graham Hickling November 18th, 2006 01:24 AM

The Avel Linkplayer2 is a good interim playback solution for around $200 - plays back HDV m2t from red-lazer DVD or across a network from a storage drive.

Carl Hicks November 18th, 2006 09:34 PM

Hi Mike,

Being an "old school guy" (me too, by the way), you will adapt much easier to the JVC GY-HD110U than the other three cameras you mention. Here's why:

1. The GY-HD110U (which is the current model - GYHD100 was discontinued several months ago) is the only one of the four that uses a true broadcast, detachable lens. The lens has real mechanical stops - what your are used to. The focus is manual only, and it stays where you put it. It will never change on it's own, and it responds instantly and predictably to your hand. This cannot be said about the other three cameras, which use servo-driven focus mechanisms. The iris ring and zoom controls are right on the lens, where you expect to find them, not somewhere on the camera body.

2. The GY-HD110U is the only one of the four that is designed as a shoulder-mount camera that will balance properly on your shoulder, using a professional battery system like Anton Bauer or IDX.

3. The GY-HD110U is the only one of the four that has a native CCD resolution that is one of the ATSC HD resolutions. It has a native resolution of 1280 x 720, using real progressive scan. The other three use CCD resolutions that are not found on hte ATSC chart, and then they do some sort of image processing and/or scaling to achieve an accepted HD resolution.

Regarding outputs: The GY-HD110U will deliver the following full bandwidth, uncompressed live outputs:

Composite - 480i/60, 576i/50 - choice of 4:3 or 16:9 in both cases
Component - 480p/60, 576p/60, 720p/60 - 16:9


This camera will produce broadcast-quality images. In fact, it is already being used by several broadcast organizations, including ABC, CBS, and others.

Regards,

Mike Bagley November 19th, 2006 12:17 AM

Carl, thank you so much for your response. Late on a Saturday night no less. I hate to ask another question, two actually but I must. The first may be hard to answer, the second you will know for sure.

1) Out of curiosity, how well does the JVC GY-HD100 or 110 "video output" compare to my Sony D30? It's an older camera of course but again larger chips. I'm for sure purchasing an HD cam, but just wondering how my D30 stacks up to these new cameras since it's quite old by now. Just curious, nothing more.

2) Does the new JVC-HD200/250 have a superior output compared to the JVCHD100/HD110? The thread about the HD200/250 "super encoder" has perked my interest with this new camera. If the HD100/HD110 will serve my needs with broadcast quality output then I won't pay attention to a D200/250 until I have more funds. Just curious if there's a huge difference that I will notice. Or more importantly the sat engineers will notice.

3) Sorry, decided to add a 3rd question. :) The HD100 would serve me just fine compared to the HD110 I assume, even though it's been discontinued? The "upgrades" from what I've seen don't seem make much of a difference for my live shot needs. If you know of a benefit with the HD110 over the HD100 for live shots only please let me know.

Carl, Thanks again and I apologize for the additional questions.
MB

Carl Hicks November 19th, 2006 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bagley
Carl, thank you so much for your response. Late on a Saturday night no less. I hate to ask another question, two actually but I must. The first may be hard to answer, the second you will know for sure.

1) Out of curiosity, how well does the JVC GY-HD100 or 110 "video output" compare to my Sony D30? It's an older camera of course but again larger chips. I'm for sure purchasing an HD cam, but just wondering how my D30 stacks up to these new cameras since it's quite old by now. Just curious, nothing more.

The D30 may be a little more sensitive in low light, maybe a stop or two. But the JVC camera should have a noticably sharper picture, since the native resolution is higher. And with the image controls that our camera offers, through the process menu, you can custom create just about any look you want.

Quote:

2) Does the new JVC-HD200/250 have a superior output compared to the JVCHD100/HD110? The thread about the HD200/250 "super encoder" has perked my interest with this new camera. If the HD100/HD110 will serve my needs with broadcast quality output then I won't pay attention to a D200/250 until I have more funds. Just curious if there's a huge difference that I will notice. Or more importantly the sat engineers will notice.
The encoder circuit comes into play only on recorded HD images. Live images on the analog outputs do not go through the encoder. The 200 and 250 do benefit from the better 14 bit A/D. This affects the picture quality live and to tape. The only way to know for sure if YOU will be able to tell the difference would be to do a side-by-side comparison. There are probably JVC Pro dealers in your area that could help with that.


Quote:

3) Sorry, decided to add a 3rd question. :) The HD100 would serve me just fine compared to the HD110 I assume, even though it's been discontinued? The "upgrades" from what I've seen don't seem make much of a difference for my live shot needs. If you know of a benefit with the HD110 over the HD100 for live shots only please let me know.
The price of a new GYHD110 is just a little higher than a GYHD100U, and I think worth the price to get several more features, and more mature technology. The actual image quality should be about the same. If you do decide to go with a GY-HD100U, make sure to get one that has been upgraded to the "A" version. All new stock sent to dealers since mid March of this year was the "A" version. We stopped shipping the 100's around August, and started up the GY-HD110U shipments.

Mike Bagley November 19th, 2006 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Hicks
The D30 may be a little more sensitive in low light, maybe a stop or two. But the JVC camera should have a noticably sharper picture, since the native resolution is higher. And with the image controls that our camera offers, through the process menu, you can custom create just about any look you want.



The encoder circuit comes into play only on recorded HD images. Live images on the analog outputs do not go through the encoder. The 200 and 250 do benefit from the better 14 bit A/D. This affects the picture quality live and to tape. The only way to know for sure if YOU will be able to tell the difference would be to do a side-by-side comparison. There are probably JVC Pro dealers in your area that could help with that.




The price of a new GYHD110 is just a little higher than a GYHD100U, and I think worth the price to get several more features, and more mature technology. The actual image quality should be about the same. If you do decide to go with a GY-HD100U, make sure to get one that has been upgraded to the "A" version. All new stock sent to dealers since mid March of this year was the "A" version. We stopped shipping the 100's around August, and started up the GY-HD110U shipments.

Thank you Carl. You've answered ALL my questions in full. Much appreciated.
MB

Ken Hodson November 19th, 2006 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bagley
Well, after looking at them online, I can see why few have them yet. $1000 for a Blue Ray and $500 for the Toshiba, they are not cheap. I could probably get away with shooting in 16:9 non HD (IF these cameras do this) and just burning that to a DVD and use the same type setup I have now. It would still look good I imagine. But I figure if I'm getting an HD camera and an HDTV, might as well go all they way. Too bad I won't have any of these toys at home. :(
MB

Microsoft external HD-DVD players are $199. But you have to plug it into your PC or Xbox360.

Mike Bagley December 19th, 2006 08:20 PM

I hate to bring up an old thread, but I have to ask another question. I tried using a Sony PD-150 today for a live shot. Simply using the video output on the camera. I have yet to purchase the JVC 100 cam so this was all I had to use at the last minute, borrowed from a friend. My D30 was rented. I have NEVER been more belittled by an engineer as I was today with the Sony. The problem: IRIS. There was NO in between with this camera according to the engineers. It was either too hot, or too dark. It's either one f stop or the next. NO in between. It was an absolute embarrasment. I moved the lights, did whatever I could and finally made things OK. My question is, (to Carl at JVC really) is will I have this problem with the JVC HD100 or 110? NO WAY is this Sony camera broadcast quality in any way shape or form. (yes I know no one said it was) Not to rag on it, but today was judgement time and I thought nothing of it to use this camera until the engineers became involved. Carl, will I have the same problem with the JVC 100 or 110? Thanks.
MB

Carl Hicks December 19th, 2006 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bagley
I hate to bring up an old thread, but I have to ask another question. I tried using a Sony PD-150 today for a live shot. Simply using the video output on the camera. I have yet to purchase the JVC 100 cam so this was all I had to use at the last minute, borrowed from a friend. My D30 was rented. I have NEVER been more belittled by an engineer as I was today with the Sony. The problem: IRIS. There was NO in between with this camera according to the engineers. It was either too hot, or too dark. It's either one f stop or the next. NO in between. It was an absolute embarrasment. I moved the lights, did whatever I could and finally made things OK. My question is, (to Carl at JVC really) is will I have this problem with the JVC HD100 or 110? NO WAY is this Sony camera broadcast quality in any way shape or form. (yes I know no one said it was) Not to rag on it, but today was judgement time and I thought nothing of it to use this camera until the engineers became involved. Carl, will I have the same problem with the JVC 100 or 110? Thanks.
MB


No, you won't have this problem with any of our ProHD cameras. We use REAL professional lenses that have a completely variable iris, just like your D30 camera.

It sounds like you have not actually used one of our cameras yet. When you eventually do, you will quickly see that it operates much like your D30.

With the free IDX power package promo that's going on, now is a great time to buy a GY-HD110U.

Regards,

Boyd Ostroff December 19th, 2006 08:37 PM

Not completely sure what your issue was, but there are a few things on the PD-150 which have been improved on the newer Sony cameras. The PD-150 in manual mode has an iris that moves in noticeable "bumps" as you turn the wheel. The PD-170 improved on this by doubling the number of discrete iris settings from 12 to 24 (iirc). The iris wheel on the HVR-Z1 is a huge improvement on this also, and it allows smooth adjustment of aperture as you shoot live and a much better tactile feel to the knob.

Another issue you might have run into if you were using the analog outputs on the PD-150 is that they don't add the correct amount of setup. The result is that everything looks too dark when connecting a monitor to the s-video port. This has been extensively discussed over the years.

I can't address your JVC questions, but I think it might be a little harsh to judge Sony by the 5 year technology you were using which wasn't intended for manual operation in a live analog environment. The PD-150 has certainly earned its place in broadcast ENG though and has gone where larger cameras wouldn't have been able to.

Mike Bagley December 19th, 2006 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Hicks
No, you won't have this problem with any of our ProHD cameras. We use REAL professional lenses that have a completely variable iris, just like your D30 camera.

It sounds like you have not actually used one of our cameras yet. When you eventually do, you will quickly see that it operates much like your D30.

With the free IDX power package promo that's going on, now is a great time to buy a GY-HD110U.

Regards,

Thanks Carl. I cannot fathom having this problem when I buy a new camera. I definitely learned today "pro-sumer" is NOT in any way shape "professional". Today I learned the difference. 15 years doing this with Sony Betacams and NEVER a problem for live shots. NEVER. DARN (being polite) I was absolutely beside myself with this pd150. Do you have a link to the IDX promo? I'll search, but am feeling lazy at the moment. Sorry to rant people, but the stress level was 1000 today. I'm finally cooling off. NEVER again though. UGh.
MB

Mike Bagley December 19th, 2006 09:25 PM

I apologize being so harsh on the Sony. I have tons of friends who use them and love them. Today I had one of my friends bring his pd150 in for my live shot. He's the expert on this camera. I am not. The "bumps" in Iris you speak of WAS the problem. There was NO in between. Not even close. It was somewhat obvious on our monitor, and DEFINTELY obvious with the engineer on the other end. Who's English was terrible by the way so that made things even worse. Complaints to hell and high water though. I simply gave him a BNC to RCA adapter for the output. What he did with the camera setup only he knows. But he's been using this camera forever, so I'm sure he knows what he was doing. Again I didn't mean to be harsh. It sounds like a PD-170 would have been just fine for our needs. We didn't have one available. Again the frustration today has been huge for me, and getting yelled at in a foreign language is tough. And live television. As is having an unhappy client. My bad for being so negative.
MB

Carl Hicks December 19th, 2006 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bagley
Thanks Carl. I cannot fathom having this problem when I buy a new camera. I definitely learned today "pro-sumer" is NOT in any way shape "professional". Today I learned the difference. 15 years doing this with Sony Betacams and NEVER a problem for live shots. NEVER. DARN (being polite) I was absolutely beside myself with this pd150. Do you have a link to the IDX promo? I'll search, but am feeling lazy at the moment. Sorry to rant people, but the stress level was 1000 today. I'm finally cooling off. NEVER again though. UGh.
MB

Hi Mike,

See the bottom of this page for promos on both the GY-HD110U and the GY-HD200U: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/special_offers.jsp

Go for the GY-HD200U if you can swing the extra cost. It's well worth it. See this page for a comparison of the models: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HD...amcorders.html

Regards,

Mike Bagley December 19th, 2006 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Hicks
Hi Mike,

See the bottom of this page for promos on both the GY-HD110U and the GY-HD200U: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/special_offers.jsp

Go for the GY-HD200U if you can swing the extra cost. It's well worth it. See this page for a comparison of the models: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HD...amcorders.html

Regards,

Thanks Carl. Make no mistake, I'm not saying the the pd-150 is terrible. It's a great camera, as is the entire Sony lineup. The pd-150 just didn't suit my needs and I paid the price. Apparently a pd-170 would have been just fine. I don't mean to attack a certain camera or brand. Just a frustrating day. Thanks again.
MB


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