Adobe Production Studio VS Final Cut Studio 2
 

Are there any head to heads out there? I am an Adobe user on the PC so I`m most familiar with their products. I`d like to know how the Apple studio compares in each field.

Long time Premiere user (Little bit long winded advice)
 

Nathan,
I hate to say this but I am going to make the switch to FCP S2 this month. I have been using Premiere since version 5.0. I was never a huge fan of the A/B Editing I almost switched then but then Premiere Pro came out and I stuck with it. I have worked very hard to build my business and I am finally growing faster then I can handle sometimes. The sad part is that it is all in camera work. I have been passed on offline editing jobs because my workflow did not match with the post-production houses workflow. You might guess what they had in-house. Also most of the production people that I know and collaborate with are on FCP.

I truly believe that most of any editing could be done with Movie Maker or iMovie given most cuts in a show are straight cuts.

I think if you plan on being a company that is contained with in it self then by-all-means stick with Adobe products. I think they are great and have come along way from 5.0 and with Cineform backing them up on the codec side for HD you can't miss.

On the other hand if you want to collaborate and work with people with in your film/TV community I bet you would find that you need to go to FCP.

One thing that FCP has that Adobe does not have is more codec support right out of the box no need for additional plug-ins. I have not used the FCP GUI for awhile now so I can not give you concrete comparisons in that respect. All I can give you is my advice from a business stand point. It sounds like you are at the same crossroads I was at a few years ago. I look back on it now and realize I should have made the switch back then. I wish I was able to ask this very question on a forum like this and maybe someone would have given me something more to chew on besides how they compare in this feature or that feature. Everyone will have pluses and minuses to each program.

One final word is I would love to stay with Adobe but from a business stand point I need to switch to FCP. I believe that they are roughly the same program in today's market but with little differences here or there. The thing that I have a hard time with is the massive marketing hold that FCP has on the industry it is hard for a guy like me to work against such a huge machine. My business may be growing but it is not growing that fast or that big. Yet!!! :)

Matt

P.S. Hey just upgrade or see if you can get a cross grade to a Mac of your Adobe package and have both. Given money is no object. If you look at the price of photoshop and AE on a Mac you could buy the whole package for $400.00 Cheaper.

My 2cents or rather my 2 dollars

I'm going to upgrade from the Premiere Suite to Final Cut Studio 2 too.

Pro's of Premiere: tight integration with Photoshop (and other Adobe Products), good real time preview often. Does the job...

Con's of Premiere: some little things are clumsy, I often refer to this, but having to unlink all your audio from your video footage clip by clip on the timeline is time consuming and really, annoys me to hell!
Less support in the industry, less supported codecs out of the box.

Pro's of Final Cut: although similar, has a brighter interface (also in tearms of use), has almost all possible video codecs supported out of the box.
Great support in the industry. Has Color, although this version has many bugs...
Has a open timeline, Prores codec, and via Compressor very easy to get the format you want - in Premiere, it's much more difficult to compress from one thing to another, much less options...
About my annoyance in Premiere: with Final Cut (ans some other NLE's, it seems) you can just unlink all the audio from the video on your timeline with one click...

Con's of Final Cut: I have the feeling it does less real time preview then Premiere, but I could be wrong. Less tight integration with Photoshop.

Very true. I work in a corporate environment with the adove suite, and have been challenged with sharing projects cut on FCP. Usually I'm the one on the receiving end and paying for the service, so it's not a big issue. However, I can see rejection if the roles were reversed and I was working/providing for a larger studio.

The only reason I can see for why most individuals use windows is because it's much cheaper, and there's a larger selection of components and software. However, there's greater security in both stability and conformity, and FCP on Mac has that. You would be willing to pay more to ensure you get the work.

Furthermore, at least for myself, it's gets tiring wearing both an editors and IT technicians hat. I have little time and patience anymore to make windows solutions do what a Mac can do right out of the box. You think you're saving huge bucks up front, but you lose that to lost time in bug hunts, system tweaks, and expensive third party plugins.

For the sake that virtually all NLE's will cut a majority of the work out there, both Adobe and FCP will do the job. However, in hind site, if I were to start over again, I'd would have jumped straight into an FCP solution.

now what about things like Motion vs. After Effects ? Apples Audio Program Versus Soundbooth? Etc etc. I do plan to do AE work as well as regular editing, sound editing, etc...thus the whole package comparison ;)

I don't think you would miss anything other then AE. But Motion has come along way from what I understand. you would need AE for somethings still that is for sure but the fancy graphical work and particles and what not's can be handled in Motion and in 3D as well.

The good thing about keeping AE around is (if it's a recent UB version) then you can use the AE plugins in FCP.

From what I know if Soundbooth (not much - based on Cool Edit?), Apple's Soundtrack is a much more professional solution.

Motion I'm not too keen on, but technically it's not supported on a MacBook anyhow ....

DVD Studio Pro - personally I get better/quicker results with iDVD which does everything I want (I authored Crooked Features using iDVD and am very happy with the DVD5 result)

LiveType I use quite a bit.

In fact, if the Soundtrack bundled with Final Cut Express had feature parity with its Studio brother, I'd be more than happy.

From what I've heard Motion is a bit more limited in possiblities then AE, but will probably provide of 99 procent you need, exept if you are doing more heavy effects work...
Motion has 3d in it's last upgrade, which makes it much more up to par with AE (but not completely, if I understand correctly), but Motion is also far easier to learn.

Don't know about Soundbooth, saw a demo of Soundtrack Pro (Mac) on IBC and although I know that demo's are made to look good, it really... looked good.
Many possiblities, nice surround editing,...

I've heard once that a friend of mine was putting together a dvd once, and he wanted to put more then 99 nodes into a dvd project, but he couldn't find anyone to do it (not in the prosumer business). The only one who could do it, was someone working with DVD Studio, in which he cracked some codes to be able to get more nodes (or something, I didn't completely understand it).
Encore (in Adobe) does pretty well too, I think...

And what of photoshop?

FCP people still use photoshop but I have heard that getting Photoshop Extended is not really worth it. I would agree I have yet to really need the video part of photoshop since it came out.

CS3 vs FCS 2
 

I use both packages regularly: daily use. I've cut long (1 hour) and short (1 minute) projects on both. As an editor, I can also use Avid, and Vegas, plus I have edited on traditional linear, A/B/C/D type systems.

I don't think you will find a definitive answer to your question because simply put, it really depends on the individual editor/user. What are your skill sets? What are your preferences? What are you comfortable with? And most importantly, what are your needs?

Both packages will allow you to edit or confirm your project. However, the way in which you actually do this is different.

Adobe has tighter integration, and an insane number of plugins which make its suite immensely powerful.

Apple has a knack for out of the box usability.

Which do you prefer?

On an application by application basis, you could say:

Final Cut vs Premiere: perhaps a slight edge to Final Cut if you want wider compatibility, although you will find quirks within both applications.

Soundtrack Pro vs Soundbooth: not quite a proper match up as audition is the higher end audio application from Adobe, but Soundtrack Pro is more robust, whereas Soundbooth is geared towards the casual audio editor.

Motion vs After Effects: similar to the above, but After Effects beats Motion hands down. There is so much power in AE you need years to master it completely. But. Do you need that power?

You can go on and compare each of the other applications, but I think you will find that things aren't really that clear cut. It still boils down to your personal needs, potential learning curve, and preferences, also perhaps existing infrastructure? There's also the potential cost involved in your workstation and how much flexibility you want or need there?

One thing I will say is Adobe has a wider selection of applications, which are greared to almost allow you to be in control of your entire production chain from beginning to end. Apple hasn't quite gotten there yet, but perhaps they will - I don't doubt it.

Whichever you chose you can't go wrong.

Personally, I use whatever is available, but I do have a preference for Adobe since I can use each of their applications and based on my needs, it works for me better than FCS 2.

Just my 2c.

I do want to thank everyone for your thoughts, I am taking everything into consideration. It is not an easy move but as stated here, I also have alot of experience being 'pooped' on for not knowing Final Cut because thats 'what everyone uses'. It still is more industry than Adobe. I`ve always thought of myself as fighting the power, because in the end its the product, not the tools, that will matter. However, without the tools people want, will I find work? Time and again the answer has been "No." So thats a big trouble spot for me personally. I have no problem learning a new program, its more about the cost and what it will return in the long run for me. Not an easy choice at all when I`m already in the hole to equipment and am starting it all from my pocket, and just me. Anyone else can feel free to chime in.

Hi Nathan.

Currently I work with Premiere Pro 2 (as stated earlier).
If a normal client wants a film from me, he just says what he wants the end product to look like. If shoot, edit, and they are happy. They never ask me what I edited on. I doubt most of them know the difference between Premiere of Final Cut.
But if you have to work with other people a lot, in team, than it's always a good choice to set your whole team on a standard, because it creates much less hassle.

If you are only delivering, you can mostly get away by for example, delivering an Avi file. Both NLE's can read it.
Go to an Apple store, and ask if you can just play around with Final Cut Studio on their Mac Pro (mostly they will just let you do it, without standing next to you or something), and look if you feel comfortable with it.
Final Cut Pro and Premiere Pro have pretty much the same interface, so you should be able to get some hands on, although every new program is weird in the beginning.
Think about when you will be most productive, working with Premiere or Final Cut? Only you can decide that.

Nathan,

I responded to you email feel free to call me this afternoon if you like.

Guys....I don't have much to say about Adobe Pr. I'ved never used it...I'm an apple guy since a very begining of Mac's. I don;t have a PC in my office or at home...and I don;t want one eather.

Got Final Cut since FCP 3. Today is easy to get around and very familiar with all this applications eather FCP S2 of CS3...as longest you know very well your tools, thats what matters.

Remember this field is a composition of pre-productions, productions and post-productions...once you handle very well all three, it will help also to get your goals in every project.

My sugestion to you is...go to FCP S2...test drive it...and if you like it, you know another application for your profile !

You got nothing to loose here !

Take Care....Good Luck !

God Bless You,

Carlos Quinones
It's Written Productionss, LLC.

Another FCP question...does it have AB editing? Its what I`m most used to with premiere. I guess any layered program will do, just trying to figure out everything.

I've been using both FCP and Premiere on a daily basis, and often on FCP I find myself wishing for the elasticity that Premiere has.

Pros of Premiere: Many more options for sound editing (the unlinking part is tiresome indeed if you have to do it so often but it is the only drawback in comparison to track filters and other stuff that is not available on FCP), easier and more flexible keyframing, better preview when using slide tool (4 points instead of FCP's 2), no necessity to "double click" everything, clearer effect window interface. Tighter integration with Photoshop (can import photoshop stills as a clip for example), Illustrator and other Adobe applications, better titling tools. Also you rarely ever need to switch away from the arrow tool to perform any type of editing, which is totally absolutely awesome, and a feature that I started to appreciate after I tried learning Avid (ugh...) and even after I started working in FCP which is almost there, but not yet. Project manager allows you to automatically trim and save your source files (something FCP can't do, either off-line or copy the whole thing). Also Premiere better manages render files - when you move a clip and then move it back, render files are back, try doing it in FCP... Works much much better with Contour Shuttle Pro - no lags, extremely responsive.

These are all little things here and there (with exception of sound editing), much of it is personal preference, certainly, and also I am more of a Windows user, and less fan of Mac OS. But Premiere still remains my editor of choice when I have a choice :)

Cons: Less codec support out of the box, not industry standard unfortunately, exporting to tape could be better (like in FCP), media management for bigger projects is nowhere near AVID, needs fast CPU and lots of RAM, can be unstable otherwise (although even FCP crashed on me the first time I just clicked at a random clip :)).

Frankly, I don't see any reason why Premiere should not compete with FCP in terms of being "industry standard" editor, and why it has a reputation of being "substandard" or "worse" and get snubbed by people from the industry.

Motion is nothing compared to After Effects. AE has many more possibilities. You will definately miss AE after switching to FCS2.

That being said, Adobe pricing and upgrade policies s**k. At least here in Europe. You can't cross-grade, you can't upgrade to International when you have Localised version, it costs 1.5 times more than in the US, and so on.
It is cheaper to fly to the US, buy it there and go back than to buy from Polish distributor.

Hi Bart, great informative post!


Although I think it also got to do with the popularity of Mac and FCP in graphical industries, I also heard that Premiere was VERY unstable until version 6.5 and missed a lot of functions. That's why Premiere has a bad name. It's not easy to loose a bad name.
I know a professional editor, and he said: "I don't work with Premiere, it's not an industry standard, it's highly unstable, lacks many functions..."
And I told him: "But have you worked with Premiere Pro? They say it's much better, powerful, stable, and pretty much like FCP"
He said: "No, I haven't..."

Somewhere, that's to be expected: if you have a bad experience with a software program, you won't be keen to revisit it or look at new versions...

Anyhow, very informative post!

Hi Nathan,

To bad we missed each other on the phone but you must have been busy. You asked me to chime in so here are my thoughts.

I have been with Pinnacle Liquid since Studio 6. Great software and easy to learn since my computer background is 3D modeling design as a Naval Architect that makes all editing software easy to understand. Also it makes all editing software look cheap. But the problem with Liquid once it went to Avid is the service dropped off the map. I have for the last two years paid for an unlimited service contract. Well that was a two year mistake since 75% of the time I could never get anyone on the phone. Once I called Avid in the Massachusetts office and was told we can’t put anyone full time on Liquid service when there are only 45 people paying.

I just went to Liquid Immersion in NC and what a great event I learned tons. But Pinnacle reps were there and the update for the software is coming but they would not say when it would be released. So I felt it was time for a change.

Also I have two big clients with TV shows who I shoot for telling me if I was editing on Final Cut they would give me the editing work for my footage. This to me was a no brainier since one of the jobs would pay for the change.

So I have made the switch with the help of Zotz Digital a DVinfo.net sponsor and purchased a very powerful Mac Pro and RAID along with Adobe Production suite and FCS2.

I just set up the computer yesterday so no input on the editing GUI but after taking two courses at Immersion on After Effects and having a wife who is a writer and graphic artist on a Mac it won’t be that hard.

Will I still use Avid Liquid? Yes I am keeping that workstation set up and it is rendering as I write this.

But from what you wrote me in an email you are loosing work since clients or perspective clients will give you work if you have FCS2. My suggestion is make the move but don’t’ leave Adobe behind. I purchased Adobe Production not for Premier but for AE, Photoshop, Plus more. I think both are important and who knows I could start using Premier and love it.

I hope this helps and feel free to email or call if you have more detailed questions.

Paul,

it's nicer this way, if you post on the forum, so everyone can learn from your (informative) posts.

I think the original question has been answered exhaustively - also think there will never be a final answer - it's all subjective. We are clearly the winners as both companies compete to bring us better products.

What I would suggest is a little different: forget for a moment platforms and software and concentrate on EDITING. Learn how to edit instead of how to edit on x software; understand WHY things are done and not how are they done, understand the theory behind digital video. Read books, primers, white papers, experiment with simple software (freeware), it will help you tremendously! Understand formats, codecs, compression, bitrate, etc...

Once you master that, it will only take a few days to adapt to any software on any platform. Instead of thinking that xyz developer was stupid, you will understand that he had a good reason for doing it that way, developing software for a specific industry, for specific needs.

And that, my friend, will make you THE master!

I`m not a master by any means, but I`ve been using premiere since 2001. I never asked for a direct answer, I asked for pros and cons if the original question is reread. And its whats been coming in and been helpful.

I don't think it's been mentioned here, but one big plus for using Adobe's Suite is the Dynamic Link function. You're able to import After Effects comps right onto the timeline in PPro, bop back into A.E. and make changes (to a lower-third, for instance), and have the changes show up on the timeline with no intermediate rendering.

My workflow is usually this: ingest the footage in PPro to make my cuts, then import the PPro project into A.E. for effects, keying, masks, titles, etc., then use Dynamic Link to bring the comps back into PPro for audio design and final cuts, then render out via the Media Encoder (to Web, DVD, or Blu-Ray).

A similar function exists in Encore, the DVD authoring application, to bring A.E. motion menus and Photoshop comps into the application.

Their tight integration of all of these disparate applications is what keeps me an Adobe user for going on five years now.

That said, Apple's suite looks mighty "tasty", too. I sure wish they'd port it over to the PC!

Cheers,
Brian Brown
BrownCow Productions
www.browncowvideo.com