I've been there myself, doing the whole virtualdub/after effects song and dance. I'm amazed at the time I willingly spent to preserve the best quality achievable for my projects. But last december, NewTek finally shipped the missing piece of the puzzle I had been waiting for al year long, SpeedEdit. Even if you don't like it as an editor, even if you only use it for transcoding, I reduced my prep time for projects from 2-3 weeks to less than a full wek with it. SpeedEdit does the hdv to sd transcoding faster than realtime with amazing quality, and you can throw in some very powerful color correction into the mix. I really recommend it as an editor though. The speed at which it handles very complex projects is really something special and, again, the quality is just top notch.

My .02

Been playing/testing a lot of these workflows. It seems I don't need VirtualDub and can export a PP2 timeline to Tmpgenc 4 express to the 2 streams Encore needs and end up with a very nice SD DVD.

I'm trying to decide whether or not the Aspect HD is worth it. The intermediate format makes it MUCH easier in PP2 although frame grabs are slightly clearer direct from an HDV timeline.

I can edit an HDV timeline in PP2, send it through the Tsunami to Encore (I notice that takes a Cineform codec for the HD avi out of PP2) or use the Cineform intermediate in and out of PP2 to Tmpgenc to Encore with very similar results.

On close inspection, I do see some color artifacts without the intermediate. $500... hmmm...

Also, been trying to frameserve to Tmpgenc from PP2 and can't get it to work. Although, from the Debugmode link on the Adobe site I get the impression there may be color shortcomings with framserving anyway.

I'd better decide. My 14 days are just about up.

All I know is that every time someone says "how do I export to ..." or "What codec does Sorenson take" or so many other things, the answer always seems to be "Cineform Aspect HD".

I have no problems, yet people editing "native" do. I have to conclude that Aspect HD is the right way to go.

I think that Adobe should have just taken an exclusive license from the beginning and included all of the new versions of the codec and other feature as Cineform developed them. EIther that, or at least attempted to come up with something as good.

We just sent our new underwater DVD to the replicators.
Edited the HDV material with the EDIUS 4 and the Canopus HQ codec. 700 GIGS and compiled down to just 57 GIGS
Did all real time slowmo and CC with it.
Encoded out a progressive PAL MPEG2 DVD file straight from the 55 minute 1440/1080 timeline @ CBR of 8.5mbps with Procoder Express. 2.5 hours.

Made it up with with DVD lab Pro and even burn't the master with it as the ones we did with Nero and Gear Pro failed the verification tests when comparing the files on the computer...go figure....

Test played it over and over in a old powerbook G4 OS9 Mac laptop.
A old PC Toshiba laptop.
Two other computers with a CRT and LCD screens.
Normal old 4.3 TV with a very fussy SONY DVD player.
An feed it out from the same player to our Epson TW700 projector to our 100 inch screen.

No compaints this end, looks and plays great.

The CC with EDIUS is very good, cannot believe what we achieved with some of our dirty underwater footage with it.

As shot
http://www.hdvunderwater.com/videoclips/cc.jpg
After real time CC
http://www.hdvunderwater.com/videoclips/cc1.jpg

That's also in the back of my mind. What's Adobe coming up with for the Summer? Will PP3 have integrated Cineform? How annoyed will I be if I buy Aspect and the summer Adobe upgrade already has it?

Any press leaks?

It's a shame NewTek hasn't gotten the trial version of speededit out. I know I must sound like a broken record, but for the same $500 you pay for an intermediate you get a full blown NLE that's really faster than anything else, a great intermediate codec with alpha support (speedHQ), realtime firewire hdv previews, etc...

Yeah, well sometimes timing is everything. Unfortunately, the solution window for many of us is NOW.

AE Newbie
 

Great thread, couple question re. after effects import resize and export.

I am trying the AE Huffy HDV - SD method. Here's my questions:

1) Can I import an uncompressed premiere pro sequence to comp 1 timeline and use that or do I need to first export an AVI or other out of premiere pro before importing into AE?

2) For some reason when I drag my HDV clips into the timeline in AE, AE is treating them like they are 1440 by 1080 rather than 1920, any idea why and how I can get AE to assume the clips / sequences are wide screen HDV when I drag them to timeline rather than non widescreen. (I have set the comp settings to widescreen). Also, why when I set comp to "DV widescreen" does it keep width at 720 and not make it go widescreen???)

3) So the process is I drag the corners to fit the SD composition size? How can I resize the sequence / clip using controls to make sure I get the exact dimension rather than guessing / getting close by dragging corners?

4) When I export using the HUFFY codec, what exactly do I click to make this happen? Ie. Do I export it as an Adobe Premiere Pro Project or straight as a Huffy project or what exactly? and I am having trouble finding where this HUFFY thing is located (I just installed it).

Thanks for helping this AE newbie!!!!!

I've had some very good results shooting in HDV, placing captured HDV clip on PP2 timeline (SD, 16:9), applying Sharpen filter (at 30 to 40), and rendering it out as MPEG2-DVD 2pass VBR (at 9Mbs top, 7Mbs target). The source looks clean and sharp, very little to none "stairs" (30 sharpen is good in most cases). The only problem is rendering time....

Thanks, Jason.

Do I understand correct, that Vegas 8 Pro is what I need for best downconverting from HDV to DVD?

Presently, I'm using Premiere Pro 2.0 - but my tests with HDV material (downconverted to DVD) do not satisfy. I haven't used your Virtual Dub method, because I'm new to editing and have no idea of some things you are saying. Can you please describe your method in more detail, step-by-step, please. Or, maybe there is a detailed guide somewhere?

Thanks a lot.

Regards,
Sergey

I shoot with an XH A1 in HDV and deliver in standard DVD. I got very good results from DebugMode frameserver (Free) to TMPGEnc 4 Express ($99) letting the TMPGEnc resize with the lancosz3 filter when I was using PP2. I tried Cineform in PP2 but PP2 didn't like it much on my machine.

Now I'm using CS3. The included media encoder in CS3 is better than in PP2 but not as good as DebugMode -> TMPGenc. (The CS3 encoder gives a "faded" and unsaturated look.) I've also started using Cineform (Aspect HD $500) again. It makes the picture not quite as sharp but eliminates a lot of artifacts and makes CS3 much happier. I really only notice the "not-as-sharp" in a side by side frame enlargement though, so it's not a problem.

Brad

Sergey, there are tons of good tutorials on the web for VirtualDub, from pure text to video tutorials on YouToube. For smaller projects simply resize to 720x576 (you're in PAL land, right?... or is Russia still on SECAM?) export uncompressed to a file on your hard drive, then take that file and encode it to MPEG. For larger projects use the frame server. VirtualDub also has a fairly good help file. Feel free to PM me if you still need help.

Good luck,

Brad, I got Premiere CS3 and DebugMode and TMGEnc 4.0 XPress. Is this all I need for decent quality downsampling? Is it OK to capture with CS3 or should I use some other program? Do you use Cineform in THIS chain or not?

Thanx,
Sergey

Thanks, Ervin. Russia's TV is on SECAM, but satellite TV and video - PAL. RE your simple method - I tried it before and I did not like it, or maybe I did something wrong (but the resulting DVD was worse than DVD produced from SD DV). I understand, that downconverting (which is elimination of detail) must happen in a smart way, not just by way of simple resize.

I read somewhere that Sony Vegas Pro gives good result. But I would like to stay with Premiere Pro (just used to it). Maybe I should use Vegas for capture, instead of PP2 or CS3? It is made by Sony for Sony after all.

Is it a good idea at all - to capture with Vegas, then to edit in Premiere CS3, and the resulting video to pass back to Vegas for downconverting for DVD?

Thanks

I use Cineform primarily because Premiere handles much better with it. There's a slight drop in resolution, but just slight. On the positive side many of the HDV artifacts are removed. It's a little like using a touch of a good Noise Reduction filter.

I capture to disk on a laptop with OnLocation (included with CS3). I also record tape as a back up. Then I transcode to Cineform using HDlink to an external 500gig disk, edit in CS3, frameserve with Debugmode to TMPGEnc 4 Express. I resize in TMPGEnc to SD using the Lancosz3 filter, output separate audio & video files for Encore, import into Encore and create an IMG file. Then I use a Primera Duplicator to create 20 to 50 SD DVDs from the IMG.

I don't capture directly to Cineform because my laptop isn't fast enough. Also I kind of like the tools OnLocation gives you. Forget about using the laptop as a monitor with OnLocation though, - latency. I use a 20" flat panel fed from my XH-A1.

I was really hoping that upgrading to CS3 from PP2 would give a good quality resize to SD from HDV, but I was still unhappy with the bundled media encoder. I'm back to frameserving to TMPGenc now and am happy.

Encore CS3 (also bundled with Premiere CS3) has the ability to output BlueRay. None of my customers have those players so far, but it'll be interesting to see what happens in the coming year. Nice to be able just in case.

Brad

Can anyone chime in on the Apple-side of these things?

On the spirit of this thread, I ran into an issue with Encore CS2 yesterday, and had to burn the air copy DVD for the art department using different software...

I used Nero. Dropped the m2t file of the program directly into the DVD creator.

The quality of this downconversion was FAR superior to Encore or Premiere, and honestly to any other methods I've tried (Cineform included).

I was blown away! The cheapo consumer DVD burning software put out a stunningly good copy for DVD. As well, it worked. =D

I watched the DVD back on a 42# LCD HDTV through an upconverting Component DVD player. It was far, far superior to network TV using HDMI from a cable box, and on par with HD remastered DVD content from the major players in film. Freaky!

Carl

I'm not sure what might have happened in your case - I am happy with the quality of resizing in VDub. See attached sample from a quick test with no other filtering than the resize. It gets a lot better with sharpening, which I did not do on this sample.

So, has anyone else found the standard DVD quality from Nero to be as good as Carl has?

Carl, are you claiming that using Nero produces a DVD that rates a 10 on the scale the OP listed in his first post?

I am a retiree on limited income and volunteer edit for a local communnity access cable TV show, so low-bucks solutions are desirable and necessary. Yet I would buy a retail copy of Nero if I were totally convinced of the final quality.

I have tried repeatedly to get an .m2t file to load in VirtualDub v1.7.5 and VirtualDubMod v1.5.10.2 and all I get is an error pop-up saying 'Cannot detect file type of filename.m2t'.

Ken, The reason Virtualdubmod won't open your file is that it's a transport stream not a program stream.

It is straightforward and fast to losslessly convert a ts to a ps. Various applications do it, the one I use is remuxts.exe available here: http://www.yamabe.org/softbody.html

The steps with remuxts are as follows:
1) Load the .m2t file into the "Input filename" box.
2) Click 'Get PID'
3) Click 'Add'
4) Click 'Start'

By default a new version of your file will be sent to your c:/ directory (although you can change the folder if you wish).

This new version is a program stream that Vdubmod will open happily. To do so, either change its extension to .mpg or use the "all files" option in the Vdubmod input window.

Hope that helps!

Oh my, something yet more to learn! Never had to concern myself with transport/program streams - always worked with analog and DV "streams".

I tried three different ts/ps converters and coudn't get any to work for me. But then, I downloaded several .m2t files - so (scratch head). I don't have an HDV cam yet.

Since this subject is off-topic for this thread perhaps someone could direct me to a suitable forum for such conversions.

Meanwhile, has anyone used Nero to convert HD sources and make a "wonderful" standard-def DVD?

Yeah, HDV is no easy cake... there is a lot to learn.

Another way to bring the m2t files into clean mpeg acceptable for VDubMPEG is MPEG Streamclip, a small app you don't even need to install under Windows, it runs off of a folder you save it in - you will have to have QT installed though, which, chances are, you already have. You simply load the file into MPEG Streamclip, choose > Save as MPEG and boom! you're done, extremely fast and reliable.

Downconvert using Matrox or...Virtual dub
 

Hello Matrox uses,

Can anyone confirm the best way to down convert HDV to SD for DVD using the Matrox RT.X 2?

I have recently been importing the Matrox HDV .avi file into Virtual dub to resize it to 720 X 576 (Pal 16:9) and then encode to mpeg 2 using TMPGEnc. However I still get the jaggies! The colour and picture looks great however.

Anyone have a better solution?

Regards Scott.

Well, I tried the OP's best method and got very poor results. Here is what I did:

I captured an HDV file in HDVSplit and after much fiddling I was finally able to get Mpeg_Streamclip to convert the m2t file to mpg. Then I loaded it into VirtualDubMod and used Lanczos3 resize (Interlaced) to change from 1440x1080 to 720x480. I also used the Panasonic DV codec since I certainly didn't want to deal with an uncompressed file!

If this method is superior to downrez in the camera I sure don't see it. I'm a retiree on a meager budget so I was looking forward to getting superior DV video via VDubMod.

I used VDubMod instead of VDub the OP used because VDub won't read in MPG files. And, to my way of thinking, if the frameserved file is superior quality then the AVI should be too! I would like to know where in this process I went wrong.

Ken, some of the best things in life are free - the beauty of this method is that all the software you need is free.

Your mistake is probably the use of the Panasonic codec. If you don't want (or can't) work with uncompressed files, then go for the (free) HUFFYUV codec, one of the very few visually lossless codecs. I use it all the time even for SD work and love it.

DVDs sourced from Progressive sources look supremely sharper.

If you would like progressive picture quality on you DVDs from 1080i HDV source material this is what I do. All these are free tools. After using HDTV2MPEG2, I am able to open up the HDV material in VirtualDub MPEG-2 version. This can take 10 minutes to open for 1 hour of HDV material.
At this stage it will be 1080 X 1920 interlaced. (The true horizontal resolution is 1440)
In VirtualDub I use the following filters to get to pure 720 X 480 progressive.
Using the deinterlace filter select Discard field 2.
At this stage it will be 540 X 1920 pure progressive at 29.97 frames per second.
I use Lancoz3 resize to 540 X 810 to obtain the anamorphic DVD aspect ratio. (Horizontal resize only)
Using the crop option I crop 30 off both the top and bottom and 45 off both the left and right. This cuts 1/16 off each edge.
This gets me to 480 X 720 so that each of the 480 horizontal scan lines remain intact. (i.e. no vertical scaling just horizontal scaling)
This really helps in maintaining prestine quality of the picture. You might like to add some sharpening at this stage to suit your own preferences.

To avoid generation of large avi files, use frameserving from Virtual to avi2mpg2_vfw making sure you run virtualDub auxiliary setup and install the handler first.
Within avi2mpg2_vfw settings set your output mpg file to be a progressive sequence at 29.97 frames per second with 16:9 aspect ratio (Read the avi2mpg help)
Last step is the use ifoedit to create your dvd compatible files. Place them in a folder called VIDEO_TS and burn the VIDEO_TS to a DVD using DeepBurner.

The resulting DVD has a sharpness equal to any Hollywood progressive sourced DVD. but it will be 29.97 frames per sec instead of 24 for most film titles. It will play like any Hollywood progressive widescreen DVD offering (i.e. set DVD player to progressive scan output to enjoy the full quality)

Everyone I show these DVDs to is really impressed with the detail and sharpness that is non existant in standard interlaced home made DVDs.

I'm now in the middle of a project, but I wanted to acknowledge your replies.

Thanks Ervin for the encouragement. Mpeg_Streamclip seems to be unreliable. If it detects any problems with the mpeg stream it refuses to load, crashes or just ties up the CPU at nearly 100 percent. I plan to search for better mpeg tools.

Brad, thanks for the procedure! I used to write some procedures as an IT manager but retirement becomes me! I have noticed on commercial std-def TV lately that a few programs and a few commercials seem to have better resolution images of landscapes and mountains than they *ought* to. I wondered how they did that - and that is why I was so emthused about this topic. I plan to try your procedure soon but may not get there until after Christmas.

Ken, I'm surprised to hear that MPEG Streamclip is not working for you - I use it on 3 different computers with outstanding results, in fact I use it for a lot more than the topic of this particular discussion: preparation of DVD video for posting on the internet (VOB to various other formats), audio extraction/decompression from DVDs (AC3 to WAV), simple edits (cut/paste) at GOP boundary of MPEG files, transcoding of MAC-originated video files to work on PCs, broken time code repair and the list goes on!

Maybe you downloaded a new beta version instead of a stable version? Beta versions are usually buggy...

Hi Ervin. I have all three versions of Mpeg_Streamclip - 1.1, which crashes on evrything, and 1.2 beta 1 and beta 2. At least the beta versions don't crash on std-def mpeg files. BTW, these are Windoze versions. And, I am trying to load m2t files from my HV20 captured via HDVSplit.

Brad, looking over your procedure I wonder why you throw away one field? In my understanding (perhaps meager) you are throwing away half the picture information. Certainly the video will run smoother if we simply double the field 1 lines but, in theory for me, losing half the original information to do so is pretty drastic! From an engineering standpoint, I wish they had never decided to use interlacing. It has been nothing but a hassle - full of artifacts. Also seems to me that you are throwing away half the chroma info. I will certainly try your method but I'm not understanding it yet. Ken

I would not even waste my time with Brad's method - that sounds a lot like "how to save files copied off of high definition television to standard definition DVD" than anything else - he's not only throwing away every other horizontal line, but also the sides of the picture, so I am not sure what's left... a little of the center of the image?

It's certainly not a video editing workflow, rather something that belongs to the videohelp.com enthusiasts in my opinion.

answering a previous question on the mac side....
 

Using the XHA1 with FCS1 on an iMac, try David Chuas conversion on the XHA1 forum. It is by far the best quality DVD and h.264 conversion fromHd to SD I have seen to date on a Mac. Initial files are large using export to 10 bit uncompressed ( ie 20 sec = 500 mb) but after conversion for DVD or download file is crystal clear without artifacts at a smaller file size ( 20 sec now 15 mb). Wild but true. For me, its the best and clearest HDV to SD conversion on the Mac.
Peace an Blessings,
Hidalgo

Trying for the OPs 10/10 HD to SD picture quality
 

To me, this is the holy grail, so to speak. I am driven to get the OPs 10/10 picture quality. It would also be quite accurate to say I have champagne tastes on a beer budget.

I discovered that Avidemux does a great job of converting transport steams to program streams. Great price, too!

I tried to replicate Brad's procedure and I think I was mostly successful but when I checked the vob I found it was still interlaced! The images looked pretty poor. I did buy Nero 8 a few weeks ago and, using Nero Vision, I was able to burn a progressive DVD. The video looked reasonable but I don't think it was the 10/10 the OP is claiming.

So far, the best SD images I have been able to get from a Canon Hv20 is to downconvert in camera - which the OP rates as 5/10. That 10/10 still eludes me.

Ervin (or anyone for that matter), what would the workflow be for HDV footage captured from a Sony HVR-V1U via Premiere CS3 and a Matrox RT.X2 when wanting to completely edit in HDV but then export to MPEG2 for burning to a DVD with MPEG Streamclip? Mainly, what would be the optimum settings and export method from Premiere CS3, and then the settings to use in Streamclip so that it could then be imported into Encore. Any advice would be much appreciated!

My source material is 25Mbps HDV from my Canon HV10. The only reason I use HDTV2MPG is to remove the transport stream outer wrapping to enable it to open in Virtualdub MPEG2.

I am throwing away the even numbered scan lines, but I end up with the 540 odd numbered scan lines which are all captured in once instance of time 30 times per second - hence true 540 progressive full resolution 30 frames per second. DVD players will only decode progressive sourced material that is 30 frames per second or less. (Just like film sourced DVDs, the material is put on the DVD at 60 interlaced fields per second, but with the caveat that the odd and even field are captured at the same instance in time, this allows the DVD player to reinterleave the fields to produce a clear frame with out combing)

Yes 5.5 % of the the picture is cropped from each side, but this is only because the HD size is not 960 X 1440 originally (which would easily scale to 480 x 720). This cropping enables the picture's original scan lines (the odd numbered ones) to have a one to one mapping without the degradation that (non interger) scaling would create.

I am extremely satisfied with the detail of the DVDs produced. The only other DVDs with equivalent quality that I know of is that produced from my friends 480p camcorder when recorded at 30 frames per second. This camcorder was 4 times the price of my HV10.

Read my previous post again and carefully try to see why this workflow will yield the best possible 480p DVDs that can be had from and 1080i source. I have produced 10 DVDs using this method and I was ecstatic at the detail and sharpness that was achieved when I produced the first DVD using this workflow.

If anybody want to ask me any specific questions or needs to get more details on the workflow please post your questions as I may not have given the full details of the work flow.

If anyone doubts the quality output of this workflow, I will post a short sample .vob file (720 x 480) if push comes to shove.

Brad, I would love to watch a demo footage, and also some stills off of your final video. Although HD to SD is less and less relevant as more people move to HD, I am among those who love experimenting, so a step by step workflow would be helpful. By the way, I'm using MPEG Streamclip for the same reason you use HDTV2MPEG - the only drawback is that you have to have QT Alternative installed, but on the plus side, Streamclip gives me a ton of additional options; check it out.

How happy are you with the temporal resolution of the resulting video on pans/tilts and rapid movement?

[Sorry for the delay, I just got back from vacation].

I have been editing with the Cineform intermediate and then using Cineform to downconvert and deinterlace and the same time. The DVD's on an upconverting player (PS3), compare well with the 1080 version on Blu ray

David, that is awsome! Can't afford Cineform though.

Brad, when you crop it's not clear in which application since you can crop in VirtualDubMod/_Mpeg2 or in avi2mpg2_vfw.

Also, avi2mpg2_vfw appears to be a DV codec, so it will likely always produce interlaced BFF video. The DVD I made was interlaced while the same clip from Nero Vision was progressive after selecting the option.

Brad, I too would like a clearer, step by step, if possible.

Like film at 24 fps you have to consider panning speed and rapid movement. At least your dealing with 30fps which gives you a little more headroom. My preference is slow zooms and only panning to keep the main subject in the center of the picture.

Motion of subjects renders very clearly which makes you never go back to interlaced once youv'e bitten the progressive bug.

All the normal Hollywood camera motion techniques will be to your benefit here with the benefite of 30 frames per second.

As I am a new member of this forum, could someone tell me where I could post some of the 480p footage.
I would like to have critical evaluation of the footage. I will try to post footage of my 3 year old in action. I will post as a 7 Mbps MPEG-2 at the same quality I put on the DVD. I have also encoded at 4.5 Mbps (2 hrs on a 4.7GB DVD) and footage still looks very high quality and sharp even with high motion.

If you are happy with the footage, I will put together a more detailed step by step procedure (using all freeware tools).

I will look for a place to post this footage and hopefully have it up within a week.

Brad, if you can't find a host for your footage, I can upload it to my website, I have plenty of space and very little traffic, even if many people download it, it won't affect me. So if you would like that, burn it to a DVD and mail it to me - PM me for mailing address.

I'm having problems with my final DVD. It plays fine on one of my players but skips/jitters on 2 others. Plays fine on a mac & pc. Here's what I did

Exported Cineform AVI from PPCS3, resized in VirtualDub (method Lanczos3, Use Interlaced). Couldn't get TMPGEnc to open my new SD avi, so converted to MPEG using Cucusoft AVI to DVD converter, then burned to DVD using TMPGEnc DVD Author 1.0. Picture quality is great but alas not really watchable on 2 of my DVD players

Would this have anything to do with Interlacing?