GY-HD Series is Dying. GY-HM Replace It? I Don't think so...
 

So, here I am cruising the JVC ProHD forums and it finally sank in that the GY-HD product line is dying. That happens as technologies change. I get that. But I started to wonder what JVC has up their collective sleeve and where I will go next as a consumer.

I’m shooting a new feature on my HD250u this spring, this time from the HD-SDI capturing directly to computer and Cineform’s intermediate. I’m still happy with the image quality, but I’m also fully aware that this may well be my last big project with this rig as my main camera. Things are changing and to stay competitive in the indy film world I’ll have to take a major leap forward soon. Will it be another JVC? I’m not sure...

Honestly, I have doubts when it comes to JVC’s current roadmap. I’ve been using JVC pro gear for the last decade and have become a bit of a JVC zealot. But with the release of their GY-HM line of cameras, my faith has been tested. The alliance JVC has undertaken with Apple and Sony bothers me. In my gut it feels a bit unholy.

I’ve always liked the little-bit-of-rebel that JVC has shown with their camera design/form-factor and codec/format implementation. I’ve taken pleasure watching the jaws drop in awe when I tell a Panasonic or Sony cool-aid drinker, “I shot it on my JVC,“ and hearing them say, “JVC makes gear that good? Really?..” Well, they never say that, but you can see it on their faces.

The worst part of the next 18 months, and I’m almost embarrassed to admit it, is the serious consideration I’ll have to give Canon and the other manufacturers that up to this time have been major players in the digital still photo market. Rumor has it that Canon has merged its still and video divisions into one big digital imaging department. And what will Nikon and Pentax do? Things are about to get crazy up in here!

The major players in pro video are due for a serious wake up call. Sony and Panasonic seem stuck in a rut. RED is floundering, unable to bring the Scarlet to market. JVC seems to be spending less energy in their image acquisition division and more in image display technologies. The door is wide open for Canon, Nikon and the too often overlooked company of Silicon Imaging. The next two years will be truly fascinating....

So, am I alone here? Does anyone else feel just a bit betrayed?

If any JVC reps have a sliver of info that might help me through this time of reflection and doubt, I'd love to hear it.

I think JVC feel that they'd be unwise to try to compete directly with Sony and Panasonic. This is why they are going for niche markets and trying something different - in the case of the HM700 using CCD instead of the ubiquitous CMOS in this sector of the market. This gives lower spec, but certain benefits and I think they hope to get devotees that can't live with CMOS (like me!)
The 35 mb/s codec and full raster chips make it a good and serious camera in my eyes.
Steve

I too was invested heavily in the prohd line. I have the hd100 and hd200. I made a custom 35 and mid format lens adapter for them.

Then last november I picked up the 7D. Pushed it really hard. I then realized what a heavy yoke has been lifted off my, and my grips shoulders, literally.

I still had the cam on stand by "just in case" the DSLR wasnt up to the job.

Then, after finishing several high end projects for high end clients, (hi speed sea transport company, real estate corporate materials, gov't tourism promotional)

-AND not having to pick up the JVCs from their cases in each project, I realized it was time to trickle down those JVC cams to my consumer/events division.

It was game over for the heavy JVCs in my high end corporate and advertising department. Their image was fantastic. Alas, the pros of going DSLRs was simply overwhelming against the cons.

When we tested the D90 and D5000 from Nikon, we werent convinced with their video and used them only for stills. The game changed with the 7D.

I certainly don't feel "betrayed" but I think more and more every day that I will continue to use my HD200ub's for everyday stuff and will likely invest next in an HD-video ready dSLR for "beauty" shots. The buy in is ridiculously cheap compared to what the video guys want for large sensors (Don't misunderstand me, I GET it...) but while I wait for "the next big thing", I need to get out there and do MY thing, which puts food on MY table.

I've had two hard drives containing non-mission critical media FAIL in the past 6 months and another in the past 18 months so solid state EXCLUSIVELY isn't in my game plan yet. I can put tapes on the shelf and with some care, they still work ten years later so the JVC's have a very valid market segment for me. It's only my CLIENTS that scoff at 720P - I shoot at 60P for motion characteristics so until 1080P60 becomes a workable solution, I don't mind my JVCs.

And consider yourself "lucky" that you bought into the 250 with HD-SDI - I HAVE no upgrade of image readily available to me - I'm locked into 25mbps HDV. I will EVENTUALLY add a 700 to the stable, just to have HD-SDI and 1080P in the same form factor as my existing 200's but not in the next 2 or so months.

Steve:

I get the whole competing directly with Sony and Panasonic thing. I’d go so far as to say that JVC never really has. Their rigs have always been just a little quirky, a bit different, which is what pulled me to them in the first place. But now they’ve niched so hard to Final Cut editors and Sony-centric broadcast houses that people like me have to step back and take another look.

I’ll give you the CCD vs CMOS thing, too. I’ve shot some CMOS rigs in my days and there are certainly things to think about when using them. I’m not in the least dogging on JVC’s quality. I love my cameras. They’ve done me well.

Ted:

I can’t say that I’m sold on the current incarnation of the HDSLRs. Their images can be truly beautiful and the lens options nearly endless, but I have issues with form factor and other things that exist mostly because they were never intended to become full-on replacements for pro video gear. I will say that I’m excited to see how they will effect the new lines of pro video cameras that emerge in the coming years. That kind of technology in a form factor designed for video will change things.

Shaun:

True that, my man. True that...

I chose the HD250 because it has HD-SDI knowing full well that I’d someday what to bypass the HDV. I also liked the idea of JVC’s PL adapter. What a great concept. Unfortunately the cost never came down as I had hoped. At least I have the HD-SDI. I’m still recording tape as a backup, too. Never trust a hard drive.

All:

I knew using the word “betrayed” would raise some eyebrows, but don’t miss understand my point. I'm not saying the HM's are bad cameras. I do feel like JVC has forgotten me as a type of customer. I make low-budget movies. I’m fiercely independent, doing things my way. I edit on PC. I’m a nonconformist in the nonconformist world of content creation. And I’m cheap. I have to be. It’s the world I work in. The GY-HD series was thinking about me and my kind. I liked that and still do. I think the GY-HM series isn’t thinking about me. That series is thinking about someone else, and that makes me sad... Sure I could use the HM’s .mov or XDCAM EX .mp4 files, but I don’t want to. That’s on me, not on JVC. They’re doing what they need to do. And so will I...

I love my HD250 just like I loved my DV5000 and my DV500. And the HM700 (or whatever incarnation is available when I’m ready to buy) will make it on my short list by default. But the competition is steep. The SI-2K mini is my camera crush of 2010 so far. If I’m willing to tether my HD250 for 60p/720 4:2:2 with 24p flagging, why not tether for 2K 24p 4:2:2 to Cineform raw? I can’t afford it, that’s why...

I own one and STILL haven't put it into use! What a waste... Been looking to pick up "bargain" PL lenses but between moving 2600 kms west and the downturn in the economy, I just haven't had the disposable cash... even for rentals.

JVC FIRST piqued my interest 10 or so years ago when the Digital-S camcorder AND lens AND batteries came out at under $10k. I was fresh out of media college and used to shooting BetaSP on aging 507 head units and wanted the form factor but not the price... I chickened out (due to lack of local support) and bought into a PD150 after using the VX-1000 and DSR200A owned by my mentor for years.

Yeah, exactly. I held off buying the adapter hoping it would drop but it didn't. When you start looking at lenses and the adapter, you're looking at spending as much as another camera! I'm all for paying for the image I want, but it's out of my reach especially after dropping the cash for the HD250. I'm glad I did, but another $7000 on the adapter and lenses just isn't gonna happen.

I was looking at the PD150 when JVC dropped the DV500 into the market. I shot so much stuff with that rig that I wore out the tape drive. Picked up the DV5000 and did the same. Ran both those rigs with a Firestore for another year or so before picking up the HD250. JVC has been good to me...

When recently visiting the Broadcast Forum / Production Show in London my overall feeling is that I am still very satisfied with my GYHD201 camera and there was very little latest kit to tempt me, despite my 201 now being three years old. The five key reasons being...

1. Unlike the DSLRs nothing can beat a professional shoulder mounted camera for stability and options, especially on ENG shoots.
2.If I turned up with what looked like a glorified stills camera a lot of my corporate clients would laugh me out the door.
3. The tapeless workflow we have established in which we shoot simultaneous to both harddrive (100GB) and also to tape provides both security of mind during the shoot, and flexible archival options -we can archive the master tapes, and the resulting project files edited straight off the harddrive end up on Blu-Ray data discs.
4. 35mm look.... when required we have the option of using our SGPro adapter and set of Minolta primes, as used to shoot our recent feature film (which incidentally has just picked up Best Feature Film at the British Independent Film Festival 2010).
5. JVC support has been great -we recently had it serviced by them and they also updated some of the hardware for free.

Our equipment has already paid for itself and turns out some great images, so have been and continue to be a happy user!

JVC's ProHD product line is alive and well. What is happening is very simple; it's the transition from tape-based recording to file-based (tapeless) recording. And that transition is by no means complete yet. NAB is just around the corner...

Chris -Am glad that the ProHD product line is alive and well!.... but being able to shoot to both tape and harddrive/solid state has significant advantages in my opinion (notably archival) than going completely tapeless, so to me the GY-HD series is still a favourite, unless they are introducing dual technology in the new models....?

I have a JVC 111E and the brochure makes repeated statements about how great it is for a 16mm or 35mm film transfer. After shooting a short and one feature on it, I agree. It's also the most beautiful HDV camera ever produced. It was made for one purpose only - for independent filmmaking.

I hope the particular bunch of guys at JVC who championed this model still works there, and I wait for their next superstar.

Thank you for the thread and dialog
 

We really appreciate that there's consideration towards the line as much as we at JVC are putting into it. As Chris mentioned, we're not done by any means. But to first touch upon some discussion points:

HZCA13U Cine Optical PL-Mount lens Adapter - The product concept is to enable the use of existing 16mm primes in the market, in particular those lying dormant with Aaton's, or a lens that a photog has kept since cutting their teeth with it. There's no comparison to the "organic" look that a prime lens has when seen through optics. Speaking of which, there's 11 elements in the HZCA13U with less than 1 f-stop of light loss. A similar device made for 2/3" mounts costs $30k, and the cost of manufacturing is high for this piece. Having said that, we didn't compromise on the quality of the image. We even implemented image rotation from the 200 Series specifically so that this adapter can be used without fixing the image in post. The HM700 carries on this capability.

XDCAM EX codec - This is an extremely robust codec, and at the same time the data mass payload is very efficient. We've been told by many ProHD users of their desire for 1080/24p as well as minimal digital artifacting. This codec does both, and is supported by all major NLE's, making the files recorded by the HM series ubiquitous (apologies for the big word). JVC developed the 19Mbp/s platform within the XDCAM EX codec so that material created with our 720p format can be brought in and can continue to be used.

.mov native file recording - We found that an overwhelming majority of our users preferred FCP, and we have a very strong relationship with Apple from our HD100/HD110 development. The HM series has the fastest, most efficient workflow in the market, bar none. The implementation of this workflow was made possible by a great deal of work by people who had our mutual customers in mind.

File based recording solutions - There's a number of IT-based solutions in the marketplace for those who need redundancy or a file based solution for their 100 and 200 series camcorders, both by JVC and other partners. We work with Aja, Convergent Design, Edirol, Fast Forward Video to name a few, and we offer our MR-HD100 as a solution as well.

The GY-HD250 continues to be a major product for us, especially in studio production. Being a camcorder it provides the flexibility of being used in the field, and it offers the capability of recording on tape.

What's most significant is the growth of 1/3" bayonet mount lensing options, and models being introduced by companies other than JVC. And the lensing options continue to grow.

The HM series are producting HD 24p file-based pieces on a weekly basis on shows like NCIS LA, America's Most Wanted, and of course "24". Film Institutions have embraced the new technology in a major way, and it has empowered instructors to focus on key elements of filmmaking, like lighting and framing, without worrying if the material will have issues ingesting into their NLE's. News and government customers are using our equipment 24/7, and our extremely positive cost/performance ratio has been recognized industry-wide.

All of these advancements have been made with our ProHD users in mind, including independents, stringers and photogs, so that they can be empowered to focus on the creative and not on the technology. It is our ongoing endeavor to empower our customers to work smarter, and at the same time be able to tell their story in the way they envision, whether is drama or news.

JVC ProHD has a strong list of major partners in signal processing, lensing, storage, power supply, and on. And our partner's list continues to grow every year, and this year's no exception...

Thank you all for your ongoing support, and we hope to see you all at NAB.

Sincerely,
Craig

Thanks for the input Craig.

Also, when it comes to the HZCA13U Cine Optical PL-Mount lens Adapter, it should be noted that by increasing the image target size internally within the adaptor, compared to ENG/EFP styled zoom lenses there is actually a 1.5 f-stop GAIN in sensitivity. I look forward to actually lensing something with mine some day.

Thanks, everybody, for jumping into the conversation. This is great stuff.

Dan:
I agree when it comes to form factor and DSLRs. And showing up with one on a client shoot does raises eyebrows and concerns. A shooter I know lost a contract for that very reason.

As for the SGPro, did you use it to shoot the entire feature or just bits and pieces? People I’ve spoken with about similar adapters have commented how they use them only in certain situations as they can be difficult and time consuming to deal with.

Chris:
The ProHD line IS alive and well, no doubt. The GY-HM series makes sense in so many ways as a move to a completely digital workflow and that’s a good thing. With NAB in a few weeks, I’m just curious how the market leaders are going to respond to what’s happening with the DSLRs. That’s fair, right?

Sareesh:
Amen, brotha! The GY-HD line was totally directed at indy film folk like us. Thank you, JVC! You guys made a camera just for me!

I, too, am waiting for that next awesome superstar. I’ll get to what we want when I address Craig’s excellent comments...

Craig:
Thanks so much for joining the conversation. It’s truly awesome that JVC takes value in what their customers are talking about. That’s one of the many reasons I love your products so much.

You’re points about the HZCA13U are well taken. It is the best possible adapter out there. PERIOD. No one would argue that point. But it is expensive. I realize when compared to other similar devices made for the big boys, you could say it’s a steal, but it’s out of my reach and the reach of many ultra-low budget creators. It makes perfect sense for bigger budget stuff, and someday I hope to get there. I want it desperately but on my set the money goes further feeding/paying my cast and crew (I can’t pay much so I feed them well).

As I said, I am a nonconformist in a world of nonconformists. I’m not a FCP user. That’s my choice. I realize that most are, and I’m fine with that. XDCAM EX of course is a proven codec and would work just fine in my current workflow, but it doesn’t do much to improve the quality of my projects over what the HD250 already provides me. The difference between 720 and 1080 isn’t that big a leap (seriously, yes I just said that), not enough for me to justify the cost of the HM700.

Question: Has the noise level in the HM700 CCDs improved? That’s the only issue I have with the HD250. A little more noise than I expected.

Okay, so, what do I want? What would help me justify the cost of a new camera? Build me a ProHD rig that shoots to a 4:2:2 codec at 24p720 or better that records to an inexpensive media like SD cards or solid state drives. That’s it. That’s really all I want as an improvement to my HD250 (and the CCD noise). That’s why I’m tethering to a computer for my latest project.

I’ll say it again, guys. I’m NOT saying that JVC has made a poor product. EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. I think the GY-HD250 is a camera that was designed specifically with me in mind, like they kidnapped me in my sleep and extracted all the information they needed then put me back in my bed with a camera in my arms. I just wanted more from the HM series. I wanted the next line to be made for me, too.

We shot the majority of the feature (about 80%) using the SGPro adapter and created a workflow that was fast and efficient and most importantly turned out some great images. But there are pros and cons. Rather than hijack your most interesting thread I will post a separate thread with some technical details and also an interview with the camera operator who explains how it worked along with some photographs etc of it in action. I still believe 35mm is a completely viable option with these cameras and have even operated the set-up completely myself (i.e. focus pulling, operating and directing at the same time!) but wouldn't particularly recommend that....

I'm having a similar experience to Ted's. I was going to buy a Letus adapter for my HD100 but the low light issue was going to be a real problem for an upcoming project. I had heard about the Canon 5D and checked one out for a day. I was really blown away with the footage.

Got a 7D as soon as they came out and it's been having a pretty huge impact on my work. Clients are responding to the footage in a way they never did with the HD100 and they are seeking me out because of my work with DSLR's.

I've really liked my HD100. I wanted to love it but it was just so needy..... dead pixels, split screen, constant back focus checks, chroma fringing, tape drop outs...

I still think it's the best looking of the early HDV cams, by far the best ergonomics. After tasting the forbidden DSLR fruit though - I just can't go back to light hungry 1/3 inch sensors and zoom lenses.

The reason I am working with this camera is the truly progressive, totally cinelike feel it gives. I have not to this day seen anything like it - unless it's on film, of course. JVC has a shutter 'system' which truly emulates the camera gate, sweeping across, not interpolating etc as other cameras do. The result is film, especially in 24p.

Any lens and adapter option I want I can get. Any format (16/9, widescreen, 35, 16, 1/3, even 3-D), and HDSDI out provides sufficient quality. You guys have worked up wonderful scene files.

Also, the sensor has a few wonderful qualities. Some of them you see when you shoot a naked light bulb agains a black background. Swing the bulb - amazing!

Blacks are wonderful once the settings are right, rich, deep, hardly ever loosing detail.

Shortcomings ? Sure: a lousy viewfinder and even poorer LCD. Some imaging problems. A standard lens with super-nasty breathing . A flimsy FW port. But these are all things we can work around easily, especially filmmakers like me.

Plus it's an elegant-looking camera. Do I find better ? Yes, of course, ARRI and Pana have some amazing things, as does Sony. But at xxx-times the cost, and much less readily available. Or you can shoot on film, if you don't mind the workflow. (I often do.)

The story is still out on DSLRs.

I say to JVC: keep up the good work.

Speaking of ciné lens adaptors... mine is up for sale.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/private-...ml#post1507606

Claude what camera are you using? 200 series or the HM700?
Be nice to know your settings that you're happy with too if you don't mind sharing.
Steve

Jvc
 

Indeed I chose the HD251e for all the mentioned reasons, and I believe its a great camera.
I'd like to put a few things out there.
1) How long will a DSLR last with heat generated and shutter life, most pro dslr state around 100 000 cycles guaranteed for their shutters, that makes 66.66hours of shooting at 25p, half that at 50p.
2) Being that they are stills cameras with a video ability, you guys who have used dlsrs as video cameras, how do they go with heat dissapation etc?

Indeed I think even a native internal codec of 35mbps 4:2:0 or 50mbps 4:2:2 should be something easily obtainable in this day and age, and the only other thing to ensure a long life for JVC would be to go at least 1/2 inch on ccds. And to stick with CCDs, as the negatives with CMOS to me isn't worth the lower noise.

The one thing in a run and gun / doco / wedding that one always cries for is more sensitivity and less noise. Improved codec and 4:2:2 will improve that a bit, but I think unless a larger chip is sourced that won't happen. In fact, even more so than the noise issue is the need for greater exposure latitude.

Another member of this forum went from the HD110 to the Panasonic HPX (300 or 500 can't remember) and the one thing he said is the light sensitivity is what really makes it worth the change. I know I've shot rodeo's at night under tungsten lighting and had to lower my shutter speed to 1/25 and 1/12 just to get shots of dull noisy footage.

For those who can't control the lighting environment this would make all the difference. And I personally don't think 720p is dead, so increase the chipsize to 1/2inch, but don't make it a true 1080p as you'll still get the pixel cramming problem which creates noise, keep the 1080i pixel shifting output if need be, but lets crush the noise and lighting issue for once and all.

I'll get back into my box now, sorry need coffee!

66 hours! No wonder they're so cheap!

I kid, sorry. That 100,000 number is for the mechanical shutter used when taking a still photo. In video mode the electronic shutter works the same as any other CMOS video camera.

I have heard of DSLR's overheating but it doesn't seem to be a consistent problem. I have not had it happen to me (knock on wood).

I'm still using a HD100 and frequently pair it up with HM700s in multi-camera shoots. The HD100 image still holds up great.

The last concert I did used 2 rented HD100s (Technisphere in NYC still rents them), 1 HM700 that came with the cameraperson and my HD100. It was during a terrible blizzard and one cameraman was snowed in so the HM700 got put into a static wide shot and was started 4 minutes before the concert began. That was a life saver as we didn't have anyone trustworthy who could switch tapes if it was another HD100.

Years ago a pro could have a 20/30 year old 16mm rig and no-one would question using it. These days we are convinced that every 3 to 4 years major equipment needs to be replaced. That said, along with other users, I would like to see a hybrid HD/HM, simultaneous built-in tape and SD chip recording. Perhaps the tape remains HDV but we could have the choice of XDCam EX on the chip. Not to make it too Apple-centric but I could use a ProRes recording option available by FireWire to a standard off the shelf hard drive.

Claude:
100% agree with your entire post. I’m assuming you’re using some version of the HD250 from the details you mention. The cost for performance ratio on this rig is truly a killer deal, no doubt.

So, my question to you as a fellow filmmaker is this. What do you want from JVC in their next incarnation in the ProHD line up? You have to have some wants/wishes/dreams. What are they?

Adam:
Spot on, man. Spot on... More color! More data! Less noise!

I totally agree with you when it comes to 720p. 1080 alone just doesn’t offer much more. I jacked into a 70” 1080p plasma (component) with some football footage shot at the local university after a broadcast engineer buddy of mine wanted to test my HD250 before buying a couple for his HD implementation. What did he and his his engineering minions say when they saw it? “Beautiful...”

William:
What a great point. Why do we feel like we have to upgrade so often? My last upgrade was from SD to HD. That's a pretty big leap. I guess that's what my real consideration is. What is a big enough deal for me to drop the cash again? Tapeless isn't enough. Tapeless to a more robust codec isn't enough. Add 1080, still isn't enough. I guess I'm back to what Adam mentioned... More color! More data! Less noise!

Excellent posts, everybody. Thanks!

i shot a movie with loads of compositing and heavy color correction - all in native HDV, and the results, on DVD, look stunning on 56 inch LCD Full HD Screen. And I didn't use an adaptor - just the stock lens.

What I didn't like:
1. Audio was way to compressed to be top notch.
2. It's too front heavy, especially with GMP batteries - which are better than IDX or AB but more light weight.
3. The LCD is a huge pain in the a**.

What would I like to see? An adapter built in! Why not make a camera with a built in PL mount? This with an appropriate sensor and a little more data going in. The camera drinks light like a rocket drinks fuel, so what difference is it going to make anyway? This with fantastic sound and a JVC battery that is heavy and lasts longer! What more could one ask for?

The only problem is only a couple of hundred would ever be sold, meaning the amortized cost of research and development would be HUGE and never recouped. Development would have to be on the scale of a RED or other large sensor, PL mount camera and it has been suggested that RED is having some issues with getting the next generation to market. Not saying JVC can't, just saying that given that a LARGE number of digital cinematographers on here seem to think that $5000 is "WAY too much" to pay for a camera, I'm just not sure how interested I would be as a manufacturer in taking THAT risk right now. If it was part of ongoing R&D, that's a no brainer but a new project JUST for a large sensor PL mount camera that might never break even? Pass.

Observe the transition:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-h...iewfinder.html

The new HM790 is basically the tapeless version of the HD250.

To the original poster: ProHD is alive and well.