Part of the confusion is that we are a worldwide community, so you're hearing reports from people in Australia, Italy, Canada, the US, England, etc. Yet the camera is marketed by different divisions of JVC, each which can set its own policies. So it's possible that JVC Canada may declare "any split-screen that's visible at less than 12dB is a defect worthy of replacement", yet that doesn't bind JVC USA or JVC Australia to the same conclusion. There is no blanket statement of policy coming from JVC Japan, the parent company of all the JVC divisions.

So what a JVC Canada customer gets told may only have bearing on customers in Canada, and may have no applicability to customers elsewhere.

Now, regarding US units -- the camera was released overseas a full month before it was released in the US, some people had it overseas for two months before some US customers started getting theirs. It is our (perhaps unfounded?) understanding that the US units were being delayed while an extensive quality-control check was implemented. So Steve takes the position that reports from non-US cameras are not necessarily relevant to US purchasers, and I think he does have a point. However it goes forward, though, it should be reasonable to say that what US customers are experiencing is the most up-to-date, most thoroughly quality-checked versions.

Well, that's part of the problem -- consistency only carries as far as the borders of the particular marketing division's territory. JVC Canada can implement a policy of "we'll replace everything", and JVC New Zealand could decide "we'll only replace it if we can recreate the situation in our lab" and JVC USA may decide to say "we don't consider it a defect". Each country is different. Each marketing division is different. And the policies and standards that they decide to adhere to are not necessarily binding on any other territory.

The only thing you can do (and the only answer that is actually relevant to you, the individual customer) is to ask your dealer what their policy is on the split-screen issue. Your particular dealer will be able to converse with their JVC sales representative and will get the straight facts on what options are available to you, the customer. Don't come to the web looking for the answer, as there are too many different answers (and each of them right for each territory, but not for others!) Ask your dealer. Tell 'em you've heard about the SSE and you want to know what the policy is regarding that. That's the only way you'll know what matters to you in your country.

Guilty -- sorry, didn't mean to get things off-track. Since I'm getting both, I was pointing out that they're very different and separating the two cams into what they're individually best at, and Steve made the point that "why would event shooters get this cam? It's made for filmmakers", so I was trying to say that the reasons I got it had nothing to do with filmmaking, it's not necessarily the optimal choice for that environment; instead I was saying that its unique selling points had more to do with the appeal it has (warranted or not) for event shooting. Tied in with, and taken from, Douglas' post above.

So no, no reason to go off on that tangent, and I apologize if it drags the conversation even further off tangent!

Barry and DSE are very correct. In certain market segments, your camera's formfactor will either put the client at ease, or, make them think you are just as amateur as the guy who offered to do it for free before they decided to hire a professional.

I know that's not the be-all end-all of creating good video, but it is a reality. The most common question I get with the XL2 rig is, "What tv station are you shooting for?".

As for 24P wedding videos, the better quality videos often resemble a short film.

=gb=

JVC Rep @ Resfest Chicago
 

James Daniels (aka J.D.) District Sales Manager JVC Corporation says he'll be at Resfest Chicago with camera. Here is a nice opportunity to check out the HD-100 and talk to "the horses mouth". So bring your interest in HD as well as your questions.

This was confirmed to me via email so it is not on the Resfest agenda. If any of you would like to link up with me over at the show let me know via email.

@Barry and Douglas, Just for fun take a look at this clip Click here to see what level weddings are cut at these days. Aaron Osborne shot and edited this. I'm not an event cutter but I admire how far the wedding crowd is taking creative shooting and editing. The time warping is very good in NLE's these days.

That's exactly what I'm talking about -- when I was at the WEVA expo to check out the cameras, I saw this kind of video everywhere. And I figured the wedding crowd would just eat up the HD100 -- I mean, not only for the look of it, but also if you notice, probably 90% of that video was all slow-motion... so shooting native 480/60p, and playing that back at DVD speeds of 480/24p -- I thought JVC would have a huge hit on their hands.

The available-light question is the only thing. I'm going to go try the split-screen test in SD and DV modes.

Im sorry to report that we noticed SSE in one of our footage...sad but expected!

Exactly what I was referring to. The scary thing is, some of this stuff is done as SDE (same day editing) although the really sweet stuff isn't done quite so fast. This is a great editing job, although the color could have stood some sweetening. These guys know how to shoot for the edit, they are assembling in their minds before they ever turn off the cam.
Impressive industry these days, it's no longer uncle ralphie.

One thing about the 24p and 30p of the cam is it also gets the footage closer to what bride/groom see themselves as, IMO. I think they wanna see themselves in images that are similar to what they're seeing from at least mid-budget films. Not just the cadence, but the treatments.

SSE is just as evident in DV and SD60P modes... and under really low-light conditions, it can behave quite oddly. The two sides of the image can flash darker/lighter independent of each other, like the processors are trying to find some common ground and can't.

Adding a little light makes that all go away. But there's no doubt, this isn't a low-light camera. It's extremely noisy and split-screeny under dark conditions. Buy a Frezzi or a Pag and bolt it to the top of the camera and never take it off.

I'm thinking LED LitePanels would be perfect!

If my theory is roughly right and a small IRE Black Level correction factor is computed for, one or both, A/D converters -- and this value is wrong for either, or both, I think it's easy to see why light level is so critical.

Imagine the factor is 5IRE. It's a perfect match for the Left A/D, but high by 3IRE for the Right A/D.

Now imagine a low-light image that ranges from 0 to 25IRE. Suddenly that image ranges from 3 to 28IRE. You can see the difference between it and 0 to 25IRE clearly

But, once the captured image is 0 to 100IRE, the Right image is 3 to 103IRE. Thus, it should be harder to see the difference between it and 0 to 100.

When the difference it really tiny we only may see a line.

And, since we can have an error on any 1, 2, or 3 colors -- its easy to see how the big differences that some see could be produced. And, easy to see why any kind of White Balance error could increase SSE.

Sorry to go on -- but as you raise gain it's clear that color levels do NOT increase proportionately to increasing gain which causes both a loss of color saturation and increased color error.

Moreover, I've noted that the computed color temp changes by 300 degrees when you go from insufficent light (OPEN) to sufficient light (about F4). So clearly low light hursts three ways -- plus the noise that comes from adding gain. How do you compute a valid correction factor for noise???


I once wrote software that computed a heart beat from the differences in body weight that occur on each pump. It took months to fine tune the algorithm to get rid of errors. It's a very hard task!

I suspect that: (a) JVC had no idea their twin A/D would fail so badly. Either a design error or the parts being delivered are not what they requested. You have no idea how often this can occur.

And, (b) in the last few months they have been scrambling to improve the circuit and tune the firmware. The first batch were clearly lemons/betas that didn't come into the USA. Obviously, they can be "fixed."

Chris -- ideally this thread should be split because WE KNOW the PAL units a bad!

I suspect ours -- except for a few that slip through USA QC -- are "fixed" as much as they can be for now. But, I'll bet work continues -- and folks are right to keep the pressure on. Especially for a definition of failure.

This type of problem is not unique to JVC. A Sony V110 Video8 camcorder had an iris hunt that occurred whenever the sky was bright and the ground was dark. Unuseable in India! I sold it.

A Panasonic editing deck, muted the sound at every edit point. When in Japan, I made a series of phone calls and finally got to THE engineer who said -- roughly, "you are correct that it it does this -- it is a 'characteristic' of the design." Then he said, "that means it was our error, but I can't officially say that. I'm sorry it is causing you so much trouble."

Tw
 

JVC is segmented globally, and thus every region exists without always knowing what is happening in Japan. That said, be nice to your JVC reps and JVC dealers. Taking a defensive tone, depite your frustration, will only exxagerate the situation. Have some tact and understand the politics involved and I predict that those who purchased the camera will eventually be taken care of if and when the split screen scenerio is sorted out. Everyone who bought the HD-100 has a warranty, so be patient and again, be nice here.

I'm testing an HD-100 right now so I understand why this thread has continued. I think that this thread should continue until there is an official word from JVC Japan, rather then word from JVC subsidearies on various continents.

At the end of the day, remind yourselves that Matsushita Electric is not a 'mom 'n pop shop' based in Albany, NY. If I actually owned the HD-100, I would remind myself that Panasonic and JVC might be working on this problem together, or not, but most likely.

So confirm that your warantee is valid and just deal with the shooting parameters according to what they are NOW, and just think about Matsushita when you go to bed at night. Sweet dreams.


LA based DP

HD100 owners! Try the wite wall test.
 

Okay, I wasent so worried about this split screen effect ar the begining.
But today I made some new testshots indoor in my apartment. I have big windows at home so the light was enough to give me a f8 at my withe wall (no direkt sunlight). And the split screen was there.

Seems like this SSE can apear in good lightning condisions as well.

I taped it, and I will give you a link to a sample later.


Seems like it has problems with withe surfaces?
I have a GY-HD100E

That's three now reporting the split even under enough light. It seems light is not the cause as some believed.

Steve, you're right, it should probably be split but I wouldn't know *where* to split it.

It seems to me, judging by the reports, that the NTSC units are just as bad!

I'm afraid that there is no question that the split screen effect will appear under normal lighting conditions as well. I can replicate this and similarly have recorded it to tape.

It is just that you dont notice it unless you pick a flat surface with a single colour. Then you see it so clearly. It then is always lurking there undermining your confidence in the camera's performance.

You just so want to love and trust this camera. You vacillate wildly between wanting desperately to trust JVC and just not believing that it could do this to you.

Meanwhile the split screen effect is always there, waiting, just waiting to emerge ...

Rob

I feel you. At the same time I´m confident that JVC will do something about this problem once they have figured it out. For now I see no reason to send my unit in until they have a cure for it...!

So Robert, your assertion is that SSE happens regardless of light levels; if you point it at a flat same-colored surface you can detect the split?

No - sorry Barry, that was not my intent.

It is not regardless of light levels.You can see from my email that I was having a bit of a rave. I hope that people experiencing this difficulty can be excused occasionally for sharing their frustrations and mixed feelings.

I suppose the main point is that I can certainly see it in an unlit room during daylight - with a big window at the end of the room acting as key light. You can see it by focusing on a flat wall with one colour. The SSE seems masked by detail in the frame. My position has always been that I could live with the difficulty if it only manifested with gain on.

Sorry for my imprecision - not wanting to fuel hysteria or anything.

Rob

[QUOTE=Robert Castiglione. You can see it by focusing on a flat wall with one colour. The SSE seems masked by detail in the frame.Rob[/QUOTE]

PLEASE -- when reporting, note which Region you are in. You are in a PAL Region.

Moreover, even an NTSC unit will do this unless you MANUALLY COLOR BALANCE.

I started at page 5 and so far ALL those reporting SSE -- that is NOT eliminated by adding light -- are units not inspected in the USA. So where do you come up with this conclusion. Where are your data?

Why are folks who know their units are almost 100% likely to be bad and therefore must be replaced by JVC still reporting what we know to be the case? You might as well reporting all your TVs have a terrible flicker. Of course they do!

Where are the dozens of reports from the USA that show SSE is not eliminated by adding light and color balancing

Frankly, judging from the data -- or lack there of -- you guys are building the case for JVC USA not to have to do anything about SSE.

You'll have to come-up with something more than "you'll see it even if it isn't there" and "it's always lurking" to convince JVC USA there is a problem.

Frankly, I'm truly open to the possibility that my solutions will not always eliminate SSE, but so far I've got NO data that supports that possibility. And, if there are no data, what's going on here?

"Why are people who know almost 100 %. still reporting."

1. Because this is the appropriate forum to do so.

2. Becuase there is no official guidance acknowledgement or communication of any kind from JVC.

3. Because we are still exploring the nature and extent of the problem.

4. Because we are hoping that other people on this forum can assist in some way.

5. Because we are upset that we were not told about the problem before we purchased it.

etc etc


Rob

Take a look at this screen capture amigo. It can really happen in broad daylight.

Now that is the worst I have seen. Stephen, you need to send that baby back! 100U or E ????

That screencap was provided by Robert Niemann. The unit was an HD-101e. I think insinuating SSE doesn't exist doesn't help. There have been many people across the globe who report it. The camera just came out (as everyone knows) and as I wrote above, I think SSE took JVC's engineers by surprise. I don't think they'll say word one until there is a fix, even if it includes a recall of the first production runs.

Many have said dozens of times that those not having a USA Inspected camcorder should RETURN IT FOR A NEW ONE. No one here can do for you, or the others, that which some seem unwilling to do -- take it back to your JVC dealer!

We know the extent of the SSE problem in PAL units! It's been documented over and over! You'll not hear from JVC here! You won't get help here because we can't fix your problem. If you are -- rightfully -- upset that you were sold a lemon, why whine? Write a grown-up letter to your appropriate JVC Country Manager.

Of course, it has SSE -- it is a 101E not a 100U!

Steve, frankly, you are acting as if the HD100U had no SSE. If that was the case, I would just import a NTSC version. It would be even cheaper with the weak dollar rates. But, there are Canadian users reporting the SSE. There are also US users reporting SSE. With and without enough light.
So what's your point?

Anyway Steve, I have actually found your suggestions for alleviating the problem helpful - using manual white balance (always a good idea anyway) actually does help significantly. So cheers for that.

Rob

Steve,

I'm taking the m2t's as they come in from all locations and placing them on my timeline. I know what I'm seeing. I posted the Neimann screencap because it is nowhere on this thread. If Chris Hurd want's to break this thread up into NTSC and PAL then I invite that.

S.Noe

Steve is absolutely right -- you guys who are affected by this issue really need to get your dealers involved. They can apply another level of pressure above and beyond the customer in order to hurry along a solution to the problem.

Oy, that would involve some major surgery and right now is just not the best time for me as I'm curently on the road again.

"I can't honestly see why a wedding would be shot at anything other than 60i. There is no real reason for a 24p wedding!"
24p is about the only feature I personally don't care about, why a fixation on only shooting in 24p? there is much more to this camera than just 24p. Other than shooting in 25p as standard, there is also 576/50p for some fantasict high quality 16:9 slo mo. That interests me for the morning shots with the bride and photoshoots for those not wanting to pay for full HD.

As Douglas talked about, I am one of these wedding videographers who was very excited about getting a HD101 and honestly feel let down for now. If SSE was fixed tomorrow, I wouldn't hesitate once I sell the DV500.

If you want to see what I typically work towards, watch one of my samples here:

http://www.planetliquid.us/web_video...obhan_tiny.wmv

I would actually prefer the HD101 be a bit larger in the body. Presence at a wedding is important as it helps to keep all the Uncle Arthurs out of your way, and as stupid as it is to us, bigger cameras impress consumers so it sets a level of respect even with photographers who often consider videographers second class citizens. Shooting with a handycam is certainly possible, many do it (as have I), but I do find you have to fight for position more...

Speaking to another event videographer two nights ago, he was really impressed with the HD101. He was aware of SSE but thought it was only a problem with the LCDs. When I explained it was recorded to tape as well, he said in an instant the likes of "forget it then, that's a show stopper".

Fortunately for JVC they can get away with this a little for now, after all there are really no compeditors for what the HD100 can do on paper. That won't last forever, and reputations are being tarnished.

Come on young Victor, let us know how things are going back in R&D! ;)

For me the case is a little bit different (and maybe not so comon) becouse I bought my 100E from New Zeland, living in Sweden. It would be stupid of me to send it back from Sweden not nowing that the SSE-problem was solved. It would also cost me about 400 USD.

It's not really my business, but why would you buy it from NZ, specially with all the issues which were arising? Was it that much cheaper, that it was worth it to take the risk? I take you probably got it from Globalmediapro?

Yes, it was that much cheaper, at least for me (living on the edge). And also, it was available one month earlier than in Sweden. And offcource it is a wery sexy and appealing machin. When I bought/orderd it, the issues was not to be nown, otherwise i would have probably canceld my order. Yes, I got it from GMP, very good dealer.

I just tought the cam at least would be what it was supposed to be from the start. I took a chans, but this was not what I expected, at all.


This must be far more embarising for JVC than my spelling is for me.

Mikael, you might want to try the suggestion made by steve to only use manual white balance - I have been having a go today and it really does seem to make a big difference. Tell us how you get on.

Once (if?) a definitive solution emerges it might actually be cheaper to see if you can pay for JVC Sweded to service it.

Rob

Unfortunately I can not say it makes much of a different at all. Have you tested your cam against a withe wall indoor?

Yes, if that solution emerges I will see if JVC Sweden can fix it for a low cost, that was my plan.

For now I am okay sins my first project is filmed outdoor in realy good lightning.

Thanks anyway for your help!

Even after importing duties? Would you mind saying how much it cost you after all said and done?

I have a simple rule of thumb for importing something from overseas which I picked up when researching my Nikon D70 stills camera:

1. Is it so much cheaper that I can live without the warranty and get it fixed?
If it satisfies that test it then has to pass another - is it a complicated piece of equipment requiring specialised service? If the answer to that question is yes then I normally wouldn't import unless it was a proven piece of technology.

As a result I bought my Sony DSR1500AP from GMP (and the SDI card for it from B&H) - I saved over $AUD4,000 on the best offer going around in Aus. That outweighed the value of any warranty, plus it was proven technology from a company that I know I can get 3rd party service from.

In contrast I bought my D70 when it was still fairly new on the market - I could have saved roughly $AUD300 or about 15% buying on eBay from Hong Kong or from Adorama/B&H, but I checked the forums first and was reading way too many reports about faulty units. The camera hasn't missed a beat but I never regretted my decision to buy locally. By that philosophy I also bought the JVC locally and JVC are about to replace my unit with a brand new one due to a fault.

So 20/20 hindsight and all - but I think it's not a bad rule. I had no problems buying batteries and a charger from GMP - these are very basic technology and if they break down I've saved enough to get em fixed locally, plus of course being in Australia it won't cost me $400 to send back to NZ (ow that hurts Mikael)

Here's the latest technical snippet - SSE can be temperature dependent. SSE is also apparently very dependent on the automated setup these cameras go through at the factory (that is my info anyway although I know it's at odds with Steve Mullen's - that simply means we're talking to different units at JVC, half a world apart).

My most up to date information is that JVC are still experiencing problems in QC with this unit. JVC are replacing my camera with a brand new unit due to a fault, and I learnt they are having issues (excessive SSE) finding well setup new units.

If it really is a matter of how they are set up at the factory that leads me to hope that JVC will eventually have a technical fix to this problem short of replacing the scanning circuitry with a better design.