Charles how do you explain all the Sony decks that do work with the Avid? I'm trying to give people an understanding of why 422 might be working with FCP and not with AVID. The reason I touched on before is purely voltage levels. One user reported it worked on his Avid Mac but not on the PC - that says to me that 422 converter (stealth) on the Mac or the Mac port itself might be less sensitive to incorrect voltage levels (or better able to correct them) than the combination of 422 converters and serial ports on the PC. I thought it was worth looking into (it's a significant hardware difference) which is why I recommended Bruce from Addenda because he makes the Rosetta Stone and a bunch of other converters.

And if you think JVC have a handle on the 422 protocol remember 1000's of PAL HD101E's were sent out with a dropframe flag being inserted into the 50i stream. It was an Avid that picked up this error, not FCP (that's not an FCP bash BTW -great program, really has brought the price of the Avid down :-).

Sony decks work with Avid, (and they should they wrote the protocol), JVC BR-HD50 seems to work poorly or intermittently. I realise that's not impacting on you but it sure is giving Avid users a major headache. I think the onus is on JVC here to analyse and fix the problem pronto. Oh Avid should have a crack at it as well.

coming back with the drop outs
 

The JVC Avid cooperation for me is still a big problem.
I still get the drop outs on tape. And is not only this.
For a 45 min project the m2t is interupted when it starts decoding the sound, the avid stops operating and i am obliged to cut the project in small portions, maximum 10 min in order to get it out into tape ( With the drop outs).
With the BR 50 I can never estimate how many frames will get lost from the beginning of each "sequence" that is automatically exported from the Avid.
I am waiting for news from JVC - Avid in Jakarta.
For the moment they confirmed that there is an error at the tape that i gave them for testing-checking.
They advised to export to tape using the camera.
I will try tomorrow.
I did the raid at my computer HDs, i used pro hd tapes, but the drop outs are always there.
I hope that the 521 Avid concidered all our reports about bugs and misfunctions of the program.
If not, the combination is unusable for professional projects and seems like everyone has his one different problems.
Anyway:

Who can give advise for the hanging at a 30 - 40 min long m2t streem.

Who can give advise for the drop outs.

I must deliver the project and all my stress is not on the artistic quality but on the export to tape issue. And the answers from JVC Avid never come...!

Panos,

Why not just capture with CapDVHS and import into Avid? It's painless.

CapDVHS application

Web Site

I haven't quite followed this from the beginning but, are you working in 30p or 24p?

no idea bout that!
 

I'm not even going to suggest my 'tend to think' is scientific at all. Was just based on 'if it works here, it should work there' and that my limited experience with PC solutions has caused me to suspect the PC before other technology. But that's anecdote and we all know not to rely on that, so I'll shut my ill-suited mouth on the subject ;0). By all means get the guy from Addenda crackin (haven't dealt with that name since I was still in love with a media 100!). Actually the Blackmagic decklink guys would be a good source too, because that's how the 422 is getting inside our box. And they make drivers for both PC and Mac. Perhaps you could give them a shout on their web forum. If it works like Premiere on a PC through Decklink, then Avid still might be relatively suspect. Or maybe the serial ports in use (decklink provides on-board SP). Whatever, what was i saying about shutting my mouth?

I can't remember in this thread if anyone stated whether there was a deck profile yet. If not, Avid's answer as to why not would speak volumes I'm sure. They tend to take a long time to support new hardware, regardless of the hardware, in my experience (bad news when it means you can't invest in a new machine till they allow it!). Then again, when they approve it, its more reliable than anything else.

I agree, both parties should be all over this thing. I was happy to see my buddy at Avid at NAB demoing Xpress Pro next to this deck (although not hooked up) because we use both apps here. They gotta get it fixed and make good on that dream. And FCP gotta come through with that native 24P (come on MacWorld!) before I am 100% there.

Best o luck though!

The point was specifically that theose who need TC must use the VTR -- not the camcorder -- and must use RS422.

So your rant on younger editors is totally misplaced. Those that don't need TC will use 1394 support with the camcorder and it will work fine. In fact they are "doing it right" for their application.

You are using -- as I remember -- an "uncertified by Avid product" and blaming everyone for it not working. I would suggest you wait until a product has been certified.

JVC has no fault in calling it a "pro" deck since it does seem to work fine with non Avid products.

"Scene detection generally works with dramatic changes in video and, TC. There is an option in Avid to stop capture at TC breaks or not. This would be a dead function without TC. I can think of many reasons to have capture halt at a TC break."

Scene Dectection uses the TOD stamp. It captures each shot. It is really irrelevant what the TC is doing. All that's important is each scene is captured to disk. Seems to me that those using the camcorder as intended by Avid would have a production done in the time you've spent making a non-certified product try to conform to your needs. Getting a project done by using the tools as they ACTUALLY work with your NLE seems to be the very definition of "pro."

If the computer goes off and handles something else it can lead to TC problems and to export DOs.

I'm pretty sure all the deck profiles do in Avid is adjust the finer points like edit delay, whether a deck is capable of insert editing, the amount of pre-roll needed on edit and playback, etc. I don't think they actually modify the 422 protocol in any way.

You can actually get most decks to do all the basic things correctly using the generic templates.

In fact that is what should happen if there is no specific template for a deck - the Avid should still recognise it as a generic PAL or NTSC deck.

Steve I think your being a bit harsh although the quip about younger editors may have been a tad condescending.

I thought the whole point of this thread was to see if we could help people solve the problems with these decks - I don't think telling people that they are wasting their time is productive. If the deck was working perfectly for everyone else but Sean you might have a point, but from oher posts in this thread he's clearly amongst the majority not the minority. It's the persistence of guys like Sean that help solve problems for everyone.

Can we get back on topic now?

Harshness edited out, and in the future please use the "Report This Post" function to the bottom right instead of responding directly. There is no need to be harsh here, and more importantly, no need to respond to it. And I completely agree, let's get back on topic.

And yet -- Avid *did* certify at NAB2005. So let's stick to properly addressing the question, please.

Thanks in advance,

RS422 Control
 

We have been capturing via component and RS422 with the Deck for over
3 months, the footage has been shot HDV720/25p it is letter box downconverted and captured in Liquid 6 via bob on the Liquid machine and Preimere 6.5 on the Digisuite platform, yes we still have one of those. The Projects in both are SD 576i and we have had no problems of any kind. Wish we could batch capture HDV via 1394. But there is hope for the patient just got the upgrade to Liquid 7 will see if this works.

Yusuf,
I will add your system to the list of setups that are working with this JVC hardware.

We have all Avid certified hardware at my day job. My personal editing machines are not certified. I get exactly the same responses with both certified and non certified systems.

As far as I am concerned, unless Ken from JVC as more to add, I have nothing more to say on this issue.

One last suggestion for folks joining the thread late, read the whole thing before commenting. We find ourselves repeating information otherwise.

Chris, if this "harshness" was on my end, I apologize to the group. Getting frustrating/frustrated.

My humble thanks to all attempting to contribute here.

Sean

My apologies - didn't realise I was breaking etiquette..

nuff said

Sean, You're probably referring to me in that comment. I probably should have read the whole thread. Yosuf and I use the same Liquid 6.1 in which I (or Yosuf) have no problem with deck control or 30p. It's the 24p that is a problem.

My bad amigo and all the best of luck...

Stephen, no big deal, I just get into a circle at times telling folks what was already tried, etc. Most folks are just truely trying to be helpful. I appreciate all that.

We'll figure this bugger out yet. (Or buy Sony.)

See ya'll around,

Sean

Me Too
 

Today I hooked up the 50 Deck to my Avid Meridian system so I could use it as a DVCAM source machine going component out. After trying several configurations within the Avid and the deck, I was unable to prevent the unit from locking up.

This occured when a tape was inserted and during high speed shuttleing. The only way to get the deck back online was to disconnect the power cable for a brief moment.

This is a bummer, since I was looking forward to downconverting the film-like hdv directly into the Avid for a look. Seems like the workaround is to downconvert to a Beta SP or Digi and capture.

I've had no trouble controlling the deck on another system via firewire and FCP. I was however, hoping for an easy workflow when doing SD work on the Avid.

-Dave Dessel

David, since you mentioned the "film like look" I wanted to make sure you are also aware that Avid still can't handle the 24p HDV format yet. At least not the MCAs or Xpress Pro HD. Kinda' sucks.

Sean

I Know
 

Yes, I am aware of Avid's current HDV limitations. I'm using FCP for all of my HDV needs. FCP or AVID, it's all the same to me as my only concern is content and they are both fine tools.

However, one of the things I want to do is use the real-time down conversion in the deck to go in to my Avid Meridian System. As I stated earlier, batch digitizing does not work on this older system (4.5 years old) and the 50 deck. For SD projects, on this system, I'll dub to a Beta Format and then batch, until a solution can be found.

Best,

-Dave Dessel

David, were you trying to control the deck on the Avid via 1394 or RS422? I know you said 1394 for FCP but you din't say for the Avid.

Thanks,

Sean

Rs-422
 

Hey Sean,

On the Avid it's RS-422 that's causing the problem. I have no problems at all with Firewire.

Happy Holidays,

-Dave Dessel

That's what I thought. I am in talks now with our JVC Engineer for this region. I may mention you to him also as another person who can't get RS422 working. We have 2 of the BR50 decks now and I need to schedule room time in that suite to test 422 to the new deck. I'll be in touch.

Sean

Sean,

I am happy to speak to the JVC folks. I E-Mailed you my contact information. Have an awesome holiday.

-Dave Dessel

Thanks David. I found out who our JVC service rep is for the midwest (Ohio) and we have been speaking for a while now on several issues. He has our camera and is troubleshooting the latest mystery.

We had the camera stop recording TC and audio, even though the shooters were live monitoring it while recording. It just didn't record correctly anything but video. Strange thing is, that was in DV mode.

Anyway, we are on track now.

Thanks for the offer,

Sean Mchenry

Hi Barry,

This is disturbing news. Please let us know what you discover.

-Dave Dessel

At a 6:1 ratio that's 180 minutes of tape (9GB/hour native HDV) to keep on-line. That's 27GB -- less than an iPod. You don't need to be rich, just able to multiply correctly.

Perhaps you meant 60:1 -- which still is only 270GB. That's about $250 for a 1394 disk. After a production, toss it on a shelf. A true removeable drive would be about $200.

Later this year Maxtor will introduce Tapestry, a holographic DVD disc with a capacity of 300GB.

Despite the math, he's still right. Who will want to browse hours of captured footage, bring it in raw and the sync the full rez version - by eye? For a full length feature or doc? How would you justify that time to a client who knows how a real shop should function?

That's a lot of extra work that would be avoided with proprer TC and the ability to batch capture.

Sean McHenry

I see -- he does the math wrong, but his conclusion which depends on the math being right, remains correct. And, his 30 min project is a full length feature/doc. Hmmm.

Let's look at the 30 min project which he posted about:

1) Someone is going to have to watch and log all the tapes to get a batch capture list into the NLE. Either you do that by shuttling tape and marking while risking tape damage OR you watch the tapes play from disk. The whole point of NLE is to eliminate tape and work from disk.

2) There is no need to sync anything because audio is already on the tape -- sorry -- on the disk. Already nicely divided by the computer into shots.

3) Simply delete the shots you don't want, or toss them into an UNUSED BIN, and toss the "good" shots into the 30 min. Timeline.

4) Put the Project file and an HDV copy on the disk too. Along with audio and graphics. Now put the disk on a shelf in case you need the source contents. Done!

good lord
 

I appreciate your book and knowledge and presence. I'm not trying to provoke you, and frankly, this is unproductive. I'm not going to cut in the HDV color space and in a native HDV codec. The shoot tape is the last time I want to be in the HDV codec. I'm not bringing up 'professional' or 'practical' or 'prosumer' or any of those code words. I want to cut and correct in my output I frame format, which is not going to be in HDV, you can be sure. I want to use the freakin 422 port that JVC was kind enough to put on the deck. I want to rely on TC, which is still on the tape for a good reason. Why is this bothering people so much? I have a good workflow that does what I want. Good lord.

I haven't gotten any math wrong at all, and I'm fully aware of the super low data rates for HDV and higher ones for uncompressed SD and compressed/uncompressed HD. I never said anything about bringing it in through Firewire HDV. I'm fully aware of Firewire DV and Firewire HDV and use of capture cards and RAIDs and up/down/cross-conversion and color space and sample ratio and media manage/consolidate and all that crap. You do too, and probably everybody here does. That isn't my point.

We indeed work 6:1 ratios in uncompressed SD or DVCPRO HD, sometimes more sometimes less. We ingest through Decklink and either down-convert or upconvert and then work natively in an output format. We bring online from shot logs. We don't worry about burnt hard disks because we have RS 422 and TC and a project file. Yes we shuttle tapes to capture good clips. Haven't seen a tape drop out yet. In my experience with DV tape, drop outs occur before they get to the deck. Never seen one from use in a deck by people who know better than to drop them on the floor.

Dig, if you want to work in an HDV sequence and I/O through FW, go nuts. It sounds perfect for you. Its certainly one of a number of ways to work, and it must do exactly what you want. But please leave me out of subsequent discussions on the subject. I'll post back if JVC gets me any info about the deck issues I had in a new thread since this has gotten WAY off target of my posts about the deck issue I encountered.

"At a 6:1 ratio that's 180 minutes of tape (9GB/hour native HDV) to keep on-line. That's 27GB -- less than an iPod. You don't need to be rich, just able to multiply correctly."

Steve,

I think you have an entirely legitimate point about a native HDV workflow that does not involve offline/online conforming, but why make it at the expense of those who need and want to use offline/online with TC?

In broadcast TV, which I work in, it is almost mandatory to need TC that works for re batch digitizing - if only to protect against system failure. For Avid, which we use, their 'Total Conform' strategy makes sense for us. I want to be able to digitize and playout any format with frame accuracy and to recapture if necessary via RS422 contolled decks reliably day in day out and then take my tapes to a DS or Symphony HD suite and online to HDCAM.

For HD with HDV originated material very few NLE solution work end to end particularly in Europe at the moment. Cineform looks great but I personally cannot bear to use Premier Pro or Vegas. Avid Liquid seems to very well for 25p but I am not very familiar with it.

When Avid gets to grips with HDV properly (i.e. 25p and full HD monitoring/digital cut) its ability to integrate native HDV with the excellent DNxHD codec and DVCPROHD/SD uncompressed etc. will be a great boon to us and as an end to end finishing workflow will work in the way you suggest but we will still need TC implementation to function correctly.

Therefore can you please please stop inferring that TC in HDV does not matter - it may not to you but it does very much to those of us who need it and that certainly includes broadcast professionals.

Many thanks.

I second that motion...TC is here to stay for some while.

Try these setup changes and see if it helps.
In XP's device manager, change the serial port settings to:

Data Bits 7
Parity Odd
Stop Bits 1

It's what we have to do in Liquid to control BetaSP.

Will folks please read posts accurately!

I never said TC was NEVER needed -- I said IF you wanted TC, you had to use the VTR and RS-422 control.

This was based upon Sean claiming: "My last note on this issue for now is to point out that Avid still insists, according to their supported hardware list, that the HD100 camera cannot use capture from TC (no setting in, out points to capture) or batch capture at all from the camera. That could be read potentially as Avid stating that 1394 deck control is not to their liking."

In short, according to Sean, if you want to use 1394 with camcorder or deck -- you must work the way I'm recommending without TC because you can't use TC. Thus, I'm simply saying if Avid doesn't support TC with 1394 it is pointless to argue that they "should" when they clearly state -- according to Sean -- that they "don't."

So that leaves the VTR as the only path for those who do need TC. According to Sean "The BR-HD50 deck still hasn't made the list of acceptable hardware at all."

Now if Avid is correct about their own list and Sean is reporting what Avid says correctly, then one can logically say:

1) no TC via 1394

2) TC only via RS-422 from VTR

3) Avid doesn't support the VTR

4) Hence, there is no TC possible using Avid.

Therefore, at this point, the only way Avid supports HDV is using the workflow I advocate. Now if you reject that flow -- which is fine by me --then you need to find a different NLE.

This position is supported by Charles who reports: "The serial control and TC and capture has been dead on every capture on both our decks (we are using FCP and RS 422 and decklink capture card). Picture is great, captures are accurate."

THIS WOULD SEEM TO END SEAN'S THREAD.

--------------------

However, Charles brought up the "MUST HAVE TC" issue -- bringing to life an issue that was weeks old. Don't bring up a closed issue if you don't want it reopened! Or, more particularly, don't bring up a closed issue claiming that the reason you must have TC is because you aren't rich -- when your conclusion is based BOTH upon a math error and a rant on not using native HDV.

Because now you've opened another topic in a thread on "Sean's VTR problem" -- the supposed inability to work in native MPEG-2. To make a blanket statement about native HDV shows little deep thought about this issue.

But let's assume I agreed with you. An intermediate codec (like AIC) can still be used with a 7200rpm FireWire drive. Your 30 minute program sources will still fit on a 300GB drive at a 6:1 shooting ratio. So, your statement about WHY you need TC remains as wrong as it was when you made it the first time.

------------------

LASTLY, no matter what NLE and no matter what TC support you get, you will NEVER be able to Assemble or Insert edit to any HDV tape. Not possible. So the whole rant about needing TC for HDV export was a waste of breath. If you need this capability you can NOT use HDV.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

theres always one dummy
 

Hi Everyone,

I've seen this thread a few times and never looked in until now, just as well it all sounds pretty contraversial. Anyway, just thought I'd come and lower the intellectual tone a bit, so here goes;

1) I've just started to timecode stripe my first tape, however, Judging from the above am I right in thinking I don't actually need timecode?

2) I was kinda wondering what the timecode through firewire thing was? I saw a bit about it in the manual but didn't really get it. Now, flicking through the above, I'm kinda getting the idea you can add time code on capture through firewire, am I getting warm?

3) However, I'm currently shooting sd 25p and capturing on premier 6.5 so is the whole 'do need, don't need timecode thing relevent?

Okay, you can all have a good laugh now.

Happy New Year, Greg C.

I'm going to try to refrain from contributing any more noise to this thread as it just isn't going to help.

Here are my potentially final words.

There is a real and genuine disconnect between folks who want to use HDV for true, multi-suite, traditional post processes and those one man, single suite folks that do it all themselves (and all my best to those folks too, been there).

Basically the workflow issues with HDV are forcing a major change in how a real post facility has to cope with NLEs and HDV material, at least with gear that doesn't work seemlessly with TC and 422 control (despite them being a function of the recording process and the manufacturers putting the hardware and connection points on said hardware). Why include TC at all. Why make it so we can preset time code or gen lock TC from various sources if it doesn't apply or if folks seem to think it is a dead issue?

So what we have is a class distinction Karl Marx would surely recognize. The higher level old school post facilities, like my day job, need and in fact demand, correctly functioning time code and RS422 control for their gear. The single suite folks really don't seem to care then? I think some do but perhaps for the most part they don't?

I do know that if I am given a raw tape and the producer want's a TC window dub on VHS to make an EDL, even if it's just in the form of paper notes, it better be accurate or it's a waste of time. If I am doing anything longer than a few minutes, I want to be able to batch capture the proper segments of my tapes, not the entire duration of all my tapes, just to locate a single shot on each one.

I think the level of "expertise" on the forums is interesting. We can sort of see who is thinking like a post professional and who is "just making it work". Unfortunatly, a thousand people just "living with it" will never get it to change. A thousand professionals demanding proper tools will probaby be heard and maybe get some results. I'm all for the pros demanding tools that work right. Doesn't matter to me if its JVC or Avid or FCP or Liquid...I don't care really. I can say that if it doesn't work in a professional atmosphere, it isn't really professional now is it? I will resist change that detracts from the professional methods that have been established by a long list of folks who have been doing this for a long long time.

Is there room, or a time to change the working methods of any system? Sure. You bet there is. Making it less professional isn't the way to do it however.

HDV is getting better as better tools are developed - and we are all on the edge of this wave. It's a wave where a few of us are going to wipe out and a few will make it to the beach. Some of us will make it because we just can't sink. Some will make it on sheer will power and some of us will make it because they are just plain lucky. I can live with that, but I want to make it because I know that what I am doing is the right way to do it, not on luck.

Anyway, we see the divisions in the system pretty clearly now. I just wish we were all in the same boat paddeling this thing in the same direction.

Sean McHenry

I cannot agree more!
Jiri Bakala

If that's true, then Sean, you don't beleive in DV.

- ShannonRawls.com

Printing to tape
 

Coming back to the drop outs that occur at the final printed back to tape project:
We got the Avid update 5,21 and there are a few things that really work better.
But we still get drop outs while printing back to tape.
The M2T looks perfect on the descktop and while is playing on the monitor during the rec. but when we play back is full of drop outs.
We do not have a problem of control the BRHD50 via firewire, everything works... fine.
We exported to tape using the HD Link program and the drop outs were even more.
We transcoded the project in DNXHD75 not to have layers and potentially unrendered effects and the drop outs were there.
We copied the M2Tfile, 32min - 4,2 GB, and we tried on a mac, the drop outs were there.
We end up with the conclusion that the drop outs are a problem of the BRHD50.
Now we gave the copy of the M2T file to Avid - Jakarta and we wait to see if they will succeed to get it exported back to tape without these defauts.
I ask again people that experience same problems:
Does anybody has a remedy for the problem.
It looks like that we are unable to deliver the project back in HDV 720p format, printed on a tape.
Our clients want to project the movie using an HD projector and the small JVC HD spooler.
Final experience: We exported via Canopus Edius - Same problems. We used a second BRHD50 - Same problems
Panos Bournias

AVID support situation
 

Here is an overview of Avid support for JVC HD equipment:

On 11/23/05 – Added JVC HD-100, Sony HDR-FX1 PAL, Sony HDR-Z1U, Sony HDR-HC1, and Sony HDR-HC1E to the HDV Devices under High Definition.

Specifically:

HD-100:
Frame rates: HDV 720/29.97P, DV30i, DV 25i PAL, DV 24Padv, DV 25P PAL
Control: 1394
IN and OUT captures and batch captures are not supported due to TC limitations
Capture: On the fly only
Digital cut: not frame accurated in HDV
Support since: MCA HD 2.2, XPRO HD 5.2 (PC only)

HD-50:
Fully supported for SD ONLY since Meridien, incl. support for RS422

So, really, until Avid adds the hardware to their list, if it works it's really a bonus. I sure hope they will add it soon...:-)

update from JVC for the BRHD50
 

Yesterday JVC updated my spooler with a new software that will be available at the end of January. This was a beta version and was tried on my spooler as I have the pressure to deliver the project this week. We exported to tape with no drops this time, so I hope that this is the solution that I was waiting for. I have seen the e-mail sent by JVC and it was written that this update is for the better performance of the BRHD50 with Avid.
So I hope that this update solves other problems that occur during the operation of the spooler. Thats all. I
am happy because finally I can deliver a project without dropouts.
Panos B

JVC admits (quietly) issues with 422 control
 

I have been in touch for a while now with one of the Engineers at JVC. He confirmed by e-mail today that there is a software update that specifically targets issues with RS-422 control on the BR-50 HDV decks. He will be working on the upgrades for our decks in the near future.

Also, they have replaced one of our HD-100 cameras as we had a failure to record TC and audio, in DV mode, even though the shooters were able to monitor both during the all day studio shoot. More on that in another thread.

Hopefully this RS-422 upgrade will allow Avid to add the deck to their qualified list, and actually correct any 422 control and ultimatly TC issues.

Sean McHenry

One very positive aspect of Avid is they really know video and the try very hard not to release anything that could screw-up someone's production.

As soon as you said the deck was not approced my guess was that Avid ran into problems in testing. They contacted JVC and said YOU have a problem with our standard way of working with RS-422. We will not change our code base -- you supply some software to us.

Looks like JVC responded and this may allow Avid to certify the deck giving you and the others the TC they need.

I'm not sure if TC will be supported by Avid when 1394 control is used. Avid may decide the 1394 verses RS422 control is the dividing line between the traditional post operation and the one-person post operation.

Apple makes this distinction between FCE using AIV and FCP using HDV.

That very well could be how it shapes up. We will have to see what Avid does next. I think they will certify the deck when this is straightened out. Can't see why they wouldn't.

Once they do that, we will all be much happier.

Sean