OK to MIx JVC ProHD and JVC DV Tapes...?
 

I just received the new camera. (I opted for the HD110 instead of the battery promotion.) I have bought and plan to use the JVC ProHD tapes for all HDV shooting -- as advised here and advised by a local JVC dealer who also rents the JVC cameras.

However, when shooting SD DV is there a problem switching to the JVC DV tapes?

Or is it advised to use only the ProHD tapes for everything? I also use DV Rack for long time shooting, which would be the only time I use SD DV, so the JVC DV tape would acutally just be a backup, and in these situations I use more than one camera, so I'm not concerned about an occasional glitch in the tape.

However, I don't want to mess up/dirty up the heads in the JVC camera -- but I don't know if this is an issue if sticking with the JVC tapes -- ProHD and DV.

(I also have the JVC VTR, but it will only be used for tapes from the JVC camera. Everything else I have is Sony, and with these cameras I use only Sony tapes, and I also have a VTR for the sony tapes.)

Risk vs benefit
 

Well, here's the thing - probably it'd be okay. It's not like you're putting a hunk of peanut butter into it...

But, this camera, while being almost supernaturally tough in some ways, does seem finicky in others. When it comes to to tapes, it seems (perhaps inescapably so) to be band tape senitive. Also, I doubt too many here have done exactly what you're trying.

Me? I think the risk is low. But, this is a new technology doing what even 5 years ago would've seemed impossible, or at least prohibitive money wise. Fact is, even if it did work w/someone else's camera, it might not work out 4 you. It's what you'd risk. Let us know... And good luck.

john
evilgeniusentertainment.com

I wouldn't do it!

Why would you risk missing something just to save a few bucks?

There are plenty of forums here that specifically state problems related to this issue.

Pretty much it appears that you should stick with one type of tape and not switch.

Just my opinion.

Tom

I use the cheap $3 Sony Premium tapes for standard & HDV recording.

They seam to work out fine for both formats. I'm not really shooting anything critical enough that I would spend $10 per tape. The dropouts are minimal. I'm only charging $40-$50/hr right now. I'm not interested in spending 25% of my hourly rate for tape stock. Screw that!

When I get more business, I can raise my rates and perhaps incorporate the better tapes into the deal.

Using the cheaper tapes shouldn't be a big problem as long as you stick to the same type. Different brands of tapes use different types of lubrication, and mixing those can cause problems. If / When you decide you must switch to a different tape, run a cleaning tape before putting the new one in. Don't just switch back and forth though, pick a tape and keep with it until you are forced to change.

I need to re-read about the JVC tapes, but a book I got about this stuff mentioned that some brands had no difference in the actual tape, just that the professional ones had a more sturdy case.

I just bought an HD-100 (probbably the last one), and where I am for now I cannot get the professional tapes. So I will use the regular JVC tapes till I get back to to the US, then run a cleaning tape before switching. If I switch at all, if I do not see dropouts, I will not switch.

I'm with scott
 

I use the 3$ sony tapes too, for 120 drum Hr till now, haven't sean any drops or quality lost

I use the sony cheap tapes too!

Always stick to the same brand.

even if you did switch brands (which some folks do all the freakin' time) wouldn't a pass through a head cleaner reset everything anyway?

It supposed to do that, but remember that the cleaning tape can do a lot of damage to the video head, so don't use it too often.

Don't get complacent about the tapes. I was happily shooting on Fuji DV tapes until I had a serious amount of dropouts on one tape during an important shoot. That was a real problem. I decided that I should try "HDV" tape instead. I was shooting with JVC's "HDV" tape and guess what? Suddenly one tape had the worst set of dropouts I've experienced yet. Unfortunately these are recorded dropouts not playback problems. Fortunately it wasn't a client shoot, just some vacation footage. The next tape was fine.

I have a Focus Enhancements hard disk recorder on order. I'm never going to be in that position again until tape production is improved.

I use Sony professional HDV tape and get a bad tape once in a great while but I review my footage every time I shoot to make sure there is no problems.

When cleaning the heads with the head cleaning cassette, does it also clean the record head? If not, how should I clean the record head?

Thanks.

The "heads" are all one unit.

The rumors of head cleaning tapes causing damage seem IMHO to be either from someone playing them past a count of 10 -- or there having already been some damage -- which is why they were trying to clean the heads -- and the cleaning tape gets the blame.

I also have mixed tapes from day 1 of HDV. Some JVC DV, some Sony DV, some Panasonic DV, plus JVC ProHD and Sony HDV and Sony DVCAM. It seems all work fine. BUT, the probability of encountering a bad tape as well as the probability of DO is LIKELY lower with the PRO tapes or HDV tapes.

So I see the extra cost as insurance.

As far as mixing tapes -- when I get equipment for review they usually include some of their own tapes. Overtime, without even thinking about it, I've used every brand of tape in every brand of equipment. Wet or dry -- I've never experiened any difference. So if I was on location I wouldn't panic if I had to run another brand.

But as insurance I would use the head cleaning tape.

And as insurance I would try to stay with one brand.

Ok, thanks.

What has confused me is why make a machine that plays DVCAM (not records) if one should not put Sony tapes in that machine if you also put JVC tapes in that machine.

Obviously, many, many DVCAM shot tapes are going to be on Sony tape. I have the JVC vcr, but the JVC rep advised me not to put Sony tapes in it -- so why does it play DVCAM?

It seems that Panasonic makes JVC and Canon tapes, so I suppose these three should theoretically be compatible in regards to tape lubricant.

The original problem a few years ago was the lubicrants on the Panasonic vs. the Sony tapes. When mixed, these became tacky. However, I have been told this problem no longer exists. I don't know if this is true. A long time ago I mixed TDK and Sony mini DV tapes regularly, and never had a problem.

I bought the JVC ProHD tapes, but before I put one in the camera, I wonder if I should just use Sony tapes in the JVC camera, since everything else I have is Sony.

I originally bought the BR-HD50U thinking I could get rid of my DSR-11 -- thinking that if it played DVCAM tapes, it would be no problem putting Sony tapes in it. At the moment I have decided to keep the DSR-11 until I make a final decision on what tape to use in the HD110 camera.

As a side note -- in the vtr, is there a problem mixing mini cassettes and full size cassettes in the same machine?

A resonable thing to do when time permits. Sometimes a professional shoot is so hectic and the schedules are so cramped that reviewing each take is out of the question. The two tapes in question didn't have consistant dropouts but a bad patch within the tape. The JVC HDV tape starts out fine gets bad about 10 minutes in, gets really bad and then gets slowly better until about 40 minutes where the problem is no longer apparent.

Dropouts were a problem when DV was first introduced. The whole reason for DVCam's existance is to reduce the effect of a possible dropout by making the tape move past the heads faster. I have only had one bad DV tape in the hundreds I have recorded on in the past 5 years. Many were at concerts or sporting events where you don't have the chance to review each shot. When HDV tape is at the point where I can tape for an hour and have a 99.999% trust that the tape will not fail, that'll be a good day.

Until then the FireStore will have to be my failsafe.

I was told by a JVC tech also that this problem no longer exist but I still stick with the sony HDV pro tapes as they are in mine as well as many peoples opinion the best tape available and with stand the regors of editing very well. I still as steve has said stick with the same tapes just to be safe but if I had to I would use another tape in an emergancy, of course I would clean the heads first with a cleaner that is of the same brand that I had been using in my camera previously

Good point but when you dont have the choice I would use Sony HDV tapes, I have had good results with them.

Jack, I'm actually in the same boat as you. I just ordered a combined shipment of JVC ProHD and the regular DV JVC tapes. I use about ten tapes per event so that's a savings of about $75/week. I shoot mainly SD right now and will use the ProHD for HD shoots. Previously I had been using Panasonic DVM63PQ tapes. http://www.tapestockonline.com/pan63minprof.html

They're nice, but Panasonic doesn't offer an HDV tape (for obvious reasons). So I was left with no assurance in using them for HD (and in tests they showed more dropouts in HD than SD). I will closely watch the performance of this combo and let everyone know what I find.

As a side note, I think it's funny how there is actually no visible difference in the two types of tapes offered by JVC. The only difference you see is that one says ProHD on the front, but this is covered up by the label anyway leaving you no indication which is which once labeled. That’s either bad marketing or it makes you wonder how different they really are.

Correction Panasonic does offer an HDV tape see below but I would still stick with Sony HDV if you want the best results.
http://protape.stores.yahoo.net/paadmaqu63mi.html

I read about those shortly after posting that. But I've heard very bad things about the P-master tapes in the HD-100 as stated in this thread (top of second page):

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=70699

Are these the same tapes? Or have they been changed to work with HDV? All the same I think you're right about Sony's being the best. That may be my final switch if the JVCs don't work out.

When folks talk about tape "differences" they could mean the contruction of the tapes are not the same. This was true with Hi8 or DV LP tapes. I'm very sure it is not the case with the two JVC tapes.

What is "different" is the QC ratings. The ProHD tapes are those whos random QC samples indicate have the highest end-to-end quality. Since these are fewer in number, you are charged a premium price.

You pay the higher price as "insurance" against the probability that the DV tape might have more drop-outs which, however, are less of a problem with intra-frame (DV) codecs than they would be with inter-frame (HDV) codecs.

So using the cheaper tapes for DV is smart.

Difference between JVC HDV and DV Head Cleaner Tapes?
 

I stick with the same JVC M-DV63PROHD Tape stock for both HDV and Mini DV with my HD-100U. My JVC BR-HD50 is brand new with less than 20 hours on it and I'm already starting to get artifacts during playback of tapes recorded in the camera and recorded by the HD50. If I let it play the Head Cleaning Required message appears on the monitor. Does anyone know if there is a JVC Head Cleaner for HDV to use, or can a JVC Mini DV Head Cleaner suffice. I can't imagine it would matter, but just in case?

Cleaner brands
 

I use a Sony Tape cleaner. It works quite well. I've been told the brand of cleaner makes no difference.

I wonder why you're getting problems on the hard drive. That should bypass the tape altogether, right? Are these artifacts actual dropouts (obvious glitches) or are they compression artifacts that sometimes happen w/ HDV?

For what it's worth the transition to JVC tapes has been smooth. Nothing bad to report from using both the JVCProHD and JVC Standard MiniDV tapes in the same camera. The funny thing is that my Sony FX1 is the one to act up now. It usually takes any tape and works perfectly. -Not nearly as finicky as the JVC. But it's told me to use the cleaner tape twice now. Once cleaned, it continues to work fine w/ the JVC tapes. I think my tape solution is finally here.

hi all--- I have a few quick questions about tapes. I just got my HD-100 a week or so ago and it is performing well except that it seems to have a split screen problem as well as sme horizontal striping problems. But I'll address those things in another post.

I have a five pack of cheap Sony DVM 60's that I bought a while back. So far, that's the only tape that's been in the camera because it's what I've had on hand.

My plan has been to use these cheap Sonys to do a lot of testing on the camera itself and not worry very much about drop-outs etc. because I will upgrade to a higher quality tape later when I do the critical shooting.

I gather from what I've read here that a good head cleaning when I switch tape stock and then keeping with a consistent new and better stock after that is good plan. Is that about right?

I've also read around here that the brand of head cleaner doesn't really matter. But if some manufacturers' tapes use wet lubricant and others use dry, wouldn't their head cleaners be different too?

Also-- i'm a little confused about the JVC PRO DV tapes because it seems there are a couple different PRO types available. Which is the best? Is there one that's a little cheaper but still really good?

Does Carl (a really good guy from all the posts I've read from him) just want us to buy PRO JVC stock (for obvious reasons)? Or is PRO JVC stock actually better than the PRO Sony stock? Is one type of lubricating system inherently better than another?

Whew! That's a lot of questions, and I'm afraid I'll be posting a lot more in the following weeks. I bought the HD-100 (the 100 instead of the 110 to get the free AB kit) almost entirely based on the info on these boards (including the forums about the other cameras too, of course) but I must admit, I am already a little worried about some problems with the camera. I'll get into some of that a later time.

But, I can't resist one more random question right now-- I can't find in the manual whether the included mic is phantom powered or not-- I should know bettter, but I don't. What the heck is it?

And finally--- this is a positively GREAT forum (the entire DVi, I mean). I have learned so much here and hope to learn even more. My only hope is that I can give back some "wisdom" or experience of my own sometimes to balance the karma of learning so much from (and asking so much of) you guys.

Thanks much!

Maat,

I think it's safe to say that the JVC ProHD tapes are specifically made to get the best performance out of the JVC ProHD hardware. Just like Sony tapes are engineered to get the best performance out of Sony hardware, ect.

I can say with confidence that out of MY customers, the incidents of tape-related issues is lowest with our own ProHD tapes. You can draw your own conclusion.

Regards, Carl

Just for the record, a couple of weeks ago I was shooting with Sony tapes in SD mode and had no problems. Only a few drop outs when shooting 480x24p. I didn't want to use the more expensive tape for home video stuff. Plus I ran out of tapes and had to get a couple from Wally World, hehehe.

Thanks much Carl! Can you also tell me what the difference is between the different JVC tapes designated as "PRO" (DV60 PRDU; M-DV63 PROHD; MDV 60 DUP)?