DV Info Net

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   JVC GY-HD Series Camera Systems (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-hd-series-camera-systems/)
-   -   HD250 and SDI Setup (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-hd-series-camera-systems/78937-hd250-sdi-setup.html)

Daniel Patton November 5th, 2006 03:50 PM

HD250 and SDI Setup
 
Anyone using or evaluating the HD250 and running through SDI into Blackmagic yet? Do we even have a setup for this yet?

We are running the 250 and could use either FCP or PP2 if anyone knows of a SDI setup that works. The sooner the better would be appreciated as our evaluation period is short.

Thanks

Joe Carney November 5th, 2006 04:03 PM

vegas 7 has built in support for bm cards. You can download the trial for free.

Daniel Patton November 5th, 2006 04:31 PM

Is it simply for SDI? Or is it specific to the 250?

PP2 has HD-SDI as a setup as well, but nothing works through the Decklink of course, and I can't find a setup in the decklink specific for the 250.

Carl Hicks November 5th, 2006 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Patton
Is it simply for SDI? Or is it specific to the 250?

PP2 has HD-SDI as a setup as well, but nothing works through the Decklink of course, and I can't find a setup in the decklink specific for the 250.

Daniel,

Is the HDSDI video and signal getting from the camera to your NLE?

Are you trying to do machine control via HDSDI as well?

Have your tried doing machine control over the IEEE-1394?

Daniel Patton November 6th, 2006 01:00 AM

Carl. from what I can tell we are getting no signal via SDI through to the Decklink Multibridge Pro. No idea if this is BM or JVC issue. BM has no setup that I can tell for SDI and JVC camera.

No setup for machine control / JVC... that I can tell.

No. not tried 1394 since our goal for the 250 was to avoid HDV / tape and work with SDI to the decklink. I can try it Monday if you just want to know if it works via 1394.

Thank You

Carl Hicks November 6th, 2006 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Patton
Carl. from what I can tell we are getting no signal via SDI through to the Decklink Multibridge Pro. No idea if this is BM or JVC issue. BM has no setup that I can tell for SDI and JVC camera.

No setup for machine control / JVC... that I can tell.

No. not tried 1394 since our goal for the 250 was to avoid HDV / tape and work with SDI to the decklink. I can try it Monday if you just want to know if it works via 1394.

Thank You

Daniel, I'm not surprised that the Black Magic card does not have a specific SDI set-up for the 250, since the 250 was just released. The NLE products almost always lag behind the new cameras. Try a HDCam or DVCPro HD setting if it has one.

Have you done basic trouble shooting, like for example, connecting the camera's HD-SDI output to a monitor that is HD-SDI equipped to see if you have a signal? I would do this before you go any further. If you're trying to go live HD-SDI into the BM card and capture there, and you have confirmed that signal is coming from the camera, then the issue must be with the BM card or software or a configuration setting. Also, remember that the GY-HD250 camera can produce a 720p or 1080i live signal, so you might want to try it both ways.

In my question to you about using 1394, my thought was to see if the BM card would allow you to use 1394 only for machine control, and use component or HDSDI for the actual signal. Some NLE's will allows this. Of course, this idea is for capturing off tape.


Regards,

Mark Silva November 6th, 2006 11:53 AM

You should be able to set the remote control for HDV.
Thats your only option right?

Does the 250 even have an rs-422 port?

I've never heard of serial control over HD-SDI.
Is that possible now?

Tim Dashwood November 6th, 2006 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Silva
You should be able to set the remote control for HDV.
Thats your only option right?

Does the 250 even have an rs-422 port?

I've never heard of serial control over HD-SDI.
Is that possible now?

No. You would need a device like the HDConnect LE or SI to convert 1394 HDV control/TC to RS-422 9-pin. At the moment FCP doesn't seem to allow you to unlock HDV deck control from the HDV capture module. It would be great if you could use 1394 for control and TC and HD-SDI for capture.
They'll probably remove this limitation in the next update.

In FCP, any of the 720P60 capture codecs should work (uncompressed, DVCPROHD, or JPEG.) I don't have a HD250 to confirm this for you, but since I was able to capture 720P60 from the HD100 via multibridge, and the multibridge simply converts analog to HD-SDI, then I don't forsee there being a problem with the HD250 in any 720P mode.

Daniel Patton November 6th, 2006 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

In FCP, any of the 720P60 capture codecs should work (uncompressed, DVCPROHD, or JPEG.) I don't have a HD250 to confirm this for you, but since I was able to capture 720P60 from the HD100 via multibridge, and the multibridge simply converts analog to HD-SDI, then I don't forsee there being a problem with the HD250 in any 720P mode.

Yep, everything component works fine from the HD250 to the BM, it's just SDI from the 250 that we wanted to overcome, and no luck there. Since we are looking at the BM device and the 250 with direct SDI to system capture, live during the shoot, my understanding is device control does not apply here.

Carl, we did not expect BM to have setup for the 250, but it was worth a shot. We had a few other considerations for evaluating the 250 early on, and for those items it was worth it. I believe that we will need to do another test once we are sure that the 250, SDI and BM communicate. We did not have an SDI monitor to check output from the 250 (yes this would have made it a little easier), but we did spend roughly 3 hours going through all of the 250's configurations on the Mac Pro, both OS's and on both FCP and PP2 trying to get a working setup for SDI capture. We had the BM monitoring via component to an HD monitor (as Tim mentions it converts) so had we found an SDI setup I believe we would have seen it.

I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea, we kind of expected to run into trouble with the SDI portion of our testing, since I don't believe a setup has been anounced by anyone for use specific with the 250. We had fingers crossed but that's all.

All SDI B*S* aside, the camera with the 13X lens is a super, super nice setup. It's real hard to shoot with anything much less now. I understand that the camera was more richly developed for those who need a good studio camera, and using it first hand I believe the 250 would be an excellent choice for studio work. But it's also very desirable for field work over the HD100, if you have the funding to go that route, you are moving in the right direction.

If no objections to sharing, we took some pictures of the two cameras and compared a few physical features, etc. But I'll save that for another post.

Bill Ravens November 6th, 2006 02:30 PM

Daniel...

Sounds you're breaking trail for those of us who follow. I just bought the HD110 to wet my feet and have ordered the 17x5 lens upgrade from JVC. I expect in the coming year my HD110 will become the beta camera to the HD200 or 250. I see no reason the HD200 wouldn't make a very nice field camera. I look forward to your camera comparison. I do wonder about image compatibility between the HD110 and HD200/250, particularly when captured over component vs. HD-SDI.

Adam Letch November 6th, 2006 09:28 PM

Daniel your the man at the moment
 
I'm sure theres a small following of people waiting eagerly to see what sort of image and slow mo can be pulled out of the camera. I don't know if you were familiar with the HD100/101/110/111 to be able to compare, but I'm interested to see what the new dsp can do and the new colour matrix's. And the new glass as well if your not using the standard Fujinon.

Carl Hicks November 6th, 2006 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens
Daniel...

Sounds you're breaking trail for those of us who follow. I just bought the HD110 to wet my feet and have ordered the 17x5 lens upgrade from JVC. I expect in the coming year my HD110 will become the beta camera to the HD200 or 250. I see no reason the HD200 wouldn't make a very nice field camera. I look forward to your camera comparison. I do wonder about image compatibility between the HD110 and HD200/250, particularly when captured over component vs. HD-SDI.

There is a new GY-HD250 owner in my area that is testing right now with a Discreet Smoke HD-SDI system. With his permission, we'll post some results on that sometime soon.

Greg Milneck November 6th, 2006 09:56 PM

Hi Carl,
Sorry for the delay, the camera left the day I received it to go out on a shoot for National Geographic. It will return on Wednesday and I'll be able to report results with the Smoke 2K system and HD-SDI out.

Daniel Patton November 6th, 2006 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Letch
I'm sure theres a small following of people waiting eagerly to see what sort of image and slow mo can be pulled out of the camera. I don't know if you were familiar with the HD100/101/110/111 to be able to compare, but I'm interested to see what the new dsp can do and the new colour matrix's. And the new glass as well if your not using the standard Fujinon.

Adam,
Like most of you guys, we are familur with the HD100/16X combination, it's what we currently own. The HD250 was on short loan here thanks to Carl and his contacts, I only wish we could have tested longer. But from my understanding the 250 we used is on a tight schedule and for every day we had it someone else was missing out, so off again it went.

We tested the HD250/13X against our current HD100/16X to DVC-PRO HD direct via component to the Decklink (as mentioned no SDI). I also shot a little bit outdoors so we could see what it looks like to MPEG/tape, it's all at the office or I would be digging through it now. ;) I'll share what I have once we have dug through it.

I'm also real interested to see what Greg finds and what SDI setup he uses for the 250 and Smoke. At this point I'm unclear if all you need is simply SDI capture or SDI and the specific "setup" for this camera/data stream.

Adam Letch November 7th, 2006 03:12 AM

Thanks Daniel
 
look forward to it. The SDI output should put this camera into a new realm, and the indie world can only be a better place when such tools are placed in our hands....

Carl Hicks November 7th, 2006 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Patton
Adam,
Like most of you guys, we are familur with the HD100/16X combination, it's what we currently own. The HD250 was on short loan here thanks to Carl and his contacts, I only wish we could have tested longer. But from my understanding the 250 we used is on a tight schedule and for every day we had it someone else was missing out, so off again it went.

We tested the HD250/13X against our current HD100/16X to DVC-PRO HD direct via component to the Decklink (as mentioned no SDI). I also shot a little bit outdoors so we could see what it looks like to MPEG/tape, it's all at the office or I would be digging through it now. ;) I'll share what I have once we have dug through it.

I'm also real interested to see what Greg finds and what SDI setup he uses for the 250 and Smoke. At this point I'm unclear if all you need is simply SDI capture or SDI and the specific "setup" for this camera/data stream.

Hi Daniel,

It will be difficult to give a fair opinion of the camera's HDSDI out without you having a broadcast-quality HDSDI monitor in-hand to view it on. Is it possible for you to borrow or rent one?

Also, on capture, you might try the AJA Kona series. I think they make one that has HDSDI input.

Greg Boston November 7th, 2006 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Hicks
Also, on capture, you might try the AJA Kona series. I think they make one that has HDSDI input.

Yes they do. And in relation to your earlier post, FCP can take in HDSDI output from a Sony F350, while implementing deck control via FW cable. No need to do any RS422 conversion.

I'm guessing the same would be possible using this setup with the new HD250.

-gb-

Tim Dashwood November 7th, 2006 08:21 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston
Yes they do. And in relation to your earlier post, FCP can take in HDSDI output from a Sony F350, while implementing deck control via FW cable. No need to do any RS422 conversion.

I'm guessing the same would be possible using this setup with the new HD250.

-gb-

Unfortunately, HDV FW deck control seems to be "locked" to HDV firewire capture in FCP. If you set deck control to HDV and capture to SDI, FCP will not allow log & capture to open.
The following error will be displayed.

It might be possible to use a DV control preset and put the camera 1394 switch into DV position? It is doubtful TC will pass through properly using this method though.

Daniel Patton November 8th, 2006 01:34 PM

Just a follow up for all 2.3 of you following this. ;)

I spoke with a tech at Blackmagic today and was told that SDI from the HD250 should work fine without a setup specifically for that camera. The only requirement is that the setting in FCP for capture must be the same as the data stream being sent from the camera (frame rate/image size). Otherwise it's a standard signal much like what comes out of component. This may be nothing new to some, but I was still looking for confirmation as working with SDI is new for us.

On the subject of frame rates... is the frame rate coming out of the 250 & SDI 60P or 59.94? This may have been one of the issues with our settings and downfall.


For whatever reason things did not work out for us the first time around with the 250, it should work fine, we just need to dial in all the settings (camera, bridge/hardware, FCP). We had a very limited amount of time with the camera and even less set aside for SDI specific testing. We are working with our rep to get the camera again in the next couple weeks for another round. As mentioned, I'll post examples of what we find.

Side note:
The Blackmagic tech also confirmed that we could both monitor and verify SDI input via the Decklinks component output, and that having an SDI to monitor was not required, the signal is pushed to the other outputs. They claim this is just another added feature/bonus of owning the Multibridge Pro. For signal to signal monitoring it's more desirable to have an SDI monitor, but not required. Regardless, per Carl's recommendation we'll be sure to have an SDI monitor to check output from the 250 next time, if nothing more than as a backup system.

Greg Boston November 8th, 2006 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood
Unfortunately, HDV FW deck control seems to be "locked" to HDV firewire capture in FCP. If you set deck control to HDV and capture to SDI, FCP will not allow log & capture to open.
The following error will be displayed.

It might be possible to use a DV control preset and put the camera 1394 switch into DV position? It is doubtful TC will pass through properly using this method though.

Tim, why would you be using HDV as a capture preset? If you're pulling stuff in via HDSDI, it's uncompressed 4:2:2 and that's what you want to set up for. The HDSDI pipe will bring in stuff from HDV tape, but it will suffer a quality loss vs. running HDSDI live from the camera head.

If all you want to capture is HDV, there's no need to even use HDSDI. Just ingest via FW as it will handle HDV data rates.

In fact, if you are going to come in HDSDI from tape, I would set machine control to FW or FW basic cause all you want to do is control the stop/play ff/rew of the tape for cueing.

If I remember correctly, Mike Curtis' setup with the HDSDI capture card added its own easy setups for FCP.

-gb-

Greg Milneck November 8th, 2006 03:56 PM

We attempted a capture this morning via HD-SDI into our Smoke 2K system. We used 720 60P and no video would pass thru. We just switched the settings to 59.94 and now the Smoke sees the footage.

I'll post more results later after we have time to play with the footage.

Dave Beaty November 8th, 2006 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Milneck
We attempted a capture this morning via HD-SDI into our Smoke 2K system. We used 720 60P and no video would pass thru. We just switched the settings to 59.94 and now the Smoke sees the footage.

We just received our two HD250's here. I have not had time to try HD SDI capture, but would imagine 59.94 is what you want. That is the same problem we had trying to capture 60p analog. It doesn't work with Kona. So we tried 59.94 and all is good. I bet that's the key to your SDI no show.

Dave Beaty

Daniel Patton November 8th, 2006 09:42 PM

Excellent! Thanks guys.

I may be seeing the camera again even sooner than I had thought, sounds like round two should be productive.

Carl Hicks November 8th, 2006 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Patton
Excellent! Thanks guys.

I may be seeing the camera again even sooner than I had thought, sounds like round two should be productive.

Daniel,

One other helpful bit of info that I learned recently from one of our esteemed sales engineers: There is a menu in the 250 that turns the SDI / HD-SDI output on or off. The default setting is off, so out of the box, the camera will not output signal at all on the SDI / HD-SDI terminal. It is set this way to lower power consumption. The menu item is on the second page of the "Video Format" menu. It is labeled "HD/SD-SDI Out", and the two choices are off and on. So, in addition to Dave and Greg's info about the 59.94 frame rate, also check this on/off menu.

Regards,

Carl Hicks November 12th, 2006 09:15 PM

HDSDI live capture to FCP
 
I had an opportunity last Friday to test a GY-HD250 connected to FCP via a Kona device, with HD-SDI. The FCP "Easy Set-up" was set to "DVCPro HD 720p/ 59.94". The capture worked just fine, using "capture now." We were capturing live images from the camera to FCP.

Donald Van Slyke November 12th, 2006 11:28 PM

I came by the booth later that afternoon and they showed me the footage that was captured via HD-SDI. I was impressed by the camera and how easily the footage was aquired via the kona card.

We also tried to ingest HDV60p from the BR-50 into FCP via firewire. But that was a no go. We figured so since FCP doesn't support it yet...although it doesn't hurt to try. I talked to both the JVC rep and the Apple reps and neither knew how long it will be until they get 60p support. Clearly JVC just has to wait for the apple engineers to add it and they wish it was faster...

At this point with FCP capturing with DVCPro HD is way easier than dealing with all the pitfalls for HDV. When I got home from the conference I let the budget people know that we are going to upgrade to the HD250u sometime after the new year. I'm excited to get a demo unit in for testing...


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:29 PM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network