Firmware update for HD200/250 'minimizes' FCP ingest issues
 

JVC has posted a downloadable firmware update for the HD200 and HD250 cameras on their website.

The white paper for the update claims "This firmware will eliminate or minimize the number of clips that Final Cut Pro generates for a continuously recorded HDV section of tape."

I haven't had time to download and install the update yet. I've had exceptiionally good luck in the past so it will be difficult for me to judge if there is a significant improvement.

Therefore, I urge any HD200 or HD250 users who have been having problems to take a scientific approach to the firmware update. Before running the update, capture long section of tape that you've been having problems with. Then perform the update and attempt to capture that same tape again. Please report your results.

I'm hoping this will be the end to the FCP ingest issues, but please don't consider it an excuse to use cheap miniDV tapes.

I also hope that a similar update for the HD100 and HD110 is just around the corner.

If you don't feel comfortable conducting this update yourself, don't be embarrassed to take your camera to your dealer or local JVC service department. There is a risk of damage.

Here is the link to the firmware update.
http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/HD...ade/index.html

Nothing but the finest, most expensive JVC top-of-the-line tape has ever touched our GY HD100UA, and we nonetheless had the problem interfacing with FCP from day one of our ownership of the camera.

So based on this experience it is not correct to assume that the problem has been related to tape quality. Low quality or non-JVC branded tape may exacerbate the problem, I don't know. But if your camera has the bug (or whatever it is) in it, high-quality tape will not save you from suffering.

And of course if you have an HD100UA or HD110, as of now there is NO solution for us except for the abandonment of tape in favor of digital recording direct to a revolving hard drive. "DTE" (as it is called) is our only sure solution: It's costly, but it works and delivers further benefits as well.

I'm so happy with the DTE solution that I bought another one of these cameras as soon as I learned of the DTE "fix." This 720p-capable camera (100UA or 110) is so wonderful that I did not hesitate to get another one for a split second, once the DTE solution became clear.

Why on earth would they not have an update for the HD100/110? Since it has the exact same problem? I really hope the HD100 update is coming soon!

I think the MPEG Streamclip work-flow will be with us for some time to come.

I'm thrilled to have downloaded this...
 

...but I'm going to wait to actually rejoice until the 24p sequence I shot yesterday comes in. But if there's still the 7 sec delay on clip change, then while I may enjoy the 'performance boost', I'm just going to be feelin' "Warmest Regards" and not a full Joice. Certainly not a "RE: Joice."

No way.
 

Can't you capture with AIC and ignore all this? I'm under the impression that the issues I'm having with native HDV captures in FCP aren't there (they haven't been for me) when using the HDV Apple Intermediate Codec straight capture...

I just tried the DVHScap workflow tonight. It's "fun" to see the raw .m2t in Streamclip once you have it - but to then wait to then transcode it? I'd rather eat glass. Seriously - it may work in some needful cases - but it just doesn't cut it for real workflow. The transcoding triples the time for an hour capture. And of course not shooting to an HDD doubles it I suppose...but if you're doing it for archive purposes in addition to capturing it, ok...the .m2ts are nice (to then put to DVD).

And if you're going to wind up transcoding it to edit it anyway, then the direct capture (assuming it works for you) into FCP via AIC seems like the way to go.

Will this update also work in Europe type E camera's, or is it an update for US camera's only?

But I post using Sheer's 4:2:2 codec, so to ingest using AIC and then transcode to Sheer's codec is too much loss for my tastes. I would rather wait and get it into Sheer's codec as it saves time and lotsa spce in the long run for me. I would prefer to ingest in Sheer's codec, but alas I'll continue to transcode. Hmmmmpphh.

I agree with that if you require compositing freedom. May I ask why you didn't choose to work with a codec/capture board that's already out there? Like a Kona or Blackmagic? I haven't tried to bring it in under another setting via firewire, but with a capture card, you could take care of that easy. Seems like you could recoup the cost in time alone in one, maybe two shoots and then you've got your life back. :D

Card Reader?
 

What are you Mac users doing for a card reader? That's going to put a kink in my upgrade....

my dell monitor :) I can also use my palm treo.
- but card readers are a dime a dozen. I've got a dedicated one in a drawer somewhere. The USB ones should just plug and work on a mac.

Oh, I've got card readers - but they don't seem to handle SD cards...

The thing that I wonder is - weren't people having trouble even using the BR-HD50 deck? Or am I wrong? Is the broken up clip missing seconds phenomena ONLY when capturing from the cameras?
All updates are very welcome. Thank you JVC!
(I even got a note from Craig Yanagi directly notifying about the upgrade!)

Good question.

Well, the update went fine over here, but it sure doesn't help that ridiculous 7 second delay in recognizing the dv start/stop. It's more infuriating than I can to get into. Seriously - I can't stand it.

Is anyone else having HDV capture delays on scene change? Please, don't tell me to roll 10 seconds before each shot. I could care less what's happening in the scene - I want a clip AT the start/stop break. I'll capture whatever way does that...without buying a card I'll just have to replace in a year....*sigh.

You can shorten the gap to about 2-3 seconds if you adjust the pre roll & post roll in the Audio/Video Settings. Select the "Device Control Presets" tab, then click on the HDV firewire profile and hit the EDIT button to change the settings.

After saving the new profile, make sure it's selected with a check mark next to it.

I think we're talking about the same thing - the video is rolling the entire time, right? I'll certainly give it a shot, but I'm not talking about Batch Digitize - I'm referring to Capture Now where the tape just rolls in and clips are made at each stop/start mark...

Yes, shortening the pre/post roll to 1 second works for "capture now" as well to help shorten those gaps.

Well, that *will help things a bit, but it does leave some room for improvement....

So have you tried it yet?

It helped to make my gaps 2-3 seconds instead of 5-7 seconds.

I don't even capture in HDV anymore anyway. I use AIC simply because it gets rid of that GOP, and gives faster rendering times.

JagYouAre
 

I should have just done it, but I plain forgot! I just put together a short piece on a '67 black Jaguar on a mountain road. I've got a lot of work to get to Top Gear, but it was pretty cool. I shot it 24p again, but tortured myself using DVHS and Streamclip...for some reason.

I actually have no desire to use HDV - it was chunky in the timeline, in fact, the only reason I wanted to was because it was "native" and I wanted to test and see if there was any reduced artifacting - which I'm not sure AIC introduces. I can't tell much of a difference.

What's interesting is that the transcoded footage is marked 59.94 - yet plays fine in the timeline. When I capture HDV 24p via AIC, the footage gets marked that as well, but plays super fast (hm, like 60pfs!) and when it captures, it stutter/spurts the entire time....so there's a correlation and some other problem...

I'll post that video on the Jag tomorrow.

I finally got around to changing that preference - it helps - it's probably going to work for me. Not perfect, but it is much better.

Here's the thread on that '67 Jaguar (test) shoot. Here's a link to page on the site.

Just out of interest, what gear are you guys using? I'm new to FCP (Avid in the past) but I just finished a 90-min documentary with about 3000 edits (including audio) in native HDV1 and then 10-bit uncompressed. Everything was incredibly slick and responsive on a single timeline. The project became a bit sinister in size but editing performance was just fine. Also, aside from the shot-change breaks I had no issues conforming the timeline moved over from the Avid offline.

I'm running a MacPro 2xdual2.66 with 3GB RAM and a RAID0 eSATA stripe. I realise this is a pretty new and fast set-up but it's by no means cutting edge.

I'm FCP as well, Dual 2.5 Power PC. What was your frame rate? I would expect it to go smooth...

Did you bring the captured footage from Avid as well, or did you conform it recapture in FCP?

It was conformed from an Avid offline, so shot breaks presented no problem because I was just recapturing decomposed clips from the Avid, none of which ran up the ragged end of the shot. It's also worth mentioning that during the shoot we deliberately left ourselves an extra 5 seconds head/tail on each shot on top of the usual head/tail margins, based on advice from JVC and others. With a new fast Mac, plenty of RAM and under these controlled conditions there were no problems at all. I can see how trying to capture an entire tape in one hit is a pain but this is something we would rarely try to do from something like HDV or DV - from DigiBeta yes but not from a purely acquisition format. I do understand that others choose to work differently and capture an entire tape for whatever reason. However, many other NLEs that support HDV have this sort of problem on shot breaks - Edius is a good example. Liquid seems to behave much better on HDV capture than any other NLE I have used FWIW.

We were working with 720p/25 HDV1.

Delay in capturing
 

YES!!! I am getting the delay as well, and it stinks. I have the 110u and at 1st thought it was my Mac slowing down but its not. JVC help!!

leaving at least 5 secs of preroll when shooting is video 101. I've been shooting for 20 years and would never dream of intentially shooting without preroll, thats just bad shooting and asking for trouble. my personal habit is that if I am shooting HH, I hit the trigger before even getting the camera up to my eye. by the time I've framed, focused and irised 10 secs may of rolled by and I never miss a shot.

what I have found is that if you do mark a real I and O in capture, you can capture the entire clip. its when you simply try to capture the tape without marking IO that you get the 5-7secs break.

Steve Oakley

Shooting pre-roll is simply not always the best option. I shoot candids on incentive trips, usually rolling 6-8 hours of tape in a 3-4 day period. I pull hundreds of shots from every tape. If I were to pre-roll 5-10 seconds, not only would it add dramatically to my digitize time, I would spend an extra few hours every day sifting through material. Time that I don't have on a quick turnaround edit.

I have to be able to capture tapes in their entirety and then sort through shots. Trying to mark I and O with the speed of firewire is not an option when you're pulling hundreds of clips.

Also, when you're shooting for people's actions and reactions, you have to be able to pull the trigger as you see it occuring. The other option is just to always be rolling.

So while shooting pre-roll may work in certain shooting instances, it does not work for all.

Has anyone had the chance to test out this update yet? It would certainly help with timelapse shots. We were doing a bunch of those, rolling 10-20 minutes at a time. When using HDV in FCPro, the shots would be broken up. I think that's what this addresses, not the clip start delay in FCPro.

That is the real killer problem for us as well. We can't use AIC or MPEGstream Clip because they don't support HDV Timecode. We do documentary and the sound bites from the tapes are transcribed and logged into the scripts for the editor. We need to maintain TC throughout the production process to stay in sync with the script. When hundreds of clips are in the bin, having TC is a god send.

I don't know that everyone has that same need for timecode, but because of it we are suffering through the clip start delay and trying to shoot on Firestores on each shoot.

Totally. Just to be clear, I'm advising an EXTRA 5 seconds pre-roll on top of the usual 5-7 secs (or whatever) margin that people are used to. Also, it's not such a bad idea to let the camera roll on in short breaks between takes since DV tape is pretty cheap.

I did extensive testing today with the HD250 firmware and the FCPro 5.1.4 Split Clip problem. Unfortunately I am left more puzzled than ever. I think what I found speaks volumes about this problem and the users out there.

First, we have about 6 of the HD50's and 2 HD250's. We have 2 full blown edit suites with all outboard gear, AJA Kona and so on.

First I updated the camera with V1.0.5 for the VTR system as posted on JVC's website. Then I recorded 50 minutes of HDV30p color bars on a Panasonic DVMQ tape. Then I cleaned the heads and recorded 20 or so on a Sony HDV tape.

My edit room was busy so I went to an isolated Mac Pro with a BR-HD50 attached and FCPro 5.1.4 to digitize this material. The HD50 had old firmware, so I updated that unit to 1.0.8. I think it had 1.0.6.

I did an easy set up, set to HDV 720p30 and saw the capture scratch was internal HD. I started a capture now with the Panasonic Tape. Immediate splits. Every 6-10 seconds I was getting a split with the "searching for TC" then "capturing" on the capture window...every few seconds a new clip. I got up to 48 clips before I stopped at about 6 minutes into the continuous shot. I then put the Sony HDV tape in. Same problem. Split's Ville City. I was thinking...OK, this update made the problem WAY worse that I had it before.

Next step, try another system and HD50. So I moved to my edit room in another part of the building and set up the same Easy Set Up and loaded the first tape. BR50 with 1.0.6 firmware. Log and Capture to my external 4 disk SATA RAID 0. ..Capture Now...no splits! I captured about 20 minutes before I stopped to write this. I was totally surprised that the systems caused that much difference in the problem.

They both are Mac Pro's with about 3 or 4 Gigs ram and FCPro 5.1.4. Both have the HD-50 and Easy Set Up Defaults, both have the same OS, 10.4.9. The only diff, as I see it, is bandwidth of the capture disks. Any other testing anyone can think of?

Perhaps this has some explanation why some users are seeing this and others are not.

Dave Beaty

I don't suppose the deck firmware would have anything to do with it? I mean, the original solution was a camera firmware update - or - the playback mechanism. I wouldn't think the firmware on the deck made the difference, but perhaps you could take the deck into the other room and run the capture again...

Maybe scratch disk preferences could potentially do something, too - are they set to (not the same volume) the same thing capacity-wise? Meaning - leave so much drive space free, etc. Are they both capturing a/v or just a or just v?

.02
jeff

I can't remember if OS X is an "interrupt driven" or an "event polling" OS. If it is polling OS, the faster it can get rid of a block of data, the faster it can poll for the TC data from the camera/VTR. It's possible that with a tape rolling and slow disks -- when the computer does get around to checking TC -- the count is not what is expected. So it thinks there has been a TC break.

PS: If 720p generates a new TC every 1/60th second, that is twice as often as 1080i that is every 1/30th second. Thus, with 1080i the computer would have twice as much time to get back to checking TC. Thus, no problems.

All this is speculation, of course.

I have a deck here with V1.08 and it captures MUCH better than the HD100 without update , not that there is one... yet ! do hope there is though.

I'm curious though - why use sony and another brand back to back ? thats almost asking for a problem.

one setting you need to change, and I bet its the difference, is to go into User Prefs in FCP and change the timecode break setting to warn after capture. its really out of the way when you think about it, but that solved a lot of problems plus the firmware update and I am close to 100% successful with FW capture. G5 2.5G 4.5G ram fcp 5.1.4 everything else current

I am also close to 100% success rate on the broken clip issue, capturing from an HD 100(a) to a G5 DP 2.0, 6GB RAM, FCP 6, usually over firewire.

I have a 2TB Raid that tests over 200MB per second and an internal 500GB SATA data drive that tests over 60MB per second with AJA System Test.

I haven't found any consistent difference between these two drives.

Regarding my testing with two identical systems...

I started testing with the system A with internal capture scratch, the HD50 had 1.0.4 firmware...I thought this was the problem, so I flashed it to 1.0.8. But no change in the splitting up of clips. So firmware of the deck did not change things. (The system B with RAID capture scratch had firmware 1.0.6 and captured with no splits).

I think Steve Mullen may be on to something. I plan on bringing a Firewire 800 drive up and capturing to that with the same tapes. If this is the case, then the seemingly random user experiences may have more to do with system specs than any one failure within the JVC/Apple protocals.

Let us know what you find out I am very curious see what happens.

I just finished capturing the same tapes to the Mac Pro that was giving me the splits. This time I attached a Western Digital Firewire 800 500GB drive as the capture scratch.

I captured 10 minutes of the same material with absolutely NO splits. With capture scratch set to internal, I was up to 20 clips in the last test.

So I conclude, at least some of the issues with splitting up of continuous takes is capture drive related. This is assuming you have the latest firmware in the camera and deck.

The internal system HD is NOT a place you want to capture too in any event.

So now if we could overcome the loss of material at the START of each clip we would be very happy editors. Setting preroll to 1 sec helps reduce the loss of material, but it still is a huge problem. I think this will take a software change on Apple's part to fix.

Dave Beaty