Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

First off I'm very sorry to start a "new" thread on this. However, I feel this issue is so important that it's something we ALL need to check out in our cameras.

Does YOUR camera capture "interlaced fields" in HQ 1080i 30p mode?

It's VERY possible that it does and you might not even know it! Why? Because your cam MUST be set manual at exactly a 1/30th shutter speed.

Try this simple test on your cam now;

1.) Switch to 1080 HQ 30P mode. This is the ONLY mode you will see it in.
2.) Go to full manual and record
3.) Hit the shutter button and drop it to EXACTLY 1/30th speed.
4.) Move camera slightly to generate motion.
5.) While on same recording, bump up shutter speed to 1/60th speed
6.) Move camera slightly to generate motion.

That's it! Throw your new clip into your editor. Make sure your project settings match 1080P 29.97 PROGRESSIVE. (screen on camera is too small to evaluate)

DO YOU SEE INTERLACING FIELDS ON THE 30 SHUTTER SCENE AND CLEAN PROGRESSIVE ON 60 SHUTTER PARTS? (try freezing clip or go slo-mo)

I'm betting many JVC GY-HM100's out there ARE doing the same thing at that shutter speed. I was told by JVC that all sensor images are natively read progressive and sent to the DSP to get processed. If you are in an interlaced mode, the DSP will split it into fields and send it to the encoder. All functions well with any other mode/speed combination but this combo is where the "glitch" happens.

Here are some simple screen shots. (Not edited in any way and are from the same clip literally seconds apart.)

30P 30 shutter;
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4564537/30P%...%20shutter.jpg

30P 60 shutter;
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4564537/30P%...%20shutter.jpg

It's very important to remember that these two screen caps are from the SAME "progressive" video clip. The ONLY change is the shutter speed!


Please try this simple test with yours and reply to the thread if you can. This is a problem that JVC has acknowledged and reportedly fixed in the "early" release models. Mine is only 3 months old and I purchased from BandH. Also has the latest "class 10 SD card" firmware.

I love my GY HM-100 and I think JVC Pro is a good organization. I have already spoken to two JVC support people and they are asking for me to ship my camera to them. My only goal in this thread is to see how widespread the issue is. It's not to "slam" JVC.

CT

Last important note: 1080 24P recording does NOT show this problem at any shutter speed. You must be in the exact combo of 1080 HQ 30P with 1/30 shutter.

P.S. For those needing to see the raw .mp4 video that these 2 pix came from, you can download it here. It's about 250 megs.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4564537/884_0158_01.MP4

Yes, me too.
 

I just tested tested using your conditions and was able to reproduce it.
Pretty much always use 1/60th so I never saw it before.
Guess I'll be sending mine in too.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2246838/60th%201080%2030p.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2246838/30th%201080%2030p.png

Me too
 

I get the interlacing when shooting 1080 30p with 1/30 shutter. It is fine with 1/60

I have the upgraded Firmware also.

I KNEW it!!

JVC has been very polite about this so far. However, I get the slight feeling that they don't beleive me yet. They saw my footage and are now asking for my camera, so I guess I'll send it in.

Guys,..It is my humble belief that ALL our cameras have this problem.

Keep testing and PLEASE post your results!

Thanks, you guys ROCK!

CT

PS,..this problem is particularly bad because these interlacing fields CAN'T be removed from an already progressive frame. It's literally "burned" into the image that way.

Has anybody tested their GY-HM100, found the problem AND simply does not care about it?

Just wondering.

CT

Well, I have a new(ish) HM100 and I definitely care (and have been watching this thread) -- it's just that I won't be in any position to test it until next week at the earliest...

It's like the same problem with the RED, with p25 you must shot your footage with 1/50 to get a good picture quality.

anyone know if this is the same with the PAL settings?
if so, would it be, 25p at 50 shutter is fine,
but, 25p at 25 shutter will show interlacing, yeah?
Forgive my newbness, but is it only the much talked about loss of quality of having to interpolate fields that makes this a problem?
Only because, when I convert to Neoscene and make interlaced footage into progressive, I just cant see the difference on a 50" plasma between the original and the new progressive file.
What am I missing?

Honestly not sure about PAL and it would be unfair to JVC for me to guess.

It's important to understand what is happening. The camera is placing interlaced fields or something very similar to it and "burning" them into a "solid" progressive frame codec. (another explanation is that the camera is simply reading out the sensor in some kind of a "strange" scan order.)

The problem happens on NTSC when progressive the frame rate (High Quality 30p) and the manual shutter speed (1/30th of a second) meet together. Check your your PAL 25p and set your shutter for 1/25th.

Folks, this artifact CANNOT be removed. You cant "de-interlace" a frame that is NOT interlaced. These captured "field lines" are stuck in your image forever. (until you bump up the shutter to 60 or higher, than your video looks great)

MY GY HM-100 is now packed up and is going back to JVC today.

Test it and then fix it while you have a chance folks,

CT

Solved
 

Cliff - see my post: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-h...ml#post1574314

hey, well I have bad news for all us PAL people,
just checked,
1080 25p 25 shutter = Interlaced frames. :(((((
1080 25p 50 shutter = all is good.
I guess im ringing JVC....

@all
i will test it this weekend, is the problem in 720p50 too?
I´m Recording in Pal.
greetings
René

I thought this was pretty much a universal problem with native 60i cameras. I have to use double the frame rate to overcome the interlacing with my Vixia HF-11.

I think there might be some misunderstanding as to what is happening. Lemme try to explain it differently.

This is essentially a "shutter" or "sensor readout" defect. The problem literally puts a "comb" effect into your image. If you were shooting in 60i this would be perfectly normal and natural. You could simply deinterlace each 1/60 field into one progressive (1/30 of a second frame rate) image if you want to.

However, this problem will place two visible "upper and lower fields" TOGETHER into a PROGRESSIVE frame that is 1/30th of a second. (it's a NASTY artifact when there is motion)

What "should" be happening is that you should see ONE, SOLID progressive image at 1/30th of a second into a codec running at 1/30 frame rate. Simple, right?

This defect literally destroys the quality of the 30P frame. It's is ruined forever and NOTHING can remove that artifact. Remember, you cant "deinterlace" an image that is NOT interlaced.

Again. I know I sound like a broken record on this but I REALLY hope that all GY HM-100 owners take this seriously. If you shoot in manual, you could very well have a camera that will permanently "F-up" your footage!!!

If you are reading this and care about your video quality, check your camera now. (I wont say it anymore)

I feel bad for JVC but they need to issue some kind of public warning or recall notice on this. I'm glad I spotted the issue with test footage then to have found it with "real" footage. I would have DIED if I shot this for customer paying event. (thank God)

CT

Thanks for posting all of this, Cliff! I really appreciate it. I'm going to check my camera tomorrow.

Problem solved!

JVC upgraded the Camera version to 1.11 and the issue is FINALLY solved!

Good luck to all the folks with past and future ruined footage!

Case closed.

CT

Got mine updated to 1.11 today at JVC in CA.

Problem fixed. Thanks JVC and Cliff

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Yes.

I have shot a lot of important background material for a fully financed documentary on this camera.

About to go into post-production....

So many clips have it! OUCH!

've shot about 40 hours on this camera, with the intention of cutting it together with A-Cam material (Sony EX1).

What is the solution to this?

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Sorry Hermann, there is currently no way to repair footage already shot. It would involve someone (JVC) writing a new program with an algorithm specifically designed to correct the problem. It would take a person with the sophistication of the MPEG LA group to figure it out.

The only way out is to reshoot after you've updated your firmware, or with another camera.

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

JVC NEEDS to publicly post this problem on their site.

As far as your footage; Did you shoot it at a 1/30 shutter speed? If you shot it higher, than you should be OK.

CT

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Hi Cliff

How do I find out which shutter speed it was shot with?

Thanks

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

I just checked the firmware and apparently I have the latest version of the software...

It was all 1920x1080 25p footage... there is so much of it messed up- I can send you a link to some of the footage if necessary

any thoughts would be really appreciated,,, its an observational documentary in africa so i won't be able to reshoot the stuff... it would be a disaster if i've lost the footage

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Hermann,

I totally found this problem by accident. (not shooting anything important) I was just paying around with shutter speeds, high and low. I was just testing noise levels in low light. When it saw interlacing fields, I thought it was my monitor and I dismissed it and put my camera away thinking everything was fine.

Two weeks later, I was doing a side by side test with my EX1r and saw the problem again. I then realized it was NOT my monitor because my EX1r footage looked amazing. I shot some more stuff ant 60 shutter and then thought "Nah,..my camera looks fine, this is just some freak glitch."

Finally I did one more low light side by side with my Sony FX1000. I hit 30 shutter and saw it again! That's when I realized that I was not imagining the whole thing. I could recreate the problem easily, 30p video at a 1/30 or lover shutter speed. Take her above that, problem magically disappears.

I sent 3 samples and two screen caps to JVC. At first they didn't exactly believe me in New Jersey, but when the camera got to JVC California, they had the solution. (the two offices need to talk about this)

The key fix is that the camera must have "Cam Version 1.11" You cant upgrade this yourself. Its takes a special cable plugged into the camera mainboard.

Are you running Cam Version 1.11 or higher?

Can you see the interlaced lines in your progressive shot video?

One more thing,..all of my experience comes with the NTSC side of this mess. I cannot even say for sure that your PAL camera even has our problem.

How does you video look?

CT

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

I use PAL version (HM100 E). I also have 1.1.. No problem what so ever.

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Can anyone using the HM100E please tell me if:

1. you have firmware beyond 1.07 installed

2. and if so you actually were able to download it from a viable web page

3. and if so... where?

I went through the JVC Europe landing and followed instructions and it would only let me download firmware version 1.07 which I already have.

Or is that it for the HM100E ??

Cheers

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Steve, I have firmware version 1.10 which came with my JVC GY HM100 when I purchased it in June 2010. This was the latest UK firmware update at the time and solves the interlacing when shooting in progressive issue. Current US versions of the camcorder have 1.11 which also solves this issue.

Please note that you will not be able to download either update. If you are having problems with the interlacing issue you will need to return the camcorder so JVC can update the firmware. Luckily for me I purchased my UK camcorder after JVC were notified of the problem.

Note that this issue was previously addressed by Mark Slocombe (CreationVideo) who posted the following back in September 2010:

''I've just been at JVC hq in London with Mike Turner, the chief engineer. He advised me that there is a software update that eliminates the problem where interlaced frames are recorded whilst shooting in progressive modes. It is a free update to version 1.10. but needs to be done by JVC.''

Like Mark, my camcorder, which obviously had the software update applied a few months before, has CAM Version 1.10. Arm is 1.05 and EEPROM is 052.

Hope this is of help.

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

I have some expertise with digital filters and custom image processing. Have you been able to salvage your footage?

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

I have bought my JVC GY-HM100 in july 2009. I have (luckily) filmed in the automatic mode most of the time.
When I read about the "interlacing" problem in this forum a month ago, I checked the camera:
1080p30 1/30s > interlacing problem
1080p25 1/25s > interlacing problem

So, my camera "has the problem too".
I have brought my camera to the shop, and I am discussing now with them the warranty rules in my country ...

My opinion is that JVC should have organised a "call back" action. Now I do have the problems and the costs.

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Hello everyone,

I have a problem with some gy hm 100 footage and I was wondering if there is a link with what is being discussed here.
In this footage for exemple, there is a "comb-flickering effect" (I don't know exactly how to call it)... Anyone knows what it is (shutter, OIS, something else?) I'm shooting 1920/1080 50 i

YouTube - ‪exemple b roll with default gy hm 100‬‏

My hm 100 version is 1.07.

Thanks,
Fabrice

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

@Fabrice
This is definitely not the "interlacing" problem that is discussed in this thread.
The problem described in this thread ruins your video completely (like a raster or sunscreen over your image).
You will see it clearly in these modes (if you have the camera fault):
1080p30 1/30s
1080p25 1/25s

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

@Anthony, all right, thanks...

But I still have to figure out what this is. Not good enough for broadcast anyway (watch the video with full screen to get convinced

YouTube - ‪exemple b roll with default gy hm 100‬‏)...

And I don't know what to do (and JVC Canada is not answering me...) If anyone could give me a hint....thanks!

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Fabrice,

I'm in British Columbia and I also had problems getting in touch with the appropriate contact to get my HM-100 serviced for this issue. I eventually had to contact VP of JVC Professional Canada. He was very helpful and passed along my email to the JVC support in Toronto, which is probably where you'll have to send yours for the firmware update. Unfortunately for me being on the west coast it took almost two weeks from the time I sent it out until I got it back (which cost me a minor job).

Anyway, I recommend you start by emailing Greg Cameron with your concerns. Alternately, you could try calling one of the authorized JVC shops in Montreal. Here's the contact list, Greg Cameron at the top of the page, Montreal shops about halfway down the page.
JVC Professional Products Company - Canadian Contacts and Dealers

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Jordan,

I contacted Greg -VP JVC Canada- 2 weeks ago. After 3 emails, he finally answered me. Here is exactly what he wrote :
"I gave this project to an engineer to follow up with you. His
comment was that it likes a progressive to interlace translation issue. The
NLE being used seems to be making adjustments to the frame rate. My engineer
had to look at it from home as YouTube is blocked on our services at work.
Again, I am sorry. Greg"

And that's it. No solution, no advice. End of the story.

Then I asked : how can I get it fixed?
No more answer.

I have to fly to the states this friday to shoot a report for a french customer. I will shoot 1920/1080 50i. And I can't trust this camera anymore. All I know is : if I really have to pan, I will go very slowly... and pray! (I wish I could film in a museum!)

Thanks anyway for your message Jordan,
Fabrice

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Oh and I forgot... if NLE (non linear editing) means Final cut pro, it's all wrong because I could double check this issue with Quicktime 7.0 on several mac book pros, without opening FCP 7.0. The problem comes from the camera, not from the editing system...

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

@Fabrice
Have you already checked the "interlacing problem" by shooting two scenes?:
1080p30 1/30s
1080p25 1/25s

Make a pan with both settings.
Watch the footage, that comes directly from your camera, in Quicktime. This way you can rule out that it is the well known interlacing problem.

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Fabrice,

I'm really surprised at his response because this is a known issue and it's not the first time he's dealt with it (mine for example). I would continue to call his contact phone # and keep leaving messages and emails until they address it. What horrible service you've had. Let me do some digging in my old macs archived emails and see if I can bring up some additional contacts for you. When I first contacted them I linked them to this forum thread as well as the other one here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-gy-h...sive-mode.html
A moderator at DVinfo should really merge these two threads.

Re: Survey - Is YOUR GY HM-100 defective. (simple test)
 

Use the Report Post function (the little "!" icon to the left of any post) to make that happen.