How many times can one safely.........
 

Reuse a 80/83 minute tape without significantly risking increasing the possibility of drop-outs so that it not worth trying. I ask because they can be almost 3 times more expensive than std DV tapes and very long term I've been using std dv tapes over and over with no problems. I bought Pannies.

Thanks for any comments,observations and experience offered.

Bruce

None. You can't safely reuse any tape. Period.

I disagree. One might just as well say, "you cant use any tape safely". A tape may cause problems the first time it is used, or the 100th. I use Sony Digital Master tapes up to 30 times in my tape based B cams. And then they are put to use in family members camcorders, never had a problem. If it makes you feel better use a brand new tape on important jobs. But tape technology is very mature, and these tapes are designed and built to be used many times. Remember to always take some test shots before serious use, be it a brand new, or used tape.

Adam, what's your evidence for this conclusion? I've seen this question asked many times, and only seen opinions in response. No one seems to have any real info.

Personally, I've reused tapes many times (in non-important usage, just in case), and have seen no issues at all.

Anyway, Bruce, try searching "reuse dv tapes" on Google, and enjoy reading!

Tape is the single least expensive component in the production chain.

*Why* would you want to re-use it?

Unless we're talking about non-critical personal use only.

In a test, I reused a pana dvm83pq up to 20 times before any issues. The dropout issue I had at that time may have been caused from the tape rewinder used (don't use them - there all junk).

I regularly reuse 83pq's up to 4 times after bulk erasing them without problem. Wouldn't reuse them without b/e due to latent imaging of previous recorded material showing through if a dropout does occur. I shoot using a dvd backup so odds are that if there is an issue your be safe having two sources.

Sidebar - I worked at a tv station many years ago and we used the 3/4 tapes many times after erasing. Yes, real estate is greater on the 3/4 tapes but mini dv like the Pany should be fine as long as their used in a relative clean environment - i.e. not dusty conditions - which is usually the cause of most dropouts.

If it was truly a non-issue, wouldn't you be re-using tapes for critical once in a lifetime events? You only do this for unimportant stuff because you know that every time you run a tape over a rapidly spinning drum, you increase the chances of a problem.

Chris is right -- it's the cheapest thing in the food chain and reuse is false economy.

Evidence? Only the thousands of posts all over the web from people who have dropout problems and then admit they're reusing tapes to save a couple of bucks. And sure, you can have a problem with a new tape, but the odds are much less because the very act of using a tape degrades it and makes it more likely to fail.

3/4" tapes were less of an issue because they were analog and built to industrial standards, not just because they were bigger.

Hi Adam,

I don't reuse tape for important production because of these opinions I keep reading. But again, they are only opinions. No where have I seen actually evidence or tests that prove to me that reusing tape is problematic.

It's like the "do we only use one brand" controversy. All kinds of anecdotal posts all over, no real evidence.

Reuse is false economy? Perhaps. But it's good environmentally. Imagine the amount of tape that goes into landfills over the world. Reusing tapes just once would cut that in half. If we had solid evidence, and not just opinions, it could become good economy, and more environmentally friendly to boot.

In my own non-rigorous testing, I've reused tapes many times, and notice no difference.

No hackles, no worries ;)

Everyone has their own philosophy on this. Some people say I'm silly because I use the cheapest tapes I can find (Sony Premiums) but only use once and then file on the shelf (no landfills for my tapes -- I burn them or dump them in the ocean when I'm done).

Hey guys, how many of you used to throw away a VHS tape after using it once, in the recorder under your TV ?

a) it's analog, so a dropout isn't that visible,
b) the resolution is horrible, less than 4% of the effective pixels of HDV, so you wouldn't notice a dropout or other flaw anyway
c) time-shifting a TV show is the lowest priority thing I could think of, so quality is irrelevant anyway

...so the analogy is totally without merit.

But when I was archiving broadcast TV shows on VHS, each tape got recorded on once and then put on the shelf. Forever.

Hahaha.....that is fantastic!

I too use the Sony Premiums. In over 2 years of shooting weekly live music events on the same 10 tapes, I only had two slight dropouts on 2 different tapes, both at about the 16 month mark. I saved hundreds of dollars in tape, and only lost about 1 minute of actual footage combined.

I had one new tape that malfunctioned on it's first run, about 3 minutes in, where I lost about 2 minutes of footage

I understand that a lot of situations are too special to take a chance on ANY dropouts.....but judging by my (non-scientific) experiences, there is MORE of a chance of of a new tape dropping out than dropouts from a reused tape!

Also, I tend to use a second cam on mosy of my shoots.....I have access to a Sony and a JVC miniDV camcorder, that I can borrow. This way, I have some backup. The quality is not even close, so I just make it black and white, solarize it, and throw some dust and noise in for good measure. This gives the footage an "indie" look that a lot of my musical acts enjoy! And, I haven't lost any of their performance!

No anology intended, just putting forward a question. There is so much paranoia regarding equipment these days. Is tape safe? is solid state safe? etc, etc. If we all worried about every little thing that could go wrong with our equipment, we would never work. We must trust the available technology.

I have to agree with Colin. You got to trust your equipment.

Yes, a tape most likely does start to loose its original design integrity (as measured in a laboratory setting) after one use but it doesn't mean it will self destruct on the second or third time now does it.

Let's face it, we live in a ligatious society, if tape medium was so fragile don't you think by now there would be warning stickers on every cellophane wrapper, on every tape, every package stating "WARNING - USE OF THIS TAPE MORE THAN ONE TIME MAY INCREASE THE CHANCE OF VISUAL DISCONTINUITIES"

Tape re-use is purely subjective as is brand preference. You can open a new one and have a problem as easily as a "field tested" one.

You admitted that you use the cheapest tape you can find (the same tape I use, by the way) but you're putting more trust in an *unknown* factor (will this cheap tape work the first time) instead of trusting in a *known* factor (this tape worked fine last time, it will work again.)

Look, it's really not that big a deal -- different people work different ways.

But you're completely wrong. Neither factor is unknown. The tapes are Sony Premiums which happen to be about as reliable as it gets -- they just happen to be the cheapest.

And the act of dragging tape over heads by definition degrades it. That's not unknown either. Just because it worked last time does not mean it will this time --- that's like saying you didn't get caught drunk driving last time so you won't this time.

But really, do what you're comfortable with. I just play the odds.

We can only rely on two things when we make decisions: our past experiences and our faith (or lack thereof) in a company to deliver what they promise. Sony promises to deliver a tape that works the first time, every time. However, my past experience tells me that this is not true (a Sony HD tape was filled with dropouts, and it was not my camera's fault, because every tape since then has been just fine.) However, my personal experience is that no tape, once proven reliable, has failed on a second or third use.

I disagree VEHEMENTLY. My old Sony PD150 heads would clog INSTANTLY after ANY non-Sony branded tape went into the camera ERGO I stopped accepting any tape that wasn't Sony branded.

Just because one has not encountered this phenomenon does not mean that it does not exist.

Hey Shaun,

Although I believe you, your story doesn't equate to controlled tests, or recommendations from manufacturers. That being said, I've heard enough reports such as yours to suspect that there's something to it, although I've mixed tapes in several cameras for years with no issues. For every post such as yours claiming problems, I've read others such as mine claiming none.

Well, just because you experienced a problem doesn't mean it's widespread, or applicable to everyone.

As well, the entire issue was attributed to the type of lubricants that manufacturers used on their tapes (wet vs. dry), and I've read many posts claiming that the difference no longer exists, and hence we shouldn't worry about changing tape brands anymore.

It seems you have to go with your gut. I find it unfortunate that tape manufacturers are unwilling to comment on the issue, other than the generic "we recommend our brand." Well, of course you do, you want to sell them...

Always love your posts, and hope you don't mind the mild disagreement.

Thanks Vito.

And you're right, just because I experienced a number of problems doesn't mean it's widespread BUT on a repository of knowledge like DVI, I'd like to acknowledge that the issue is reproducible by at least some THEREFORE it is not solely urban legend or hearsay.

My position is: if you DO mix tapes, you should be aware of the risks, much the same as using recycled tapes or even as another regular poster advocates "untested" first pass tapes.

So the short story is don't record anything important to tape, new or used, or on a DTE drive ever. <tongue planted firmly in cheek>

Hehehe...

Sounds like we're on the same page. Like you, I err on the side of caution because of reports I've read, anecdotal or not.

I have been using it's twin (VX2000) for years with Panasonic PQ tapes and have never experienced that problem. But I don't switch to anything else ever. It's not that the Sony tapes wouldn't work well if I had been using them all along just like you have, but the key as stated is not switching brands.

Now when I clean the tape heads, I don't use the Sony tape head cleaning cassette even though it is a Sony camera. I use a Panasonic tape head cleaning cassette because the tape is Panasonic. You should use the Sony cleaning cassette because you are using Sony tape.

John

I reuse tapes A LOT!! .... having said that and with a lot of experience on the topic I can say that "approximately" the tapes start presenting SIGNIFICANT errors around the 5th use. This is not a rule Im just taking an approximate estimate based on my experience reusing a lot of tapes... you might get lucky and a tape lasts 10 uses, or you might get a tape that gets bad on the second use, again, Im just taking a broad estimate based on what I've seen.

For those who say ...why dont you just buy new tapes... well how much do you pay for tapes 2-3 bucks (maybe even more if you dont buy them online) .... well how much money there is on 10 tapes... around 25-30 dollars? I dont know about you but it seems like a big waste of money to store 10 tapes that I will probably NEVER use again and pay 30 dollars worth of new tapes

Now multiply that for how many tapes you use in a year....100 - 150 maybe or more? imagine how much money you are wasting if you just store those tapes and never re-use them again and keep buying new ones

I dont know about you but if its not going to affect my work... and it really doesnt, I rather re-use those tapes and keep my money in my pocket.

It makes sense to me, but thats just my opinion!

Need a tape recommendation
 

Hey there,

I have a tape dilema.

I own a Canon XH-A1 and have used Panasonic AYDVM63PQ tapes in it almost exclusively. Literally hundreds of tapes..

I've used a few (maybe a few dozen) Panasonic AYDVM63AMQ on occasion.

I have had great luck with these tapes. Dropouts just don't happen.

B&H says these tapes are discontinued and I'm about to use up the last of my stock.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a similar quality tape?

B&H's website says this would be a similar item: Panasonic AY-DVM63PQUS

Thanks!

Charlie Durand

It's a little short-sighted to claim this. Yes, one tape "only" costs $5-10. But if you use a lot, as I do, your $1,000 bill can be cut by half or 2/3 if you re-use tapes in non-critical conditions. I don't think anone here would consider $600 to be a "false economy".

As far as drops go, the only ones I had were in NEW tapes, which I threw out. Never in a used tape.


J.

I reuse tapes all the time and rarely have I had a drop out. Actually the only drop out I ever had that was critical was on a new tape during the I do part of a wedding. I no longer shoot weddings and most of my critical stuff is shot in a studio. If I am shooting something that I am afraid will only happen in one take I shoot with two cameras and one of those cameras is also shooting to a laptop. It use to be that everyone said you should stripe a tape before use well a striped tape is a used tape. What happened to that school of thought.

The striping (or blacking) is something done when editing using VTRs, so that the machines have something to synchronise to, it isn't something done for camera tapes.