Basically your between the 170 and dvx. The 170 and 150 have been used extensively in Iraq. The 170 will give you more of a tv camera, news, real life look to the image, while the dvx will give you a smooth, filmic, lush color look.

So it depends on what kind of feel you want for the Doc.

That webcasting feature with the DV300U is really just an extra feature (need an optional adapter to use it - I wouldn't bother with it). The way they present the information on the camera, it's sort of a distraction. It is a very capable camera, right in there with cameras like the PDs and the DVX (with or without the webcasting stuff). I'd look for a DV300U with less than 150 hours on it. I got mine, basically in mint condition, with only 34 hours on it (and paid well under $1k).

It does't shoot 24p. It is also discontinued after a very short run. If he has trouble in Iraq, getting help with it is going to be a bear. Getting help with a PD170 or a DVX is going to be a phone call away.

Still it's either the 170, or JVC for their real, tv, news look, or the dvx for it's cinematic look.

I have removed the link to the scam site offering a DVX100 for $999 -- an obvious rip-off.

The JVC DV300 is a good choice but no longer supported and difficult to find.

My suggestion is to buy either a used, good condition Sony PD170 or Panasonic DVX100 and shoot DV tape.

Catalog each tape as you go to ease the process logging them later.

If you don't need High Definition, just buy a DVX100 or PD170 and be done with it.

Just say no to a Steadicam and a bunch of other gear. An onboard light, extra batteries, a wireless lav and a wireless handheld mic and a good gear bag are all you need.

Same here.

On the steadicam, they are really for special shots (like Rocky) and unless your using a jib and a dolly and shooting those renacment like the big hollywood types.

I agree with Chris about not taking a ton of big gear. You are going to want efficient, compact and lightweight gear. Don't forget lots of tape though!

Ok, Then it's settelled, Ill look for a used PD 170 or DVX100B with low hours. I have been keeping an eye on ebay but are there any other websites that offer quality used producted by trusted people? After doing my research here and through other quality info sites One thing is clear. What ever camera I decide to purchase I will need to get ALOT of tapes. So basiclly, I can get away with a Camera, Good Mic, Light, Tapes, extra batteries and a bag/case to hold it in. Whats a wireless LAV? As far as the steady cam goes I was thinking about getting that to use for walking around the base shooting footage. When I watch shows like dirty jobs, American Choppers etc. they walk with little to no bouncing and that was what I was going for. I was going to use the steadycam to be able to differ between the "Pro Video" to give it the Professional Film look and my Panasonic SDR to have that movement/amature look to make the Doc that much more realistic. I will also be adding videos from my Helmet Camera and Humvee Cameras. Any thoughts on this. If you think a steadycam is a waste of money right now then Ill just have to learn how to be "steady" on my own but I just figured it would be someting simply to use for my purposes.

As far as the HD goes, I was only considering it because I have heard that next year will "Be the Year" to go HD. But I guess in my case and with my budget I can do Just as good with one of the cameras above, am I right? Is HD really that big of a deal for my project?

"I think" As far as the Film quality vs. the News/TV Quality does that matter when it comes to projects like this? Can this all be fixed in Post??

ChrisPanasonic AG DVC60

(PS) What about the JVC GR HD1, it's and HD Used for $999.00 or the Panasonic AG DVC60's I know its a "shoulder mounted" but it also has an LCD Screen and it has "Night Vision" shooting capibilities. $1600.00 used. good, bad?!?!? Thoughts?

ANY HD/HDV camera is going to require more light than a similar SD cameral. So shooting with something like a DVX or PD170 will buy you a better image to tape simply because they gather more light.

This idea of "film look" happening in post, and "fixing things in post" is a misnomer. You can do certain things in post, but to get a film "look" you have to shoot like film. You have to move the camera like film crews do, and you have to light like film crews do. And you also have to mic like film crews do. Unless you're planning on marketing this video to HBO Films or something, I suggest you drop the whole "film like" or "professional quality" stuff, and just shoot the best way you can, and learn as you go. I guarantee you'll be a lot better at this 6 months into it than you were when you started. Nature of the beast.

Forget the HD cameras. Get a good camera and learn to shoot. You'll be far better off for it. The steadicam idea is nice, but it can take months to learn to use it well. Work on your camera skills before venturing out into that arena. If you need one, buy it later.

I see used DVX's on dvxuser.com from time to time. Usually every few weeks. Join there and shop. I imagine there are similar places for the PD150/PD170.

A wireless lav is a tiny microphone attached to a small wireless transmitter.

Dirty Jobs and American Chopper don't have steadicams, Just good camera opperators.

Once you get your camera, carry it around with you all the time. Practice. Practice. Bug your wife, film your kids, look at your dog. Just piont the camera at stuff and concentrait on keeping it steady.

That panasonic shoulder cam is junk, Just a camcorder in a plastic shell.

I say, save on the steadicam, get a wide angle( makes shots steadier) and look for a cheap sony handy cam for nightvision. Heck even stick an infa-red spot light to it so you can see better in the dark.

Yes. You're looking at it right now. I've bumped your account up to grant you access to our private classifieds forum.

There is a lot of different slick equipment out there that, in highly skilled hands, can be used to improve video productions considerably, and in many regards (image stability, sound quality, lighting, etc.).

What is important to realize here (at least in my opinion), is that the Army isn't exactly going to go along with you touring Afghanistan like a fully equipped one man video production company.

It would seem wise to put your focus on gear that is compact and lightweight, and efficient for the capabilities you really need.

Camera, microphone, batteries, tapes ...maybe a monopod or perhaps something like a DVMultiRig (light and folds up small).

Just like anything else its takes practice, Damn it. Well I do have time for that. Ok, Ill go with the basics and keep it simple. Your right about touring afghanistan my only saving grace is that my command approved my request to film this doc and granted me full access to fim including our vehicles, patrols etc. I did try to get them to purchase the equipment however I wouldnt see it untill October or something and by then it would be too late. Is it easier to maintain a steady camera that is small like my SDR or larger like the DVX100B? Are thoes "shoulder" mounts any good for my application? I have a both a mono and tri pod. Though they are for still cameras I imagine they would work with DVX. I just need additional Mics and tape. Both the Sony and DVX allow to add lenses right?

I have a few other specific questions regarding sound, lighting, writing and storylines but I think I have to find thoes topics for thoes questions.

Just for giggles, What's the big difference between the PD170 and the DVX100B? Is it the name?

There is a Person selling in the "Community Classifide" section selling Redheads, Junior Fresnels and Fluorescent lights. Maybe you guys can also give a little advice on if any of these packages if they would suite my needs? It "Looks" like a good price within my budget.

Chris

All you need for what you're doing and where you're going, is a small on-camera light and a collapsible reflector. God provides the key light (the Sun). Learn how to work with *that* light, the reflector is your fill light. You don't need all that other lighting gear. Travel light -- that is, lightweight -- and travel fast.

The two biggest differences I can think of, between the PD170 and DVX100B, is that the PD performs better in dim lighting (not that the DVX is a bad low light camera), and the DVX can shoot 24p (the PD can't). I'd suggest shooting 60i, which either camera can do well. If some of your footage ever winds up being broadcast, it would probably be on a cable channel, broadcast in 60i.

Personally, I disagree with the others that the GY-DV300U would be a poor choice, simply because it has been discontinued, and that camera is also right in the same class, for performance (you could sure put DV300 footage on cable television). DV300Us are indeed harder to find, but when you do find them, prices tend to be a lot lower than the other comparable cameras. Between the PD170 and the DVX100B, used PD170s tend to sell for a little less than used DVX100Bs (at least lately, it seems).

Shoulder mounted cameras can be a little more stable to shoot with, but I wouldn't really consider the low cost shoulder mounts (like DVC60) to be a good alternative to a PD170 or DVX100B (or DV300U). The DVC60 isn't a bad camera, but it is basically a step down from the others, and bulkier to tow around. Go with one of the good performance three 1/3" CCD handhelds. It is easier to hold a PD170 (or similar camera) steady, than a tiny consumer camera like that SDR (too small to even really get two hands on it).

The classifieds here are a good resource to find used equipment, and B&H Photo (sponsor here) also sells used and demo equipment. B&H is a very reliable, trustworthy dealer.

Can I use that same reflector for interviews inside? Its FL lighting, not incedesent. I think I spelled that wrong... What does a Matt box do on cameras?!?!

Hi Christopher,

The reflector reflects light. So whatever light is available will be reflected. You can use the reflector with sun light, incandescent and FL. Reflectors have different surfaces, some are just plain white, some silver and some gold all give you a different type of reflected light. If I were you I would use white and for that matter a white cardboard card would work. Your going to have to experiment with all of this and decide what you like. Also just a little bit of advise please don't use zooms or lots of movement when you shoot. I know a lot of your shots will probably be run and gun but whenever you can use a monopod, tripod or hold the camera as still as possible.

My 2 cents,

John

About Video vs Film Look

A lot of folks try to imitate film with video cameras. For your purposes, I don't see any compelling reason to do that. To me, shooting documentary footage is about capturing reality. Video cameras can be great for getting a "real" look. Shooting 60i gives you temporal resolution that captures the fluid motion of real life far better than 24p. I suggest you forget any thoughts of trying to imitate film, use the video camera to it's fullest advantage for what it truly is, and shoot the best 60i footage you can. Video cameras can do some things that film cameras simply cannot. Use that to your full advantage. Learn to use things like black stretch to capture real life detail in shadows (opposite of film, where blacks get crushed).

The bigger the camera the steadier you can hold it, but the faster your arms get tired.

I love Matte Box's, but your really not goning to need one. If your gona use a matte box you camera should at least cost 10 grand and have 2/3 inch chips.

Basically they help stop lens flare and allow you to put some filters in front of the lens. They also make your camera look really really cool. I mean seriously when you see matte box you know he means buisness. :)

Actually, if I were shooting outdoors in the desert or other areas with a lot of direct sunlight and I couldn't control the direction of my shooting, I'd be thinking VERY hard about a Mattebox. Not only will the "French Flag" portion keep lens flare at a minimum, the ability to drop on a neutral density filter or a poloarizer, or a grad filter would be SUPER helpful.
But it's yet one more thing that doesn't work in a run-and-gun environment.

-P

A few 58mm (for PD170 - different sizes for the other cameras mentioned) filters (circular polarizer and a few NDs - as well as a couple protective UV filters) would be suitable for this purpose.

Camera Suggestion
 

First, thanks for your service. Living in NC I know a lot of military families, and the sacrifices they make are something that we all should appreciate every day.

About the camera, I agree that light and easy to use will be the way to go. I shoot some documentary work, and I've found the Panasonic 3CCD handheld cameras to be very easy to use, inexpensive to equip with filters (polarizer, some others) and mics (Rode Videomic).

I use the GS-150, GS-180 and GS-500. Each of these have mic in options, and headphone out. I use a Beachtek adaptor to better control gain, and a headphone to monitor the sound. I think the biggest challenge for you will be sound. It gets loud where you are and without a good sound pickup it can easily become overloaded or highly distorted. Using a smaller camera may make it easier to control the sound to avoid problems.

The Panasonic GS-150, with Beachtek adaptor, polarizing filter and headphones can fit anywhere and more important can allow you to capture footage that you can't easily get from other cameras - like the PD-170 or DVX100B which are heavier and less flexible in fitting inside a Humvee or foxhole. I didn't realize myself how useful a small footprint camera is until I started filming the documentary footage - many of the shots couldn't easily be taken with the larger cameras.

One final advantage of the smaller Panasonic cameras is that anyone can shoot if you leave it in full auto. You may have some washout, but you will capture the footage. Imagine if you are in a very active encounter and you wished someone else could film with you -- with a small camcorder they can. You can even buy several smaller 3CCD camcorders for the price of a PD-170 or DVX100B.

Anyway, just my opinion. I'm sure you'll make the right choices, and keep in touch.

I would think a PDX10 would make a better choice than any of those cameras combined with a beachtek (especially the 1/6" chippers). Any palmcorder though, is going to suffer significantly weaker performance than one of the three 1/3" chippers, in anything but ideal lighting. I could see getting a palmcorder as a small backup camera, but I wouldn't spend much for it - perhaps a TRV70 for under $300 (used).

But if your gone get a second cam make sure it has night shot.
By the way the camera sees by picking up infra red light (invisible to the human eye) from the infa red flash light on the front. Would it be a problem shinning an infa red light on the troops.

Andrew, Our Night Vision Optics, Weapons systems and our new vehicles MRAP all use IR lighting so thats not a problme. As long as I can turn it on and off im good. The reason for the PD170 and DVX100B or because of the headphone input and lighting and Mic capibilities. In addition to the 24p and 60i features I have read do onders for film. Run & Gun stuff will be done with my palm cam or ill just purchase another one. The big boy camera will be used on this bae for interviews, behind the scenes or anything not combat related. I dont think I will be carring the big cameras outside the wire.

OKay. Then look for a good sony SD handycam with nightshot.
Are you sure you would never take the big boy outside though. I could image a good day light shot were you are following a marine and he awnsering your questions.

Ok, Then in addition to a "Big Boy Camera" Ill get a good sony handycam with night shot, any suggestions??? The big boy camera would go outside, BUT not outside the wire. Not on patrol because if it gets broken then im SOL. It would be easier to replace a handycam then it would a Handycam. I might just get two (2) handycams and keep one as a back up. Will sony software download to Microsoft media Player? Is sony software really user friendly? Thats what im using right now on my computer.

Chris

I'd suggest keeping your eyes open for a used TRV70 or TRV80. Those cameras are capable of shooting an excellent quality image in ideal lighting, and they seem to be going for pretty low prices nowadays (used).

Edit: Those cameras (TRV70 and TRV80) also have the night shot (but I've never used it).

Ok, Ill look into thoes two camera. What about If I get a used JVC GR-HD1 at a good price? Would that be a good "B" and second shot camera to take out on patrol? Thoughts, Ideas Opinions? How would shooting one in HD and the oter in SD work in post? is that something that would screw up the film and editing?!?! Or would that just be defeating the purpose by getting one HD camera whe nthe rest as alll SD.


Chris

I have an HD10U. It can shoot a nice image in SD (in real good light), but it's quite a bit bigger than a little palmcorder. I haven't really tried my HV20 in DV mode, but that might actually make a decent little backup camera.

Well I was looking at the HV20 and 30 models before but am I going in 2 different directions if I am shooting in both HD and SD? Does Canon have Night Shots mode?

Chris

Alot of cameras don't have night shot. Sonys are the ones that useally have it. If you the DP-170 I would definatly get a trv camera. The reson is

Fisrt cameras from the same companey (sony) are going to look more like each other.

second the trv is often used as a B camera for the 170.

third it's not HD so it will have better low light performance.

Fourth it's not HD so it will go great with your other SD cam.

Fith the only reason I didn't think of it was because I didn't know it had night shot.

And even if you go with the DVX 100 it is still a good choice.

Oh uh woops sorry there I was thinking about the TRV 950, but they are really expensive. The trv 80 may not be good enough for you. May a newer sony handy will do the trick.

This is the end of the road for me as I don't know anything about consumer comeras.

Only pro stuff for me.

Hi Chris -
Been following the thread for a while, hope maybe if you're considering "small" cameras I can be of some help.

First you're going to need a camera built like a tank, literally - I'd look at Sony cams in that respect.

Second, the newer HD cams are incredible in good light, and really not that bad in low light, a simple on camera light/diffuser will do the trick in many cases, if you choose your setting carefuly and have the add on light as a "fill".

I'm gussing that you might be facing "run and GUN", so having a small cam would be a plus, especially in the field.

Your original budget was around 2K, this could put you in good running order with two small Sony cams and enough accessories to cover most situations.

Take a look at the HC9, in black - the HC7 was it's predecessor, and is pretty good too, but I'm thinking a black cam might make you less the target, and the HC7 is probably going to be hard to find now. Similar in design and execution to the HV20/30, more solid build, usable manual control, good auto, tape/HDV that any editing package should be able to handle relatively smoothly. Can be had in the $800 range. Has nightshot, if nothing else makes an excellent "B" cam.

IF you have a computer with some horsepower available (AVCHD format takes a bit to work with, and is where you MAY need proprietary Sony software, PC only, though some Mac users are making it work), then the CX7 and SR11/12 might be worth a look.

CX7 is super small, I hang mine off a lanyard from the "D" ring on the strap, or stick it in a large pocket when not filming. Uses Memory Stick Duo which can be expensive to get the real deal (watch out for Chinese knockoffs!!!), but the camera is pretty close to invincible - good for "extreme" situations. Nightshot again included (sounds like you've got the best IR illumination one could ask for available). Limited manual control, but auto seems to do a pretty good job all the times I've used it. Again, around $800.

SR11/12 are HDD based, so there's the question of durability - great cams, but I'm a bit hesitant to recommend because I'm not sure how the spinning HD will be in extreme conditions.

Perhaps a HC9/CX7 pair would be a good set, all the accessories are interchangeable, lenses, filters, batteries, chargers and any accessories that fit the Sony AiShoe would work on both cameras.

I'd add a decent tripod, maybe a basic monopod, a couple clamp or mini tripods, a couple brackets to create a mini-fig rig type stabilizing device (HD needs to be held steady), a WA lens, clear protective filter for the front end, with an extra lens cap, a couple FH70 high cap batteries (FH100 is bulky , but would last all day). Mic wise, add a small digital recorder or maybe the Sony bluetooth mic for a "wireless" audio with better than on cam quality. Sound won't be great at this price point, but won't be terrible either. Have a set of headphones to monitor sound - open air type preferred so you can hear what's going on around you too. Sony doesn't make a light that uses the FH series batteries unfortunately, but you could get one that uses the larger batteries, either NP-F or FM series. HVL-20DW2 uses the bigger batteries or HVL-20DMA uses the smaller ones - add a StoFen diffuser and you've got usable portable light. One other possible add on would be the Sony Sport Pack, which encloses the shell for shallow water use, and is also not a bad idea for blowing sand...

This more or less describes my set up, it's compact, relatively inexpensive (accessories can add up, I've collected mine on the cheap secondhand), and with a little experience you can shoot "professional" grade footage - I've seen quite a few others using similar "small" rigs, to good results. The quality of the small cameras combined with the price point opens up a LOT of possibilities to the person who wants to shoot serious video on a budget - you'll get 90+% of the quality of current "big" cameras in most cases.

I'd also note that the small cams are getting used in "pro" situations for many of the "reality" type TV shows - they're "expendable" cams, but do the job OK!

Hope that is helpful from a "small cam shooter" perspective.

Check out aliveinbagdad.com could get some ideas.

Some consumer HD cameras can shoot stunning footage in ideal lighting, no doubt. To get a reasonably broadcastable image in low practical light environments, would take some serious additional lighting (more than just a small, inexpensive on-board light). It doesn't seem very realistic to me to be hauling the lighting equipment that would be needed around Afghanistan (along with soldiering gear), nor would it seem very suitable for run-and-gun shooting.

I've been working on finding the best way to set my HV20 for shooting indoors, mostly with filming my grandchildren around the house in mind. I'm doing most of my experimenting in my "office", which was built to be a pretty ordinary size bedroom (about 11'x12' or so), illuminated by two 100 watt equivalent bulbs (daylight flo twists - ceiling and one wall are painted white, the other three walls being paneling) in an overhead fixture (all in all, the room is pretty well lit for indoor home lighting here in the states). The best image I've obtained so far is certainly reasonable for personal use, but sure wouldn't cut the mustard for broadcast. There is simply to much noise in the image (with noticeable loss of detail as well) for that (even at 1/24 shutter). In this same lighting, my GY-DV300U does well (at 1/60 shutter).

Aside from really struggling in low light, even the best consumer cameras don't offer anything like the manual control of a pro camera (forget image tweaking, even if they do offer somewhat decent basic manual control of iris, shutter, gain and focus, which most don't).

I was presuming based upon earlier posts that:

A) shooting on base and daylight, adequate light would be available, or it would be possible to improvise a "practical" light kit - "field solutions" are pretty common, I'd think something might come together.

B) any low light/night shots would be "nightshot" territory, and it sounded like the head and tank mounted IR illuminators would be preferable to anything else available. NO cam I'm aware of has nightshot and good manual control, save perhaps the HC1/A1U...

As far as "broadcast quality", I've seen a fair amount of nightshot being used on TV...

While not ideal, for close in work, the 20W light with diffusion can help a lot to give a more usable image.

I'm considering what can be done within the 2K budget originally contemplated, and yes, manual controls may of necessity be expendable - and the "auto" functions on some of these new cams do a pretty decent job, and I'd not want to be trying to figure out manual functions "under fire"...

Dave, Some good information you provided for me. I was (For a short time) considering a "Small" camera for these purposes and still am for a "B" camera. However my decision to use a "larger type" camera for somethings is based upon where and what I would be using it for. Iwill look into the small handycam's for "Outside the Wire" type shooting. But for stuff here on the base I figured on the DVX or PD170 because I will (In mast cases) have control of the lighting or set up. Mostly this camera will be used for interviews, general footage on he base etc. My current cache of equipment is:

Panasonic SDR-H200
Kodak Easyshare C763 (Still Photos)
Nikon D2xs with a 80-400m zoon (Still Photos)
A Chineese knock off small handycam I got for $100.00 (Video)
ATC Helmet mounted camera (30FPS with 2GB SD Care)

For that little amout of stuff its pretty good but I want better. I feel that the DVX since it has the 24p capibilities would work so you are able to differ between "Amature" vs. "Professional" type stuff to give it that "real documentary look". I decided to just kick HD out of the process due to the Price and the fact that I need more lighting.

s far as the night shots go, your right. IR lighting is no problem, in fact it may be better then then I think. I like the night shots, it give it that "real military feel". But dave, Ill look into thoes other cameras you mentioned. I am actually putting together a "Sponser a Soldier" letter to send out to some vendors to see if I can get a loaner or one at a really good price. Ie thats the case then I can get more things to make this prodution work.

Chris