Norm,
So you're saying that all the Sony, Sharp, JVC, and Panasonic cams with EIS have their bottom limit at 1/100th? Now, off hand, I'm not sure which of those cameras in Robin's tests have EIS, but from what I gather from you're saying is that, all the ones that do have the EIS could be compared -- maybe not so much
as absolute low light reach -- but seeing as they all had the same "handicap", they should still be comparable fairly *between themselves* as to brightness (i.e. measured luminance) of image and tendency to form grain?
Regarding the complaints from Robin's viewers that they were unable to bring up any low-light test images on their monitors -- you know they said "everything was just black boxes" -- were you able to see them okay?
I am glad that you brought up the shutter issue before I passed along my "findings" only later to wind up with egg on my face due to the original test setup being grossly unfair.

In comparison, if Robin tested cars for fuel economy, would she omit to use the overdrive gear in the transmission of those equipped with it and only compare their performance in 4th gear?... Well it does make a difference! I want to know what it can do at its best.

Every camcorder has its limitations, and if you take the time to learn how to overcome them, then you can achieve better pictures than the default settings will allow.

As for the low-light test images on CamcorderInfo's site, my computer shows me some very dark pictures from which I can faintly distinguish the test pattern. Even the darkest ones reveal something: none is totally black.

Norm, I appreciate your input on this whole matter, as I've said.
You may or may not know that I've done what I could to ascertain the particulars of the individual cameras' programmed reactions to the situations they were placed in. Despite my throwing it out there for input from actual owners, I haven't had much success as far as concrete helpful feedback. My next step is to go audition the ostensible "winner" myself, and if I find out that this "Cam X" was actually running at 1/100th second, I'm gonna call a spade a spade and go forth with what I've found. I figure if no cam was shooting at faster than 1/100th -- and I doubt any were -- and this cam more-or-less ran the table: no sense in not declaring it. Like I said, this is all predicated on what I find to be the "winners' " actual response to 15 lux. (I hope that the cams in this range are able to report their shutter speeds; I would think so, but I won't know for sure till I try.)

French trick
 

"Then, on a french Web site, I found a procedure to trick the shutter speed down to a normal 1/60 with SteadyShot On, and I now manage to get VERY good indoor shots without disabling the EIS. "

Norm,

I'd be interested in knowing what this trick is.

Thanks in advance.

Joe Kras
St. Louis, MO USA

Hi again.
I just heard from a helpful guy on another thread that his
not-expensive 1CCD cam has video gain that goes up to +18dB.
Just wondering. Do all or most of these "low end" cams have gain available to use when the lighting gets low? I had thought this was something found mostly on the higher end.

Having just bought an Optura Xi for just over the $1000 mark I feel this counts. It seems like I'm cheating to suggest this as its such a great camera. A quantum step up from my ZR10 - which I loved.

The Optura Xi may just be my next cam, unless Pana USA brings in the NV-GS100 at a fair price. But by that time, the Xi will probably have even a cheaper street price. :)

PS: a quick and dirty way of testing a cam's low light is to go into manual mode, but use all the auto features except fixing the shutter at 1/60. Use the same light; same TV for playback. The easiest way to do this is bring along a miniDV tape. Then play the tape back with your cam and your TV at your leisure. Just don't forget to talk into the recordings of which cam is being tested. Like I said, it's quick and dirty, but it should give you a good idea about the video quality in lower light. :)

To Joe Kras and all others:
(Adapted from a french website: http://www.digital8.fr.st/)

Do you want best of both worlds?

SteadyShot electronic stabilizer ON and 1/50 shutter speed (1/60 NTSC)?

Try this:

1. Make sure SteadyShot is ON and Aperture is in Auto mode.
2. Turn Camera OFF.
3. Put lens cover over the lens.
4. Turn camera back ON with the lens cover on. This forces the shutter down to 1/50 PAL (1/60 NTSC).
5. Switch to manual aperture and dial the iris control down 4 to 5 steps from max to reduce gain. Leave iris control on MANUAL.
6. Remove lens cover, adjust aperture and focus properly.

Voilà!

You should be at 1/50 shutter speed (1/60 NTSC) WITH SteadyShot ON.
Ideal for long shots from the back of a church for example, even on a tripod.

Note: If you switch the cam OFF or go back to Auto-Iris, you must go all over that procedure again, as it will resume to its default setting (1/100 NTSC) with SteadyShot ON.

Dave,
As far as I know, most consumer camcorders combine the gain control with the iris control. That is, the iris will open step by step from f22 or f16 (closed) to f1.6 or f1.7, then electronic GAIN will be applied by 3dB increments up to +18dB. So the "wide open" position (f1.6) is not the max position of the aperture dial. It's the 6th or 7th notch down from max.

Don't be shy about them Xi s, guys! What do you think? Speech! Speech!

Norm,

Thanks for taking the time to translate and post that.

I'll try it!

Joe K.

Just thought I'd let you know that I just picked up a Panasonic
DV53 and posted my initial impressions over at the Panasonic DV board in a thread entitled "My First Weddings with GS100". The DV53 is one of the least expensive miniDV cams available.