What's the short list of great tiny camcorders?
 

What is/are the current champion(s) for small cameras that I can tuck in a pocket and take great footage without obsessing over perfect focus? Thing I'd like:

- Really want great image in good light, good image in dim light.
- I care more about image not Solid state or tape. Best image wins.
- Small is nice, but if equal or smaller to HC3. Best image wins.
- Would love a real focus ring. Mechanical would be wonderful vs servo.
- selectable fps would be great. Need 30P, would like 24P also. 60P would be icing.
- LANC controller, if possible
- Mic input necessary
- Good zoom control. At least 5 steps, more better.
- Good lens and good auto focus

I currently shoot with a Canon 7D, have access to numerous XHA1's, and also have a Sony HC3 and access to HC7. The HC3 has been great, but is starting to suffer from several ailments and the image is somewhat noisy by today's standard in any light, especially low light. Dislike the focus "roller", but like "spot focus" feature.

latest releases -
HF-S21 (Canon)
CX550V (Sony)

Those are the two I'd start with, slightly different feature sets, but are going to be mighty close competitors from the looks of it, probably going to be comparable - some people feel Canon is better in good light, Sony will generally outperform in low light, but Canon is supposed to be improving this on the new models...

Both have built in flash, and card capability.
I believe the Sony is slightly smaller, but both are going to be "pocketable" with big pockets - within the range of the HC3 definitely.
Both have small control button/knob arrangements, which can be set to focus. Adequate, but no ring... I think Canon added some form of touch screen face tracking which would mimic Sony's touch focus to this model. Both have big LCD's - 3.5"
Canon will have selectable frame rates, Sony won't.
LANC options available for both - Sony through A/V jack, Canon through intelligent shoe adapter
Both have mic/headphone jacks
Not sure on zoom control...
Lenses should both be good, Sony has gone to a "wider wide" angle in the CX550V and the XR550V. Canon will have the edge in AF as it has the active focus system, Sony should be adequate, if a bit slower.

The HC3 is quite long in the tooth, had a relatively poor rez sensor, and was about awful in low light. Great little package though. You'll find the new control knob more useful than that roller thingy.

Those two will be the "top of the line" this year in the pocket rocket competition, but a lot of good cameras are carrying over (or maybe will be phased out) as well, so depends on your budget and your acquisition timeframe.

Thanks Dave, thanks for the shortcut. I'll be looking at both of these. The HC3 was a breakthrough camera 3 years ago, but things have definitely improved in the market and I'd like to get an "easy" camera for informal family stuff. Is it fair to say these would outperform a Canon HV30/40 in image quality?

If you have to have 30p, the Canons are really the only game in town, and the HF-S series can record astonishing detail (with great low-light performance for a fist-size cam).

For 60i and 24p on the cheap (without using an external mic), the Panny HM250 sure looks to me like a good value at the price (and no need for SDHC cards, with the built in 120GB hard drive, so it's basically spend $600, open the box, and start shooting). It's essentially a (considerably) crippled HMC40 (also capable of recording stunning detail, with excellent low light performance for a consumer cam). I doubt the HM/TM300 are really worth the money, compared to the bang-for-the-buck you can get from the Canon HF-S cams. For that matter, the HMC40 doesn't cost a whale of a lot more than an HM/TM300, when you take the free Edius Neo 2 and Blu-Ray player into account, and the HMC40 is just a whale of a lot more camera (although not a fist size cam).

The Sonys are 60i only, but capable of doing it very well.

Roger -
I'd say it's reasonably safe that the 3 years or so between the HV series and the new HF-S line (intro'd last year) will be noticeable. Generally speaking each new camera brings a few improvements and tweaks (and new improved sensor blocks), and the XR500 upon which the XR550V is based has pretty good image quality, particularly in low light conditions - it's hard to beat, where other cameras will exhibit noise or muddiness, it will be pretty smooth. You can read up on the current Sonys in the AVCHD format part of DVi - the Sony's don't have their own threads, but there are some there!

Just be aware that AVCHD (tapeless) takes some decent computer horsepower to edit, where HDV (tape) is a bit easier. IMO the improvement in image quality, especially in lousy light is well worth it - bad light describes MOST of the conditions I seem to shoot in!

You may want to wait for early reviews of the new models I mentioned, as both cameras have some significant changes/improvements in their press releases/spec sheets. I was ready to give the HF-S21 a serious look-see, and still probably will, but right now the CX550V looks like the direction I'll go. Always liked the CX series for compact size/light weight, but really wanted some of the SR/XR features (VF, big LCD, mic/headphone jacks), without the hard drive... pretty much describes the CX550V.


I'm a little skittish of the small Panasonics, the specs look really great, but the video samples I've seen just didn't hold up, and reviews have been pretty mixed. Don't get me wrong, I had an older Panasonic, and it's one of the nicest small cams I've owned ergonomically - image quality was very good for it's day, but IMO Sony and Canon set the standard right now.

Now if you could put the Sony or Canon guts in a Panasonic user interface package....

I've never tried Panasonic, but have had good results with Canon and Sony. I'm surprised that no one makes a small camcorder with a true focus ring and and manual controls. I think I'd have a blast with such a device and would use it for a lot of informal video.

There just isn't a lot of demand for good manual controls on consumer camcorders. The vast majority of people buying these camcorders simply lack the knowledge to utilize them. To most, aperture sounds like some sort of odd primate and if they need to focus, they grab a cup of coffee. Pretty much, they just want a box they can point and get a recognizable picture out of, to look at later.

Robert, your post made my day. ....grab a cup of coffee.... LOL

I use the HF-S100, HF-S11 and the CX-520v all the time. Most of the pros and cons have already been discussed, but the Sony stabilization on the CX-520v and to a slightly lesser extent the XR-520v are simply amazing. I haven't been able to find much information about this, but several forum posts around the web (nothing official that I have found) indicate that the CX-550v and the XR-550v will essentially inherit the stabilization from the CX-520v.

If your are going to be using the camera handheld at all, it's hard not to get the Sony.

Dan, do you find the 60i much of a detractor on this cam? Lots of ink spent on questioning why Sony hasn't gone to progressive yet and the Canon offers 30P and 24P. I've used 60i previously on my XHA1 and got pretty good renders to 30P, but not quite as good as starting with 30 to start with.

Your thoughts?

It's a question of priority. I'll take a steady picture that isn't quite as good over the shaky footage. That being said, if there is ever a tripod around - I always use the Canon.

On a side note, I've had much better luck with the built in audio on the Sony and always run the Canon with a JuicedLink.

I think Sony like me like smooth motion so until we get 60p I will stay with 60i. I find the slower frame rates really disturbing.

Ron Evans

OK guys, is the Sony a HDV camera then, since it shoots 60i or is it something else new/better? Is it essentially HDV type footage now encoded in H.264.... or is it .m2t? I'm sure I just violated several sacred concepts in this question! : )

All the cams mentioned record AVCHD (to SDHC cards or internal flash memory or hard drive), which is definitely not HDV. The Sonys and Pannys record AVCHD at a max bitrate of 17Mbps and the Canons go up to 24Mbps, all yielding better (image) quality compression than HDV.

Great. I guess that means it's both data and a better compression, which should be significant. I saw on one review that Sony was 24Mbps also. Something about a back-lit sensor to yield better low light. Don't know if that's real or just marketing jargon. Here's the quote from Amazon: Up to 24Mbps AVCHD video
The HDR-CX550V can capture video at up to 24Mbps for amazing clarity and detail, ideal for recording on to Blu-ray Disc media since the AVCHD codec is highly compatible with the Blu-ray Disc format.

All are AVCHD format, the new Sonys, "550" in XR and CX flavors have up to 24 MBps, up from IIRC 16 Mbps max on earlier cams - one of the reasons I recommended the latest models. So there won't be any "bitrate gap" at the top of the lines this year.

Older Sonys use memory stick duo as well as internal memory or HDD, the latest ones are supposed to be able to use SDHC, but that's a new feature, so can't say for sure how that will work, my bet is with adapter cards for the micro-SDHC format, as those are available currently.

The "R" sensor is a legit deal - it first appeared in the XR500V, and it is a huge improvement in low light performance and image quality in bad light over earlier generation CMOS sensors. The late cycle 2009 release CX500V's show some tweaks to low light performance - brighter colors and can reach even deeper into low light, but I see gain noise that I'm not thrilled with when at the maximum end of the range - a little tweaking to the exposure seems to solve it, and I can only suspect they decided to get "some" image with noise over no image when it gets super dark...

Canon is claiming improvements in low light performance in the new HF-S21, what improvements will have to wait for the camera to be available. Both the new Sony and Canon cameras appear to "re-use" last years sensor blocks, but tweaks to processing and firmware may improve the image quality.

You may want to wait for the "new toys" to actually hit the street before you decide, as the top of the line offerings are too close to call on specs (although the new wide end lens range in the Sonys may be a factor depending on your shooting situations). Bitrate should be comparable now, memory options should be comparable in cost, I'd expect OIS and low light performance to still go to Sony, but AF to go to Canon given historical precedent. Both offer touchscreen features, compact packages, viewfinder AND 3.5" LCDs. I doubt either would provide a "bad" image quality, although you might prefer one over the other on some minor points under some conditions.

I'd probably lean towards the Sony, especially since they finally put 24Mbps and manual control back in the mix, but if I already had Canon accessories, or had to buy accessories from scratch, it'd be a dead heat based on what I know of the two options (and until you can put hands on the actual cameras, there's an amount of "unknown"...).

I'm a little torn here. I have Sony accessories already for my HC3, bluetooth "Smartshoe" mic - which actually is pretty good for informal stuff; Smartshoe 3W light; and batteries that probably don't translate. I also have A Sony tripod with LANC, but it should work with anything that has LANC.

I don't have much experience with Canon consumer equipment, but I know the HV30 had a good image, although cheap construction. My HC3 and HC7 had good images for their time and the build quality is quite good. 60i vs 24/30P is really an issue here since I would want to be able to cut with 7D footage. I'd like to test output and convert the 60i to 30p to see how it looks for internet and how the 60i compares to 30p in its own.

Also, any idea of the editing strain of 60i AVCHD vs 30P?

Shouldn't be any difference at all. It's exactly the same number of pixels for any given time frame.

The bluetooth mic will work, as will the 3W light (though you won't need it nearly as much, but it can provide "fill" - it will make for a "hotspot" with the wider lens angle in the new cams - it was already noticeable in the field of view in earlier cams.

FP series (HC3) batteries definitely won't work, I'm not even sure FH series (HC7) I have will work on the new cams, as they are specifying a new "FV" battery... and Sony typically blocks old batteries from newest consumer cams, right about the time you get a good collection of batteries for your kit!

The LANC is a slightly different matter - after the HC series, Sony eliminated the traditional 2.5mm LANC jack, and the interface is now "hidden" on the A/V jack (and I suspect also in the AiShoe, which the Canon uses for its LANC adapter). So, you'd either need an adapter or convert your tripod plug over - or get a new LANC control with the A/V plug.

I looked at the HF-S series last year, and the build quality looked a lot better than the HV's, which were pretty cheap (and made the audio unusable from chassis noise IMO). Still like Sony's build quality though (and audio options). Of course the newer cams will have better image quality all around - typically the technology imroves incrementally every year, sometimes more (like the EXMOR-R).

Depending on your NLE, you shouldn't have trouble inter-cutting footage because of frame rates, I'd be more concerned with color correction - Sony and Canon seem to have distinctly different ideas of how colors should be portrayed... but that can vary between cameras TOO! You may have to shoot identical scenes and see which match up the easiest.

AVCHD is a heavier processor load than HDV period (and I've seen indications that you have to have pretty fast/smooth data throughput between the HDD and the processor - new HDD's seem to handle AVCHD better), whatever the flavor, so you need to evaluate if your current machine is adequate. If not you can transcode (many do), or plan for a system upgrade to a nice spiffy quad core. A fast dual core was fine for HDV, AVCHD moves you into quad core territory (or "perhaps" a fast current dual core system).

It actually sounds like Canon has made some hardware changes too. Here's a link to a Google translation of a Japanese page:

Google Translate

An excerpt (note the apparent hardware changes under the "Condensing technology" section):

A small correction. It appears on the new Canons you don't need the AiShoe LANC Adapter.

Quoting from Canon about the HF-S200, which I have my eye on:

"A built-in remote control terminal (compatible with LANC protocol) provides an easy connection to both Canon and third party wired remote controllers"

Read the full page here:
Canon VIXIA HF S200 High Definition Flash Memory Camcorder

Just to make sure I'm not defaming the HC3, it was capable of pretty decent pictures in its time:

Dont know where you decided to go with this, but I did a lot of the same digging that it sounds like you are doing.
I even considered just sticking with the video that my DSLR can shoot (Canon 7D) and at the end of the day, I ended up going with a Sony XR500V.

Have shot a little bit with it and so far LOVE it.

The only thing that I noticed that seems to be a little quirky though is that it has a mode where you can shoot HQ HD and it will also enable the ability to take a photo at the same time, streaming the photo to a Pro-HG Duo card. Odd part is that I was just simply messing around to see what kind of photos it could shoot...
When I got back home and was reviewing the footage, one of the things that I noticed in the playback is that the video image seemed to kinda flicker at roughly the same time that the photo should have been completing its write to the card. (the photo writes seem slow).

The photos were pretty good.
http://www.willadrews.com/wp-content...nke_winter.jpg
Since I have the 7D and lots of Canon and Tamron glass for my DSLR, I wont be using this thing to shoot photos and was just messing around with that capability, but it was interesting to see the odd phenomenon.

I changed the video recording mode to a couple of other modes, and didnt notice the same issue.

Next thing I need to do is to get the Platinum Pro Pack upgrade version of Vegas Movie Studio, so I can do the AVCHD editing on my system. (wished I knew if Sony was going to introduce a new version in April at NAAB.)

Greg,

I'm using Vegas Pro 9 with my 7D and on my dual core AMD 6400+ things are pretty slow! HDV was fine, but AVCHD/H.264/.MOV all go really slow in 1920 x 1080. Sounds like you and I are in the same boat. 7D is great, but very unforgiving for capturing at life-speed.

Do you have any short full HD clips from your 500 uploaded to Vimeo that I can download to view without Vimeo compression?

Sorry Roger, no I dont.
I have only messed with some limited video from it (on a really nasty, gray overcast day).
Waiting for the sun to pop out, so I can shoot at least the kids messing around outside.

I guess thats the problem with all picture gear (moving and still). Seems like you get the new gear, then the weather doesnt cooperate much.

FWIW: I found my XR500V on sale at JR fpr 799 last month, so I snagged it, because it was the lowest I had seen it. I think its 899 there now.

As soon as I shoot something, i will load it up. Looks like the weather might cooperate this week.

Thanks for all the great information in the thread. I'm also looking at either the Sony HDR CX 550V or the Canon HF S21. I like Canon's different frame rates on the S21. The Canon is described as native 24P, so are the frame rates listed, 1920 x 1080 (24/30/60 fps) genuine or are they some how mathematicaly derived from the native 24P and have some inherent quality issues?

I'm looking for a little B-roll camera that can shoot quality 30P and 60I. The Canon S21 may be it. If not I think I'd go for the Sony CX 550V and get a solid 60I and give up the 30P. It also sounds like the Sony's wide angle may also be a plus over the Canon. Any thoughts?

Dan

I did quite a lot of research a little while ago on just this question of a good quality small camera. Decided on the HV40. From the research I concluded it had as good an image as others of that size (including newer, tapeless models form Canon and Sony). I wasn't bothered about tape and in fact prefer it to AVCHD which looked like a real pain to work with. Also most of the AVCHD cameras seemed to have no viewfinders which was a killer fro me. I also have an HC3 and the HV40 produces a noticeably much better picture - sharper and better, richer but more natural colours - in good light it virtually matches my A1, though in poor light it's another story, obviously. It also has a good range of manual controls though no focus ring. My only real criticism of the camera, which i love, is that it is a bit susceptible to over-exposure so I bought some filters which solved that.

Just to spin this top a little more, note that the Sony CX550v is out of production, replaced by the CX700 which adds: (a) 60p recording; (b) 96gB flash memory (up from 64gb); (c) zebra stripes for manual exposure control; (d) peaking and and viewscreen zoom for manual focus; (e) reduces viewscreen from 3.5" to 3" ; and (e) 24p for those who like it. The HD format is AVCHD. The HV40. like the HV30 and HV 20 before it, is a splendid little camera shooting HDV. (I've still got and still use my HV20). However, adding a tapeless recording unit (Firestore, Sony MRC or Datavideo) to an HV cam is great but bulky and kind of defeats the purpose of having a tiny camera.

AVCHD does indeed burden not-so-new computers, but it is easy enough to get around that problem by converting AVCHD to AVI or MOV using software like Cineform's NeoScene and using a 7200 rpm USB drive to deal with the much larger file sizes of the the converted files. Cost of these things totals about $200, which is much less than a system upgrade.

For me, the things that favored a CX550 and which I think now favor or CX700 for a tiny cam are: (1) the active steady shot OIS which greatly enhances hand held shooting; (2) very good ability in dim light (nearly as good as the old VX/PD cams and with less video noise than the larger FX1000/Z5/NX5/Z7 cams when you get in the bottom range; (3) a very wide angle lens at the wide end; and (d) splendid image quality.

Sony CX700, Panasonic TM900 or Canon (e.g. XA10)
 

Interesting thread. For completeness I'd add the Panasonic TM700 (or the new replacement TM900) to the list for consideration - and it's product variants without on-board flash memory etc. - as it has many of the advantages of the Sony CX550, now CX700, including 1080p50/60 plus a few besides (e.g. it's 3 chip, can zoom much further without image degradation etc.). However the 1080p25 is at only 17Mbps (I wish it was 24Mbps - but I suspect I'd always use it at it's 28Mbps 1080p50 anyway). Link to the Panasonic product page below:

HDC-HS900/HDC-TM900/HDC-SD900/HDC-SD800 | HD Camcorder | Panasonic Global

I have been very interested in the new crop of small Canon camcorders (especially the XA10 because of it's removeable XLR handle option - but the model down without an XLR option [but still pricey!], the HFG-10, is probably a fairer direct comparison in this discussion). Good review of the HFG-10 linked to below (the whole review is worth a read but I've linked the TM700 comparison page here).

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Comparison.htm

However, I have more or less decided that I won't spend money on a small cam that does not have 1080p50/60 frame rate - for those times when I want lovely slow motion (as an option) in editing. The 720p50 on my Canon 7D serves well at times in totally non-aliasing type shallow DOF shots and the 720p (up to 60fps) my Sony EX3 delivers is lovely - just wish it was at 1080p sometimes!

1080p50/60 appears to rapidly becoming a new standard in small cams (just see the latest announcements from both Sony [DSC-HX100V & DSC-HX9V] and JVC's GC-PX1 for "hybrid" DSLR/Compact type 1080p60 capable cams in last few days) plus there are several excellent TM700 videos on Vimeo that show it's potential for razor sharp slow motion. Ommission of 1080p50/60 from all the new Canon "prosumer" camcorders already appears (IMHO) to make them dated before they are even out but it really just depends what feature set YOU want.

I'm going to BVE in London mid-Feb to look hard at my 3 main personal choices (i.e. Panny TM900, Canon XA10 or Sony CX700) and will decide which one I plump for after that!

Thought this might be of vague interest - its a video shot recently on the HV40 using the Canon ND filter. Brightened up slightly in FCP mainly for computer screen viewing. The light was tricky with snow white ground, bright sun and clouds but I thought it turned out OK and the camera really does capture the ethereal beauty of the day. Picture a bit soft due to H.264 codec for Vimeo. On camera sound only.

I'm lucky to have shot these images from my patio.


Geoff

The new Canon Vixia HF G10 is getting very good low light reviews. Per some of the reviews, it has the best low light performance they've seen for consumer camcorders in that class. Definitely perked my interest.

I ordered a Sony CX550V and it arrived last week. The quality is very good. On Wednesday I'm going to produce a three camera interview shoot with the CX550V as a closeup camera. The others are a F335 and an EX1R. I'll encode the CX550V to 1440x1080 and edit with multi-cam. From the tests conducted over the weekend, I think it's going to cut together very well.

Dan

"I'll encode the CX550V to 1440x1080 and edit with multi-cam."

What Is the reason for doing that? Are you also encoding the 1920x1080 footage from the EX1? Why encode rather than just putting everything into a timeline using a 1920x1080i preset?

I ask because I have never had any problems mixing "square pixel" HD footage with rectangular pixel HD footage in either PProCS5 or Avid MC5. I regularly mix multiple HDV cam footage (1440x1080) with AVCHD footage (1920 x 1080) on "1920" timelines when doing multi-cam edits. Because there really is no perceptible difference in resolution --- only different pixel shapes --- it has never occurred to me that I should try to encode everything to 1440 or 1920.

Re: What's the short list of great tiny camcorders?
 

Hi Jay,
I've found in my FCP multicam workflows that all camera sources have to be the same format. The F335 will only shoot 1440 P or I. The EX1R is capable of 1440 or 1920 P or I. And the CX500 is only 1920 I, so converting the CX500 to the common 1440 for FCP multicam editing is the solution. I edited the three camera program before going on vacation and it looks great. The white balances matched well and I all I had to with the CX500 closeup camera was convert to 1440 I in Compressor and then sharpen the footage a little in FCP. I used a still camera flash to sync the cameras at the program start. Let me know if you have a muticam workflow for FCP that will let different formats cut together in real time. I brought the CX550 on vacation to Hawaii and it has been working great. While out on a whale watching boat I managed to get a fairly close shot of a whale breeching and can't wait to get home and start looking at the footage on an HD monitor. I'm very impressed with the CX500 and will keep it in the kit as a B or C camera, especially in situations where it is wise to be discreet.
Dan