How to kill our videography market
 

I've been seeing more and more of these type of ads in video forums, craigslist, etc. Has professional videography spiraled downhill so much that we now have to work for almost nothing???? How can any video company compete against a non-profit video organization? This is getting ridiculous, and they are trying to compete in your neck of the woods!


Are you a videographer with your own equipment looking for a gig? If so, we'd like to hire you for occasional gigs. VIDART is an up and coming, not-for-profit, videography organization that has a need for videographers for various projects throughout the country. All proceeds from VIDART go towards charitable causes, including grants for aspiring artists to help produce documentaries, educational videos or features that enhance awareness of environmental and other social issues.

We pay $25 an hour for filming basic events such as weddings, corporate or legal meetings, anniversaries, retirement parties and even birthday parties. TV commercial and other big budget projects such as indie feature films can pay up to $100/hour or more if you have the right skill set.

Equipment needs to be professional: a DSLR or equivalent (capable of shooting 1080p HD) and also a professional sound microphone (Rhodes, Opteka or equivalent). We prefer videographers with their own lens kits so each project can have a magic look and feel to it (rather than just using basic lenses that come with the cameras).

How it will work is when we have a booking, we'll email you, see if you have an opening on your schedule, and if you do, once confirmed, we'll book you for the event. All you have to do is record it, upload the footage to dropbox and then get paid.

College students and recent college grads with photography and videography experience welcome to apply. Potential for advancement to management positions for regional markets.

To apply to join our team, please email info@vidart.org with your resume.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I wouldn't sweat a service like this. Have you ever checked out vidart.org? It's just a placeholder. Having a company that can manage a videographers all over a large geographical area, and deliver content to a client's satisfaction, requires a lot of startup capital. I think doing stuff like this is an idea that only seems workable on the surface: if you actually spend any time thinking about the logistics, you realize it's not quite the easy money-maker that these founders probably considered it to be.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

It's best to ignore them, for they'll probably disappear when they can't get someone with $10,000 worth of gear to work for $25/hour (actually, much less when you take into account their time for pre-production, travel, file organization, management, paperwork...etc). I've seen similar ventures come and go. Good riddance.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

The problem here is that they're advertising their lowball rates for everyone to see, all over the country. A new, prospective video client has no clue what "real" video production costs, and when they see rates like these, they may think it's a normal ballpark figure. When the prospective client shops around and finds that everybody else is too high by comparison, they may "take a chance" and go with the lowballer, based on the half decent samples they see online. Once lowballers are hired, it's another nail in the coffin for professional videographers.

The other problem I see is that their "company" is a non profit organization. These companies are obviously set up by college kids. When and if they rake in whatever money they can, they'll "donate" it back to their film school college buddies who need capital to start their own productions.

What they don't realize is that they're shooting themselves in the foot (and everyone else in the industry) by lowballing like this because the damage has already been done...the new "advertised" rate for videography can be acquired for $25 per hour.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Haha, I'm just imagining somebody coming home from a wedding shoot and trying to upload 100GB+ of footage to Dropbox.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Hey, I'm doing brain surgery and knee replacements for $25/hr. too!! And I work fast... any takers? Anyone??



These sorts of "idealistic" business models pop up because it's cheap to float crazy ideas on the internet...

In the end, if anyone is stupid enough to hire a lo-ball outfit, they'll probably get about what they paid for... and wish they'd paid for a professional. Might even have to spend twice to get it done right if they are serious about results.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Beat me to it.

I would say something along the lines of "water finds its own level." There are going to be folks who want polished videos and have some idea of what that should entail/cost, and there will be those that are clueless and may learn a hard lesson if they hire folks like this and see the work produced.

Notice also how the ad is targeted toward "students/beginners/etc." That tells you who they're aiming to get working for them. They know folks are out there with much higher rates and they aren't trying to get 'em.

What I'm getting at is you're not REALLY competing with those folks. Chances are you're not truly competing for the same jobs. . .if one of you is a serious competitor for a gig, the other is likely not for quality/financial reasons.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I love how they spelled "RØDE". :)

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

And don't know who Opteka is but they don't appear to have anything to do with microphones. And indie feature films? Really?

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

To be fair though, I started out charging peanuts. It was the only way I can get a portfolio up and going ... But that doesn't mean I stuck to those prices I charged back then. No way. I change my prices as and when I need work.

Doing something for free is just straight up taking the mickey out of the pro's in the business. How can people expect a good salary in life if some one just comes along and offers the same services for next to nothing ... that's the whole reason why the UK is in such a state with such low wages being offered by companies. They know they can get some one to do it cheaper at the click of a finger! likewise with these event services!

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I thought they wanted someone to bang out the music track on an old Rhodes piano!?

Bad spelling, bad business model, seriously, what could go wrong?!?

I suppose there will be some suckers who "bite", I'd just hate to be the suckers who answer the "editors needed" ad! They prolly only get $12/hr...

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I once was in talks with an outfit that turned out to be like this. They couldn't get anything together on their end, so they were constantly calling me asking about my schedule. After three times of them trying to book something and never remembering the info I was both telling them over the phone and emailing them, I figured nothing would ever book, and I wasn't surprised when it didn't.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I would have to agree with Warren on this one. When people see these rates on various websites or places they go a baseline of what things cost to them is created. "Well if a lowball video guys is going to charge $200 for a wedding, I am going to pay up and get a good one for $400"...

It is a false impression of what things really cost in our world. I have been giving Thumbtack a shot over the past year and the pricing is all over the map. I am not giving up yet because they are still tweaking their processes, but I get the overall impression that this is the way things are going to be. Pricing power is slowly slipping away

Sure, our industry is not dead but I hestitate to invest in equipment nowdays as I am not as sure about the recoupe as I once was. It seems to me that a respect has been lost between client and vendor. By respect I mean a client entering into a project with realistic cost projections for an industry and not crossing over a social boundry for a lower or lowest price. This appears to be gone.

We will all keep on, keepin' on because that is what we do, but I am not as excited about the business side as I used to be.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I get a kick out of some of the things I read on Craig's list nowadays.

I'm seeing the same around here. Groups will to pay from 20-25 an hr to 100-400 a day for weddings and they are even starting to break into corporate video. But they are still trying to charge the customer top billing.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Thumbtack is a bizarre one. I got some free credits (cause they charge for sending quotes) which is the only reason I pursued any of my leads (of which I get MANY). I got one job out of it and many instances of people simply ceasing to communicate with me after a certain amount of exchange, or other instances where I was forced to stop communicating with them because of Thumbtack'ss Byzantine rules about how you (vendors) may only ASK questions, and can never ANSWER. So if you start asking "how long will this gig last, how many people are on camera" etc. etc., and they say, "can I call you and give you those details", you can't respond, "sorry, thumbtack doesn't allow that until I send an official quote." You just have to sit there like a lump and do nothing and not respond at all and move on with your life. Especially frustrating since they don't require the prospective client to enter any details at all in their initial requests/leads that you see.

And yes, there are still folks out there with real budgets. Some people actually pay me to JUST run teleprompter on gigs! That's right! I am a professional prompter operator! So yes there are also folks with real money to pay cameramen legit industry fees etc. I can say personally it's my own failure as a businessman/salesperson for my own services that work is not more plentiful, because it is out there.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Some slim chance their ad might not be utter hogwash...

You can (and should) price yourself as a commodity if you're only providing commodity-level service. Surely we've all done the "hang-at-the-back-of-the-room-and-hit-record" from time to time to fill out schedules at some point of our careers. All you need is a Canon VIXIA or the like, 1-2 mics, tripod... that's about it. To a degree, the availability and quality of video equipment HAS reached a level where top-notch technical expertise is optional, and for many jobs, artistic excellence is unnecessary. Our concept of what a "wedding video" has become may not be what some clients want or need... for $25/hr they're going to get straight-up "coverage," and maybe that's all they want (especially for meetings, presentations, etc). That's still well over twice what I got paid three years ago shooting local broadcast news.

Jobs that require more thought and skill obviously pay more... and they suggest as much in the ad. $100/hr for a 10-12hr day isn't a terrible day rate.

That said, most of the companies I tried in the past that booked frequent low-end projects with promises of possible higher-end work for their best people failed to understand that economic. Since most of their product was commodity, most of their clientele was looking for commodity, and the high-end jobs rarely happened. You don't go shopping for your engagement ring at Wal-Mart.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I'm sure the ad is "legit", there are many services (or were) similar, TurnHere (has/had its own thread), yellow taxi, and quite a few others. These didn't really mention an hourly rate but instead paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 for a shoot and edit.

Re: films--yeah, the rate is okay, I was snarking about the fact that they believe someone's going to come to them to produce a feature film at all. I could however, see commercials (low budget, small business/local spots), and even music videos (I have seen some very crappy looking music vids on TV).

There are people who value production values and there are people that just need something, ANYTHING, done.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I've never been able to charge people completely ridiculous inflated (professional) video market prices for my work, and maybe that's why I see services like TurnHere -> now Smartshoot as amazing, beautiful, innovative, value creating businesses, and not a thorn in my side.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Its only a value if client gets something useful to them. Many times, with people who are willing to work for those rates, they won't. As for the pro prices, i understand not always being able to get $2000, or $5000, or whatever a gig is "truly" worth, but down in the $200s for the same amount of work is ridiculous. There can be a compromise area between the two.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I think the hard part is demonstrating that the extra effort/cost can actually recoup the investment in business gain.

Can you explicitly demonstrate that for clients who might be otherwise interested in these services?

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

so just wondering, is $25/hour a bad rate for weddings? I been breaking into Houston wedding market and work for 4 companies. They all pay me $25/hour.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Depends on what you're doing and what you're bringing with you. If you're one of the primary shooters and have your own camera, then that's a terrible rate. If you're showing up and they are handing you a camera to get random b-roll that might be missed by one or two other shooters, then it's not quite as bad.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Victor, as reference, 10 years ago I used to pay my shooters $50 per hour.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

You need to factor in the cost of the equipment you're providing (you need to pay it off in a reasonable time scale), plus any insurance and office costs that you have. When running a business, the room you use at home has associated costs and you have to factor them in.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Depends on if it's your gear and your experience, I suppose. If you provide your own gear? No, that's poor. $20-$50 an hour for the person PLUS gear "rental" fee, so to speak. For instance, if they provide the gear, $25 an hour is fine and good just starting out. If you shoot with your own 5d mark ii, lenses, and tripod? Just renting the camera body is $50-$100 from a company, so why are you free?

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

DJs see a lot of these same Craigslist style cheapos. The Pros are the first thing that come to mind for a company that is trying to be national, but just farms out work. It's been done in some form forever, but I'm still getting hired and I'm 50% above market average.

Avoiding competing against cheap is why it is so key to cultivate a unique selling proposition. Why should someone hire YOU, specifically? What do you do differently? OR, in what ways are you noticeably superior?

Also placing yourself in places where good potential clients who like quality and value, over low price is key. A bridal showcase? No. The RIGHT bridal showcase? Sure. Same as other advertising. The tone and quality of your website can make a good impression and lead buyers to the conclusion you want: this guy is worth it.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Craigslist is free, so anyone can post anything they want. There are tons of dreamers out there, and these ads are abundant in my market too, especially since a lot of movie production is taking place in Atlanta (GA offers tax breaks for movie production)... seems like Atlanta attracts more and more dreamers.

I started my video business about two years ago and I suppose my experience is pretty typical of beginners. You have to try everything available just to get your feet in the door. Not all CL is trash, I picked up a few good gigs. The more time you spend reading CL ads, the faster you can weed out the junk. You need to know your position on the scale of values, and act accordingly.

It is obvious that no serious video production can take place for $25/hour. On the other hand, when you need to put bread on the table, $25/hour is better than nothing, so instead of wasting time on the internet you might as well go shoot a boring conference. With time you will get known and instead of sorting through CL ads, you will have another task: to sort through offers and pick the one you really want to do.

The important thing is to never cease learning, so your quality can constantly rise, and be serious, professional in what you produce. Then, market up or market down, you WILL have gigs to work on.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Completely agree Ervin.

I've seen people drop in quality in regards to the work they produce because they are simply getting too many job offers and being greedy.

When your starting out, you do more than the work required. When job offers are coming in, you become picky ...

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Hey Victor

Your rate you are being paid is also VERY subjective to how many hours they will give you as a minimum?

Having to jump in your car and drive 30 minutes to a 1 hour shoot brings your effective rate down to $12.50 an hour. (You also have to drive back so you might drive more than you shoot)

Even using their gear and with close by venues you still need to have an absolute minimum that they will pay you. You sadly also need to realise that your time starts from your house (in fact since you have to shower and change..even before) and ends when you get home so your $25.00 starts getting less and less per hour when you think carefully about it. Car wear and tear, fuel etc etc all comes into it unless they pick you up and drop you off.

Chris

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I would say that doing "portal to portal" (i.e. your time starts from when you leave your house and ends when you're back) will not sit well with many clients, they'll more likely be okay with time starts with arrival at venue and ends when you leave.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I don't really work hourly in the field (but I will when editing 'cause I can do that on my own time and not sacrifice other gigs). Many freelancers including myself work on a half day or day rate. Half day is 0-5 hours (again, I would say from time of arrival at venue 'til you're driving away), full day is 5-10 hours. So if you're okay with $25/hour, for instance, you could say you have a 5-hour minimum, or call it a half day rate and make it $125.

PS, even though it's called a half day, most people do their half day rate as 66% (2/3) of their full day, NOT half. So if your full day rate was $500, instead of half day being $250, it'd be more like $330.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

Hi Josh

I was merely pointing out that hourly rates if a company is paying you doesn't take travel into account so really no client is involves there as the company would change the couple $XXXX and then offer the shoot to the freelancer at $25.00 an hour which would be time on site.

I deal direct with my clients and I never quote an hourly rate simply because a lot more than half of the gig is editing. Even if you specify a hourly attendance at the wedding brides will then do a calculation of your price ...like $2000 to shoot a 10 hour wedding and of course arrive at a rate of $200 an hour ..Wow that a lot of money and a BIG rip off BUT they fail to factor in the many hours for editing!!

I prefer to give a bride a costing based on events rather than hours! I can still charge the same as the "hours" guy ie: $2000 BUT there is no hours mentioned, just event coverage, editing and packaging and that tends to be better accepted than a cost based on hours.

If I was freelancing I would rather be offered a fixed sum for specified coverage and then see if it's worth my while or not. I even work that way with my second shooters and they prefer to be paid $XXX for a specific bit of coverage.

Chris

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I see what you're saying. I have one client who is actually cool enough that I don't quote ahead of time for editing and simply send him a bill based on the hours that I keep track of via my invoicing software. Pretty much anyone else, I do my best to guesstimate what the total cost (I don't edit much that I don't shoot except for the aforementioned client) of shooting and editing will be, BASED on the number of hours I think it'll take me, and just send them a lump quote without mentioning how it's subdivided ("$300 for this, $500 for that"). I won't bill more than that quote unless something changes (they ask for additional blah blah blah not previously discussed). If I end up spending way more time than I thought, that's on me and I try to readjust my rate the next time I deal with someone.

Re: How to kill our videography market
 

I believe today's video market is expanding so much that there is room for everyone. In the past, corporate videos were a luxury only a few could afford, I remember some 75k budgets for such works, but it was maybe "the project of the year" for the client, and certainly a good one for the production company, but you had to invest crazy money to get a Betacam SP unit going.

Nowadays the entry level is so low and the video market has expanded so much that the clients that use to do one or two videos a year now want a video for almost everything!, which, off course is good and bad.

And if you are just starting, you could spend, let's say 3k for a starters rig is quite feasible. So in this case you might be up for a $25h job that will bring some experience, you'll meet people, etc.

When a client calls me asking me: "you are crazy with your prices, this guys will make the commercial for $500", I always say "wow, great deal, go for those guys" in the end the client always come back because, as so many fellow said in this post, sell yourself as a commodity, get paid like one.


Pablo Aura | Director/Filmmaker