29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Thought I would start a new thread on this subject as it has come up in the wedding and events section.

It has been a continual source of annoyance and frustration amongst those that use DSLRs and bridge cameras for events where scenes longer than 29mins 59secs are required, weddings, theatre productions etc. It has though become common place to use DSLRs etc for video work because of the larger sensors, interchangeable lenses and better low light performance than is usually available with similarly priced camcorders.

It means though that at some point during a continuous performance, the recording will stop and a small gap will result while the camera is put back into record mode. That means that even for what may well be a single camera recording with a video camera, it will require two cameras with different start times to cover the gap. It also means that both cameras need to be monitored to avoid missing the restart. There may be some 3rd party work arounds, but still a less than ideal situation.

The reason for the limitation appears initially to be because of an EU ruling in 2007 that any digital camera able to record video for more than 30 mins continuously would be classed as a video camera and be liable for a duty of 4.9%. This seems to coincide approximately with the rapid increase in the use of still cameras for video recording.

What puzzles me though, is why manufacturers should suddenly decide to inhibit the recording time, when every single video camera and camcorder on the market isn't inhibited and has the duty added to the price. Even the majority of video cameras can take still pics, so where is the difference?

Could it perhaps be that manufacturers suddenly realised that film makers were buying DSLRs instead of very much more expensive big sensor video cameras and feared that more profitable sales would be lost, because I can't see a 4.9% duty deterring people from buying the camera they want, particularly if they are having to pay it on an uninhibited video camera anyway. . The fear of lost video camera sales on the face of it seems like a possible explanation, but if that is the case, why isn't the 29 minute limit applied to the same cameras in other parts of the world.

Maybe it is time to lobby the manufacturers to remove the ridiculous limitation and simply add the duty to the price.

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Years ago, the duty may well have been a driver, but I suspect now it's become an excuse. Clearly, looking at the DSLR video specs of many of them, the manufacturers clearly do not want these devices to be considered primarily a video device. That's no doubt because they have real video cameras in production. They keep the specs for video very brief, requiring serious users to add loads of aftermarket parts to get a proper camera setup. So frames, viewfinders, lens add-ons, remotes, audio in/out converters, video outputs etc etc. If it was profit, then they would be selling a complete package with their own branding - but they don't. All the complaints on this and other forums about the awkwardness and silly omissions could be rectified instantly. Sure, a few overheat, but most don't - they just do not want them used as video cameras, so keep the facilities very basic.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

I'm slightly bemused by this having shot Betacam, which had an approx 30 min record time and film with approx 10 min running time per roll. At least you don't have to change tapes or film magazines.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

You shot weddings on Betacam????

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

I've shot lots of things on Betacam There are always quiet moments that you know.won't get used.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Pre Y2K, anything that was shot professionally was shot on beta. If you had a wedding before 2000 that wasn't shot on Uncle Elwin's VHS - it was shot on beta.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Did I dream about Umatic, Hiband Umatic, Betamax, Super VHS, Hi8 ? I shot a lot of stuff on just about every format including Betacam and Betacam SP and have been shooting video for over 30 years. For weddings though I always used a format that could at least cover an hour of ceremony if necessary.

But all of that is completely irrelevant to the thread, as I am perfectly capable of shooting weddings in shorter takes, but the question is why are videographers in EU countries having to put up with deliberately inhibited cameras that are available elsewhere without the limitation?

Would you put up with a car that could only drive for 29 minutes due to a restriction to the size of the tank, sure you could keep stopping at a petrol station, but why should you?

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Is the GH4 also given a time limit in the UK Roger? In Australia the GH4 has no time limit but the bridge cameras still have the limit! I assume this is so bridge cameras don't overshadow their bigger brothers and cause issues with marketing the more expensive units.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Wouldn't an external recorder eliminate the problem?

But of course I know you know that and you're really asking a different question, ie WHY these cameras have to have a silly restriction and what it would take to get the makers to solve this problem. And I guess the only think that makes sense is that it's their preferred bushiness model.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

You also dreamt about M II ... or maybe that was a nightmare.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Christ got the word ........ Marketing. One lighting control manufacturer I know has one product in the range that is very much cheaper than the others in the range, and has two small differences in it doesn't have a monitor socket or a USB socket. Clearly, the headers for these are on the board inside, but the box has no holes cut. Two thousand pounds for these two omissions. A few people buy them, but it's driven up sales for the dear one! Marketing is very clever science!

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

If you filmed a wedding on MII you would be in the video hall of fame :-) I also seem to recall 1" and something called 'C' or similar, and let's not forget Video 2000 and the beginnings of Minidv, DV1&2, Digi Beta, the list goes on.

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

It would Jim, but wouldn't that be just like sticking a big tank on the roof of my fuel inhibited car? The point of course is that the internal memory cards are perfectly capable recording hours of video, they've just prevented the cameras in some areas from using it. If it their preferred business model, why only in the EU? It can't be the 4.9% duty as that is on all video cameras anyway.

Chris, I am not sure about the G4, but I think Steve has one and will be able to tell you if he reads this.

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Just reminded me reading your post again, Betacam was one of the ways that Sony recovered some of the big investment in Betamax. Betacam was basically a beefed up Betamax which also used the same tapes, the difference being that Sony speeded up the system to run at 6 times the speed to greatly improve the quality. Of course that meant that recording time was severely restricted, so 60 minute tapes would only run for 10 minutes on Betacam, or 120 down to 20minutes. Of course Betacam and Betacam SP went on to become probably the most successful and enduring professional format and certainly recovered the investment for Sony.

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Also, Betacam used component video rather than composite. It's a tape size and cassette that continued to HDCAM.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

The Samsung NX1 has the limit, but with the latest firmware update it will automatically restart afterwards.

Sounds like a nice and nifty way to get around the taxes!! And saves you needed to monitor it constantly.

Still got the issue of a few frames missing for a fraction of a second, but not an issue at all if using multiple cameras.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Never did a wedding with it but this was the first videocam I used. Not that i was anywhere as good looking as this young lady)

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

If anyone wants read about what introduces a tariff onto a stills camera in the EU, you can find out on P254-257. This is 4.9% for a video camera as against 0% for a digital camera. So you can see why the restrictions are currently applied to DSLRs etc by manufacturers in a price conscious stills camera market.

http://www.meti.go.jp/english/report...1WTO/1-4EU.pdf

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

That only confirms what we already know, that 4.9% duty is charged on cameras that can record video for more than 30 minutes, leaving cameras that can only record less than 30 minutes to have no import duty. What it doesn't do is explain why it was felt necessary to put a 30 minute limit on, or why manufacturers bother to enable digital cameras for video at all if they are concerned about losing sales on higher priced video cameras.

Let's face it, any film maker using a DSLR for documentary, general programme making , music video corporate etc is probably not going to be shooting clips for more than a few minutes at a time anyway. They are also not going to spend thousands of pounds more to get the same picture quality without the time limit. So what is the point of the duty if it is not actually stopping anyone from using the cameras for video. As the duty is only applicable to the EU, why don't the manufacturers just offer the same version but without the inhibited record time as a 4.9% more expensive option. They already sell them outside the EU, so the products already exist. There are already wide variations in suppliers prices that are greater than 4.9% on the inhibited cameras, so I am still at a loss to understand such a pointless regulation and the manufacturers failure to offer the option.

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

I agree with Roger here. At this point in time it is getting kind of stupid with the number of cameras out there. The camera makers market the cameras with all kinds of video features but then want to limit the recording? Does not make sense to me.

4.9% on a $700 camera is only $35. Yes, we would all pay an extra $35 for unlimited recording time.

I use a little Panasonic LX7 for hidden camera shots some even right on stage with performers. When the LX100 came out I was interested in upgrading and willing to pay the almost 3x price difference. The LX100 has a 30 min. record limit so no sale from me. Would it hurt them to have a $100 more expensive model number with different firmware?

What really gets me is a lot of cameras have a US specific model to begin with. So what the heck does EU tax policy have to do the US? Just do not understand...

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

No doubt there is some obscure trade agreement somewhere... since grey market importing an NTSC camera into a EU PAL territory wouldn't be hard... can't have those dangerous cams running around without limits that can't be taxed!

It's still silly though. With so many dual mode cameras, there are "still" cameras that are likely as good or better than comparably priced video cameras.

I'm guessing the costs to lobby for a regulatory change exceed anticipated market profits.

In the end, I've been using cameras with the limit for some time, and doing a "double tap" when needed on long clips when there's a brief lull in long form events. even with several cameras running, it's not THAT big a problem. I can only see it being an insurmountable issue when you have an unmanned camera that is in an inaccessible position.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

That's it Dave, it's easy enough to tap record if you reach the limit, so what is the point of having it? I can't believe it is for the sake of a measley 4.9%

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

I assume the EU decided on what defines a video camera (in the way they do) and if something ticks the boxes it fills the criteria. Presumably most of the stills photographers don't want to pay 4.9% extra, so by limiting the record time it no longer fits. Tax and duty laws are full of such things e;g. stamp duty on a house above a certain value.

I'm not sure if the FAT file size is a factor in this, it got mentioned at the time all this came out.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

The situation makes sense to me, once you make the assumption that the EU wants to tax video cameras and avoid taxing still cameras. (Ignore for a moment whether you believe that this is good or bad policy.)

The first thing they need to do is make a definition of "video camera". Industry members point out that the first version inadvertently includes still cameras. "You know one when you see one" doesn't work. Eventually, policymakers and industry representatives settle on a flawed but workable definition (including the 30 minute limit.) (I've worked with policymakers on the definition of a "television set" that differentiates it from a "computer monitor". Believe me; there is no perfect definition.)

After the tax goes into place, you'd better believe that manufacturers take a 4.7% price increase seriously. If that makes a competitor's product more competitive, it's a problem. The manufacturer has to decide which is more important to their target market. Low price wins in many cases. (One might believe otherwise, but we don't have access to the sales data. Don't underestimate the effect of a higher price or a tax on sales.)

Some products are market specific. In this case, the US version can ignore the 30 minute limit. Some are global. For these, the tax might only affect a third (or so) of the market, but the overall numbers still might come up better when all products are limited and only the EU products get the tax break.

It really does come down to money. If one can afford an Alexa, EPIC, F5 or C300ii, the 30 minute limit doesn't come into play. We look for less expensive gear, the lower cost is only possible due to higher volume, and corners must be cut to succeed at that level of the market.

The only solution I see is to go back to step 1 and lobby EU policymakers to rescind that tax (or tax still cameras too) and the rest will take care of itself. But given that there is a tax on one of two similar products, stuff like this happens after a series of logical decisions.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

I understand your points Jon, but the fact remains that from a tax point of view it is a pointless difference given that all lower end video cameras take stills and digital camera take video. A bit like saying a saloon car (sedan) is a private car because it carries people plus luggage, but an estate car (station wagon) is a commercial vehicle because it carries luggage plus people.

The extra selling cost from a manufacturers point of view is also not really relevant as most manufacturers have inhibited and not inhibited cameras for different parts of the world, so could easily make the more expensive non restricted one optional.

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

If they de-restrict individual cameras the cost difference would probably be more than the 4.9%, it could be 10%, if not more, because of labour & handling costs etc.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Don't quite understand your post Brian, I am not suggesting that manufacturers derestrict individual cameras. As I have already mentioned elsewhere in this thread, manufacturers already market derestricted versions of their cameras in other parts of the world, so they are existing products.

If I take the Panasonic G4 as an example, it is available in the UK restricted, but in other areas as unrestricted. This has already led to at least one company importing the derestricted version. It doesn't cost the manufacturers any more at all and they could just offer it as an alternative camera with the duty added. This is exactly what happened a few years ago when some manufacturers offered two versions of their cameras one with video and audio in and one without. That was because the EU introduced a 14% duty on cameras that could record video from an external source.

Roger

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

They'd have to import those cameras on an individual basis, they're unlikely to be part of their standard stock in country stock or if they are, they'll change premium prices, rather than the discount prices at many dealers. If they have to de-restrict the firmware, they'll charge you for doing so.

Any changes in how the EU deals with this would have to be taken up in Brussels.

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

Roger, you've hit the nail on the head... if the camera is available elsewhere, a "gray market" of genuine, but not "genuine" for a region will rapidly develop!

You've perhaps never dealt with bureaucratic silliness (we all have, sometimes you have to blank it out, oh the humanity...), but it's happening more and more as mindless drones are given huge piles of RULES they are told to enforce, half of which they have no idea about, the other half, they just mindlessly enforce because they were told to... but only after they are told they have to enforce them, because previously they had no clue about them and just let them slide... it would make a good comedy sketch, it just happens to affect this one "familiar" area we are familiar with!

I just had a USPS Global Guaranteed Express package (co-op with Fed Ex. GUARANTEED overnight delivery) returned to me after 6 days (5 days AFTER it was to be delivered...) The package was marked "postage", as in NO postage, circled around the part that clearly stated "US Postage prepaid online" in rather noticeably large type, with of course a scannable bar code that was scanned when the package was accepted (so obviously postage WAS paid!). Additionally some genius went around all sides of the box which had joint Global Express Guaranteed/ FedEX USPS issue stickers dutifully applied at the local PO... and scribbled out the "FedEx"....

I actually while trying to locate the "lost" and undelivered parcel identified the idiot drone (sorry, probably unduly insulting drones here) that had mishandled it - her supervisor was rude because I had raised my voice (imagine that... after such incompetence!), and was going to "talk to her"... I have since spoken with a USPS "insider", who told me this has happened multiple times... guess "talking to" doesn't work too well...

NEVER underestimate the idiocy or incompetence that can result once a governmental agency decides something needs to be taxed, stamped, safety labelled, addressed or just generally mucked up!!!


I shoot video with a still camera (even WITH a stupid limit!!!! HA HA, take that!!), and use a TV for a MONITOR!!!

I are a rebel!! <wink>

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

The real shame is that if manufacturers were to "open" the firmware after the cameras were out for a while, hacks could "fix" the institutionally "broken" stuff with a couple lines of code... and the taxman could strut about and holler, but do naught about it!!

Re: 29min record limit on Cameras in the EU
 

This has never been about the price. It's about marketing. Marketing specific to a country or region. In the countries where the duty doesn't apply, their sales don't perk up because of a measly 5% but it puts a choke on the dealers margins, so they don't push the products. Advertising concentrates on stills performance, and some dealers switch their emphasis to alternate products. I was selling video kit in the late 70s and despite people wanting to record off air programmes on their mega expensive camera systems, they didn't have that facility for the same reason we're talking now, 30 years later. Back then, the Germans could engage record, and we tried to import a few from there. The UK arm refused to supply parts for it. I bought a big format mixer from Germany ten years ago, and Yamaha did the same thing. Refused to have anything to do with it because it didn't fit their UK distribution policy. The duty is a smokescreen. For whatever reason, the manufacturers simply don't wish to promote them here, and use the duty as an excuse. I don't understand it. Many people would pay a hundred quid for a continuous record facility, but resort to risky hacking which the manufacturers know puts many people off. It's just marketing policies, nothing else.