Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

This is a technical issue that should get addressed when picking a location or when you're getting ready to film, not when story boarding. Changing the movie's aspect ratio or framing because you don't know how to deal with low ceilings is like Brian said the tail wagging the dog.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh it doesn't have anything to do with low ceilings, I just want to get the mic in close for the sound quality to be better in the wide shots, and hence why I wanted to frame the wide shots, without much headroom in order to get in closer for quality.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

If you can't get close enough with a shot gun mic on a boom, either use radio mic with a lav or ADR your dialogue or a rifle mic on the end of the boom, Although, with the latter, you need to be good on the boom, I've got a Sennheiser MKH 816 in my storeroom, the earlier models used to be standard kit for film sound recordists. If you ever see "Badlands" projected in the the wrong aspect ratio, you;ll see a 805 or 815 on the end of a boom coming into bottom frame.
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A wide shot with MCU head room will probably look bad, that's unless you're using TV style framing on your MCU, which can tend to have a lot more headroom than used in cinematic drama.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Ryan why do the basic techniques of recording dialogue have to be explained to you? Most dialogue occurs in the CU or MCU. On the rare occasion it’s in the wide you use one of the methods Brian mentioned. It seems for every part of the process you come up with these weird approaches that don’t make sense followed by an explanation “well I just wanted to make sure...” If you had more experience on proper film you would know what needs to be done.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh okay, but I want good dialogue for the wide as well. Especially for a couple of scenes so far, where I wasn't planning on getting any MCUs. Some scenes have multiple actors in and the plan was too two wides. One of of half the actors, then a reverse of the other half, so two wides. But that's it, since I won't time for MCUs of each actor, plus some of the characters are not more major characters so individual MCUs are not called for, for each person who speaks. Now some movies do this though, so I thought it was do-able therefore, if it's been done before.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

It's been done loads of times, but they've got the option of using more than a single shotgun mic on a boom.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

A professional who does this for a living who has a wealth of experience would know the proper approach for any given situation. You on the other hand spend your day on internet forums discussing half bake ideas based on your limited amateur experiences, coming up with solutions to previous attempts that weren't executed properly. These discussions revolve around you trying to over plan and over compensate for all your short comings whether they be lack of experience or proper equipment/location/etc needed for a professional movie.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

But there are a lot of movies that have been made with just boom mics though, haven't there been, especially before lavs were used? So how did they do it?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

They had people who knew what they were doing, proper sound stages that DON'T sound like cathedrals, or the open air on non-stormy days. However, the most important thing is the first one people. Skilled people, pro-active people, people that are worth the money they charge. Much better to not start fires than have detailed plans for fighting them.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Okay that makes sense. I can try to find a sound recorder/mixer who can pull it off then.

But this is why I thought a wide aspect ratio might be better, because then I can have say six actors in a wide shot, without having to have as much headroom then, if that makes sense. Or I thought it would be convenient anyway.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Often they had Fisher booms and they filmed in studios with proper acoustics,


The average single person news crew goes out with more sound kit than you have.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh okay, I had the fisher boom one one of my shoots before, from an audio person but I didn't know it was called a fisher boom. Thank for showing me. Watching the video now.

However, I was told before that booms don't work for wide shots, because there is too much headroom. So if they used fisherbooms before, how did they manage to get around the too much headroom problem, unless I am missing it?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Because they were shooting in a studio where there's less reverberation and if you listen on some films, they're not that tightly miked. They may also have hidden the mics inside the set, I've done this on some corporates and it works extremely well on wide shots.

They could also use one or more Sennheiser MKH 805/805/816 mic on booms because they had top boom operators, You don't need to be that close with these mics. Here's a discussion on using them https://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/...big-shotguns/:

They had more gear and experience than you.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh okay. I have the NTG-3 mic shotgun mic, and the AT4053b. Should I use the NTG-3 for most of my indoor shots then, if you don't have to be as close with shotguns then? Or do you have to be closer with the NTG-3 as opposed to an 816?

I also tried attaching a couple of storyboard examples, to give an example of what I mean with mic headroom decisions, but I cannot figure out how to attach jpegs on here though if it's possible too?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

You've got the gear, why don't you test it?

You can be further away with a 816 or other similar mics than with any shotgun mic. However, they need to be used with care and accuracy.

You don't need to post storyboards, I'm sure everyone knows what a wide shot looks like.

Another alternative is ADR, it's pretty easy these days. You can get the actors to deliver their lines again after you have the good take. That method was used on a very low budget feature I worked on and you weren't aware of any dialogue issues.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh okay thanks. Well I've done ADR in the past, and would rather find an on set solution if possible. But how much further away can an 816 go in comparison? It didn't really give measurements in the article.

I've used the NTG-3 on other shoots, but no matter how accurate you are at aiming the mic to the mouth, if there is something in the background that the human ear can hear, it seems the mic will still pick it up though in my tests. Even if the dialogue covers it up from aiming accurately, that noise could still be heard when people are done speaking, and in the room tone.

But what I don't understand is, when people say wide shots have too much head room for booms, then why not just frame the wide so there is not so much headroom then?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

As I mentioned, for interiors they would've often been using sound stages in studios. Taking out background noise during the silence in dialogue tracks is a job for post production.

They mentioned a distance in the last message. You really need to test the mic you're actually using.

They frame wide shots for how it looks, not for having a mic 6 inches above people's heads.

The easiest method would be to rent some radio mics, if the shot is going to be wide and you don't want to ADR.

In the end you'll have to do what your resources will allow and work within them. It doesn't help if you keep imposing your own restrictions.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh it's just in the past I've had problems with radio mics, such as close rustling especially if you want the actors to move around more while speaking. So I was trying to find other ways. I guessed that master shots were framed because of how they look, not to get 6 inches above the actors head, but why not frame them in order to get those six inches, and put looks as secondary, since a master shot, without much headroom can still look good? Or won't it? I just feel that if you put sound in the framing first, and looks come second, then you don't not lavs as much, for each actor, unless I am wrong.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Why bother to test anything when Ryan can get free advice here ... and then ignore it.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

NO KIDDING! That is how microphones work. That is how sound waves work.

Q: How many people here are banging their heads on the wall?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

It was said on here before that if the shotgun mic is aimed accurately enough, then that really helps solve the problems. I was point out how the background noise will still be a problem no matter how accurately the mic is aimed. And then it was said that sound stages help.

I can try to find locations where background noise won't be much of an issue then hopefully.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

All of us. Twice today I have started to type a long response and then deleted it 'cause really, what's the point? The less you invest in the threads and just sit back and watch, the more tolerable they become. I don't know how Paul hasn't ended up in a padded room by this point.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

All of us. Twice today I have started to type a long response and then deleted it 'cause really, what's the point? The less you invest in the threads and just sit back and watch, the more tolerable they become. I don't know how Paul hasn't ended up in a padded room by this point.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

You should be in radio. cinema is a visual medium, where the framing can imply a meaning to what's going on.

On your budget, the ADR method will work, just record the dialogue after the good take, so that the performances match. What's good enough for Fellini is good enough for you - he had to do it the hard way.

Yes, this more difficult than actually shooting the scene, Certainly it would take a lot less time!

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh okay I thought cinema was also an audio medium just as much as visual and that it was pretty much 50/50.

You mean record the dialog right after shooting, on the same shoot? I have tried that though, but the speed of the dialogue did not match later, because the speed and timing was different though. We tried a few takes of course, but none of them match, and you cannot tell until later in the editing though.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Read this out loud a 100x before posting again.
You've had problems in the past with booming, wireless lavs, and ADR. There's no where to hide, you simply aren't good at this. Almost all your problems and questions are variations of how do you do something a different way because you can't do it the accepted way. Why do you think most people don't attempt to film their own movies, because it's hard and it's expensive.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh okay I read that but isn't it good to try to find different solutions if it wasn't properly executed before though? I can find a better location for next time, and don't shoot until I find one if that is better, and get better equipment as well, but I thought that less headroom in the wideshots, couldn't hurt either.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

As the director your job is to create an engaging films that pulls the audience in. It;s not your job to worry about how the sound recordist is going to mic the scenes, it's your job to select a person that can carry out the job, no matter how you decide to shoot the film.

This isn't an aesthetic decision, you're painting yourself into a corner, as usual, over something that a competent sound person can do without even breaking into a sweat.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh okay, it's just I've worked with other directors who didn't pay enough attention to this sound and I thought it suffered as a result so I didn't want to do that as well.

But I can just storyboard and not worry about it so much. it was brought to my attention that I should storyboard the movie in 2.00:1. However when it comes to DCP spec requirements, they only list 1.85 and 2.39 as options though. I'm having trouble confirming if 2.00 is an option for DCP, if anyone knows for sure?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Maybe the sound department was under equipped for the job that they were trying to do.

You've already asked about 2:1 aspect ratio in another very long thread, so go back and look though it.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

I really wish you'd use the same terminology. Master shot and wide shot are NOT the same thing at all. A master shot is usually, but not always the wide shot.

Microphones are best considered torches. I've got a nice LED zoom torch and on wide, it's a cardioid, then it moves through hypers and supers into shotguns, then long shotgun.

In my theatre life, I always smile when we get a new follow spot operator. Everyone has told them it's easy. Everyone who says this is an idiot. Once you are good, it's easy. Keeping that circle in the right place is immensely difficult at first - predicting which way the person on stage is going to walk, and worse - the bigger the venue, the further away the spots are, and the bigger they are. Some are big enough to have considerable inertia. You need to keep the person in the beam, and if they walk out of it, you get fired! No joke. Let somebody famous plunge into darkness is the worst thing you can do. Follow spots have a lever - it controls the diameter of the beam. If you use too wide a beam, it lights up everything. Too small and it often lops their head off. Even worse - if they walk towards you the beam needs to be widened and if they go further away, narrowed.

EXACTLY like using a boom. All those things apply. If the boom is too close, the beam is too narrow, and missing their mouth is easy. Move it too far away and too many extra things appear in the beam.

I find it hard to understand you've used one of these booms - they're HUGELY expensive, and it took me a big favour to be allowed to try one out, and I know for certain that enormous amounts of practice are needed. even getting up onto one is difficult. Using a boom pole is not remotely similar. I have a rather neat gizmo that you can put onto the end of a boom pole - that when you twist the pole, it rotates the end. Even that needs good coordination.

You mentioned the lavs making noise - that too is a sound skill. Where exactly are you going to find this competent sound person? Do you have one you can call?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Well I was the boom operator and the sound person pointed out to the director how they wouldn't have lavs for the day. The director said they would work around it. But the director just did whatever shots he wanted and no matter if they could be framed without lavs or not. So I feel like I should be aware of that based on that experience.

I know a sound person who has lavs but he is not experienced with the boom as much so I would have to find somebody else to do the boom.

Oh and I have my own boom pole which is maybe why they ask me to, rather than me using someone else's. I feel I have gotten quite good at the booming. But when I direct, I prefer to concentrate on that, and find someone else to boom if possible, if they are good at it of course. I don't think the accuracy of the booming was the issue though. In the short film before, did the dialogue sound off axis? I thought the background noise was a problem but I thought that the aiming of the mic and the axis was overall good, unless I am wrong?

Also, I meant master shot, sorry, not wide shot. Sorry if I said wide, I meant master.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

What kind of people do you work with where the Director is told 50% of the shoot is no good before they shoot anything and he ignores it? You also said So can't you get that person? If they can operate a Fisher an ordinary boom is childs play.

You have to face facts Ryan - you need a real sound op, and you need them to have the right kit. Keep in mind, you were pretty clueless with the boom.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

When did I say a director ignored 50 percent? I said I thought sound was 50 percent of the movie besides the visuals. I didn't use the word ignore at all, nor did I say that 50 percent of anything should be ignored. Oh okay, how was I clueless with the boom before? Did the sound sound off axis with the mouths before, and was not aimed on the mouths enough? I didn't operate the fisher, someone else did. But I operated a boom pole that I lift on some of my shoots, depending on who was there that day.

And yes I can get a real sound op. But I thought I should give them less headroom in the mastershots, so they can get the boom in closer. Unless they are so good they can boom with a shotgun mic that is like three feet away or more and it will still sound good, in some of those master shots.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Well if you already know that, why did you even bother to make that statement that I quoted above (in post #140)?

A long time ago I asked you a multiple choice question, which is higher priority to you, making a movie or talking about making a movie. Your answer was "making a movie." At the time I said I didn't believe it, and every inane comment you post on here proves that what you really want to do is just talk about it, over and over, same questions, same answers, same excuses.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Oh sorry, when you say if I already know that, know what exactly? Or what exactly are you referring to?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

"That" refers to what was quoted immediately above my question about your knowing "that."

Your statement "I was point out how the background noise will still be a problem no matter how accurately the mic is aimed" and the surrounding context

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Yes I see, but what about that statement was inconsistent exactly? Sorry, it's just I said that no matter how accurate you aim the mic, there will be background noise. I don't see where I said anything to contradict that, unless I am wrong?

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Not to mention the "good old days" when you had to make sure you had enough carbon.

Re: I'm having trouble storyboarding a movie because of covid restrictions.
 

Ryan - it's rather sad that we remember your posts better than you.

We had tales of boom woe for weeks - strange noises, distant sounding, reverberant spaces. We've done it all before.

Read back just a bit - you said you did a movie where the director couldn't be bothered to wait for sound, so 50% of what was shot may well have had good images, but the other 50% had bad sound. The maths is quite simple. You said the director
[quote[The director said they would work around it. But the director just did whatever shots he wanted and no matter if they could be framed without lavs or not.[/quote]
He ignored sound's problem. You said it - he didn't bother. We just read what you say.

Here is a picture from a 3 set UK TV programme - really good audio - lots of actors, plenty of headroom and just 3 booms. No lavs. Made the same way sit coms were in the 60s and 70s and has excellent audio. No shotguns, just cardioids - back in the old days - they used AKG D25's but then lighter weight cardioids became popular (451s). The extra width of a cardioid means they can cover multiple people. Short shotguns work, but they're perhaps a bit too narrow for some uses. long ones even tougher to aim.