Battery Quality
 

I see there are lots of camera batteries for sale out there from various Internet stores and eBay for much much less money than the OEM models.

For example, I am looking to purchase additional batteries for a GL2 and from Canon they run over $100. I can pick up compatible batteries for $20 from a variety of different places.

My question is there a difference? Would it be a waste of the $20? Is there a general rule you use when buying batteries? I was thinking I could buy 5 for the price of one!

I know you get waht you pay for so that is why I post this question, is there a huge difference?

Many people here will advice you to only use official batteries to run no risk.

I have to admit: I bought 2 batteries for my XL1s on ebay, and they still work like a charm. Costed me 50 euros instead of what would have been 500 euros.
So no problems for me.

Buying off brands can be a mixed bag. Some brands, like LENMAR are well known and have a good reputation with resellers. They are less than the Manufacturer's batt price, but still higher than the Cheapo Brand x you can find on Ebay.

You should note, that Canon's official policy is that useing off brand batts will void the warranty. Some people on the board, have sent in their cameras with problems, with an off brand battery attached, and Canon has seized on this as a reason to void their warranty.

Some people have bought the cheapo brands, and found that they don't deliver the length of charge they say... and when actually WEIGHED against the same Cannon Batts, actually weigh less... so clearly the cells inside don't measure up.

My personal choice, is to buy the Lenmar's at a good savings,(I find they are equal or better than Canon's in charge rate) but stay away from the 'ten dollar' batteries.

It's your call.

I have some BP-945 knockoffs that I use. $40 each. I don't know how long they are supposed to last, but they last a very long time and they have not exploded. So I'm satisfied.

How fast do these generic batteries charge? Charging my Z1's stock battery for 45 minutes gets it about an hour of battery life. For whatever reason, I've always thought that generic batteries take longer to charge.

Does anyone know if this is true?

no problemos
 

I too have purchased several no name brands off E-Bay and they have performed well so far. Sometimes they dont give accurate readings as far as charge time or minutes left but for the amount of money I saved they're certainly worth it.

I've posted on this before, but it bears repeating. Although I haven't bought the batteries you are looking at, I have a pair of generic Li-Ion V-mount 95 Wh batteries which I've used for two years with an IDX VL-2 Plus charger and pro Sony gear. If you go to B&H and look under Pro Video, Batteries & Power, On-Camera Batteries, then All+Sony V-mount+Li-Ion+All, and you'll find them right at the top of the list as Bescor BPLI-95s. Exactly the same thing. I mean that literally. EXACTLY the same. Okay, one difference: the price for the Bescors is more than twice what they go for elsewhere, and they don't even put their name on them. Where's the pride?

Failures? Zaps? Kablooeys? None. Drove the camcorder through several days of single-digit weather, and that was on one battery. I've never taken a charger on the road. Whatever for? The only things that were a bit odd is that the charger never fully charges them in one go. Press the built-in test button, and only four of the five LEDs light. Also, the camcorder (a Sony DSR-1 DVCAM unit) was a bit optimistic on the battery level, showing better than half charge before abruptly shutting down. To be fair, it does show voltage on startup, however briefly.

What you really pay for is snob factor. Given a choice between about $91 for generic, $295 for Bescor (same thing), $300 or $550 for Sony, $330 for IDX, $350 or $400 for Switronix (who?), or (holy @$!*#!) $550 or $750 for PAG, all batteries with the same specs, what would you go for?

Manufacturers routinely put their name on subcontracted products without divulging the source. They buy down to a price, then gouge, gouge, gouge. What you buy today might not have been made by the same contractor a year ago, or a year from now. Do your homework, and try them out. Don't listen to the ditto-heads who haven't got anything to back up their assertions. Yes, sadly, there are those who repeat hearsay and conjecture and think they are helping. This comes from a diet rich in Faux News. Just listen to those who have used the products in question.

When I sold everything else in favor of an XL-2 outfit, I kept these batteries and the charger. I need to call Adorama tomorrow and ask why they haven't shipped my IDX adapter for the XL-2 yet. Either they cross town to B&H and get one, or I cancel the order and get one from B&H. Either of these batteries should power the XL-2 for over twelve hours.

Granted, the batteries I cited are quite a bit different than what you are considering, but I think the comparison is still valid. Only you can decide if $20 is a risk. I can spend that on any number of things, and that's just at the supermarket! I say, try it, and test head-to-head as fairly as you can. Whatever the results, post a detailed report. We'd all appreciate it.

I just ordered one of these "BP-945" 6000 mAh batteries off eBay. We'll see how it does.

Update: that battery is all Chinese, and I'v ordered another that boasts Panasonic cells. When I get them I'll run a battery of tests on them. So to speak.

I bought a couple of batteries on eBay from a guy in Hong Kong for my Sony cam. Supposedly the specs were identical.

Big mistake. I'm lucky if I get two hours out of what's supposed to be a 4.5 hour battery.

Randy

Initial test results
 

I got the thoroughly Chinese generic battery today, with a label rating of 6000 mAh. The other battery should be here next week. An update will follow.

B1 = Canon BP-930, a label-rated 3000 mAh battery that comes with the Canon XL-2.
B2 = Generic Chinese battery, label-rated at 6000 mAh.
B3 = Generic battery with Panasonic cells, label-rated at 6000 mAh.

Initial test results and comments:

Weight:
B1 = 188g
B2 = 280g
B3 =

B2 is distinctly larger, so some of the extra weight is simply plastic. There is no way of knowing how much of the battery's weight is in the case, but clearly, the 6000 mAh battery in no way weighs twice that of the stock B1 battery. Other dimensional differences will be added later.

Run-time tests:

These were conducted after charging both batteries on the Canon CA-920 charger until the steady LED indication of full charge. The tapes were virgin Sony PHDVM-63DM Digital Masters. The XL-2 was set at 30p, Auto, 16:9, 20x lens with OIS and AF on, and external mic with phantom power supplied. However, for consistency's sake, I recorded bars and tone only. The tapes were recorded to the end, whereupon the XL-2 was switched to VCR mode and the tape rewound. A new tape followed, and so on. All tests at room temperature. For reference, the BP-930 is rated at 90 minutes (90').

Total run time tests:
B1 = 150' or 2:30
B2 = 263' or 4:23
B3 =

This was the total time the camera was on, including recording, rewinding and tape ejection and loading. If I were actually using the camera to record a scene in the normal sense, the run time would almost certainly be less.

Tape run time test:
B1 = 139' or 2:19
B2 = 248' or 4:08
B3 =

This is the actual recording time. The tapes have an observed capacity about 65' or 1:05 each.

Voltage at discharge:
B1 = 6.38 VDC
B2 = 6.64 VDC
B3 =

Batteries were removed from the camera when the camera shut off automatically, not on the "change battery pack" indication. Battery charge times from flat will be included later.

Charge times from dead (or flat, if you prefer.)
B1 = 127' or 2:07
B2 = 250' or 4:10
B3 =

Batteries were allowed to cool a minimum of four (4) hours before recharging. Recharging a hot (just used) battery will shorten its life permanently.

Approximate indicated battery levels and times:
B1 = 75% at about 1 hour; 50% at about 1:30 hours; 25% at about 1:35 hours.
B2 = 75% at about 1:00 hour; 50% at about 1:43 hours; 25% at about 3:10 hours.
B3 =

Please note that these times are only approximate. Clearly B2 has a long third quarter, and a very short fourth, whereas B1 has a very short third.

Conclusion:
B1: rated at 3000 mAh, lasted 2:30. Baseline for comparision.
B2: rated at 6000 mAh, lasted 4:23. Adjusted rating: 5260 mAh.
B3: rated at 6000 mAh, lasted

Street price (exclusive of shipping or tax):
B1 = 74.99
B2 = 16.59
B3 = 13.59

Comments:
I'm sure Canon is quite conservative with their battery rating. Using it, as we must, as a baseline, clearly the B2 battery was optimistically rated. Still, for bang for the buck, it clearly wins hands-down. I will update this when I get the other generic battery (B3) next week, which claims to have Panasonic cells.

Generic battery test results
 

I've finished testing two generic batteries and the results are interesting. There is considerable difference in the performance quality between them.

Batteries compared:
B1 = Canon BP-930, 7.2V 3000mAh Li-Ion, made in Japan.
B2 = Generic BP941/945, 7.2V 6000mAh, made in China.
B3 = Generic BP941/945, 7.4V 6600mAh, made in Taiwan with Panasonic cells.

Tape run times in Canon XL-2 (minutes and h:mm) and disharged voltage:
B1 = 139' or 2:19; 6.38V
B2 = 248' or 4:08; 6.64V
B3 = 336' or 5:36; 6.33V

Adjusted mAh ratings (using B1 = 3000mAh as baseline):
B2 = 5353mAh (89% or label rating)
B3 = 7252mAh (110% of label rating)

Time to charge in Canon CA-920 and charged voltage:
B1 = 127' or 2:07; 8.38V
B2 = 250' or 4:10; 8.23V
B3 = 306' or 5:06; 8.32V

Weight and depth of battery:
B1 = 188g, 39mm
B2 = 280g, 58mm
B3 = 284g, 58mm

Comments:
Clearly B2, the Chinese generic with Chinese cells didn't perform up to spec. It's high discharged voltage and low charged voltage shows a low current capacity of its cells. The Taiwanese generic, B3, with Panasonic cells clearly exceeds its rating of 6600mAh. It was also cheaper than B2. Note, too, how the charge times vs. run times compare. B1 and B3 charge in slightly less time than they operated, whereas B2 took longer.

B2 is still a good value, at least initially, but I'd not get another. On the other hand, I would not hesitate to purchase more of B3, especially at a price of less than $15 a piece.

There are two major cell vendors out their - Panasonic and Sanyo. They both deliver consistent quality cells, and stand behind the spec numbers. Then, there are a variety of Chinese cells, they can be all over the place in their quality and consistency. When a pack vendor makes a pack, it can be made with the brand name cells (Pan, Sanyo) or off brand. The Sanyo and Panasonic cells are more expensive, making the packs more expensive. Lesser quality cells can deliver good capacity first, but after a few cycles they will start to deteriorate. All this general information is well known among the pack manufacturers, real life results can vary...

Is there a risk of damaging your camcorder with the chinese made batteries?

Ye, if they blow up inside of it:-(

Alex -

Do you mean literally explode? Does that actually happen?

Do the Chinese batteries ever push to much power at a camcorder?

This sounds awfully apocryphal, and batteries never "push" anything. They are a reservoir of potential energy. If they can't supply the current demands of the load, they could overheat, but the voltage drop would probably convince the camera that the battery was dead before anything serious happened. As I noted in my tests, the Chinese job had a lower charged voltage and higher disharged voltage than the others. This shows a higher internal resistance. The XL-2 is rated at 7.2 watts full load at 7.2 VDC. That's one fat ampere of current, a lot for any battery to supply continuously. That's like a 120 watt light bulb on 120 V.

These (catastrophic events) do not happen too often, I would not worry about it. The poor quality packs usually do not deliver rated capacity, and/or discharge cycles.
You hear about the fires in the news once in a while, may be once a year or so. A few years ago there was famous Sony recall, safety related. Within last 12 months there was Dell laptop packs recall. Some of the problems are related to the defective protection circuitry, some to the actual cell defects. When it does happen, it is bad. Li is inherently dangerous flammable chemistry, that is why all the extra protection circuit goes into every LiIon pack.

Thank you both. The prospect of blowing $10 on a battery that winds up not holding a charge doesn't faze me (big deal, throw it away). But if it destroys a valuable camera, that's a whole different matter entirely.

News to me
 

I've never heard of any such thing. I know Sony stopped making their BP-L90 v-mount battery because fo airline restrictions on lithium (yeah, you're gonna make a hydrogen bomb), but seriously, never a story about batteries (apart from car batteries) exploding. Can you give an example?

Here is the latest one, about 2 months old:

"Dell recalls batteries from 22,000 laptops

December 16, 2005

BOSTON (Reuters) - Dell Inc. <DELL.O> said on Friday that it is recalling batteries installed in some laptop computers it sold in the United States over the past year, citing an overheating problem with potential to pose a fire risk.

Consumers can contact Dell at (866)-342-0011 or http://www.dellbatteryprogram.com/ to see if their laptops are among those affected by the recall.

No injuries have been reported, though Dell said it has learned of three incidents that caused damage to the furniture and personal effects of its customers.

The batteries were installed in some 22,000 laptops that Dell sold from October 2004 to October 2005.

The company shipped more than 5.6 million computers in the United States during the third quarter of this year, according to an estimate from market research firm IDC. "

That's heartwarming.

Unfortunately, it doesn't say what causes the overheating, what kind of batteries are involved, etc. I don't see how this relates to the current discussion.

Well, I'm glad it's not about camcorder batteries, and I don't own a Dell ...LOL.

Restrictions for air-freight of dangerous Li-Ion batteries
 

Robert, not that particular case. But do you know there are restrictions onboard aircrafts how many or how big Li-Ion camera battery you are allowed to bring with you or ship onboard aircrafts? Only about 8 g Li is allowed! However, this means quite a big 90 Wh 14.4 V battery is right under the limit for shipment.
The fines are very heavy if you break this and it gets attention.

That's because these batteries are potentially unstable if they are dropped or heats up. Anton Bauer has written about this here:

http://www.antonbauer.com/li_ion_trans_faqs.htm

"Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries whose equivalent lithium content exceeds 8 g. per battery must be shipped as a "Class 9 miscellaneous hazardous material"."

"Passengers can also carry no more than two lithium ion batteries that contain more than 8 gr. of equivalent lithium content per battery."

So, there is a safety issue with Li-Ion batteries and it does not only apply to cheap batteries.

Not very long ago Apple Computer had to make an emergency stop and put in NiMh batteries in their laptops despite the boxes and brochures were already printed saying it contained Li-Ion batteries! Still they have issues about recalling battery batches.

So, don't drop them and make sure they cannot become short circuited if you lay them around in bags etc. /Johan

RC model plane charger fine to monitor batteries
 

Hey, you will get a hint how you could easily test all rechargable batteries? Buy one advanced charger for RC-models, car or aircraft with electric motor. It costs probably around USD 150 or so.

Mine is called Triton and will charge and discharge NiCd, NiMH, Pb and Li-Ion cells or blocks in many various sizes. It has a great display showing time, voltage, Ah and more. It runs from a car battery or you need a 12 V power supply.

You can program a charging cycle for a certain charge and another discharge, for instance 500 mA charge and 1000 mA discharge. It will discharge until it reaches a presetable voltage and then alarm and stop. Then you could easily see how many mAh you got out of it. Much better than running down your expensive video head.

I use this charger all the time to check my cells. At least twice a year or so I put them to test then I write the actual capacity on the battery. Very nice when I have plenty of R6 cells. I just combine some of them with similar real capacity when I need power to something.

When talking different batteries I still not have enough experience from the Li-Ion types.

Many modern NiMH cells, for instance R6 size, are overrated and will not give you their advertized capacity. My Panasonics, for instance, perform about 1750 mAh but are labeled min. 1900 mAh. They are two years old.

About NiCd cells: I had R20 Berec cells from 1984 which I have used to run a Nagra taperecorder. Despite much abuse they still gave 85 % of its rated capacity after 20 years!! That I would say are quality batteries! But hear now, I bought them used at that time!!! Unfortunately my kids have used the cells in their torches forgetting to turn it off so they killed them recently.

Other unknown or cheap brands have worked fine for years, Sunrise especially. And I have had quality brands (GP, Varta) where one cell in a pack of 6 gave up within half a year without any bad handling.

Unfortunately, the more cells there are in a package, the more likely the chance is one cell will fail early. So these modern hermetic sealed batteries are bad to us because you cannot exchange that faulty cell, at least not easily. Instead you have to dispose the whole pack.

I have also seen that some exercise is good for the battery, especially the NiCd. It can gain capacity. Battery charging is scientific these days.

Good luck everybody with your battery! /Johan