I don't know Tom. If I may interject into this discussion:

Customers usually hire each of us based on our shooting and editing style. Mark's customers expect what he does, and in fact that is why they hire him. His lens choices are part of the deal that they expect.

Your customers expect something different and is why you're hired much of the time. Same for me.

I made a photomontage and used an aged film effect and it turned out really beautifully. I tweaked it for just the right amount scratches (minimal), sepia, etc. and was certain the customer would love it. After all, I did a great job!

The customer freaked out in my living room when she watched it.

I explained that it was done on purpose (she thought there was somethin wrong with it) and then I told her it was a big thing on the coasts that people pay hundreds of dollars extra for (a bit of a white lie) and after awhile she decided she liked it after all. Luckily the photomontage was a huge hit and actually brought me several jobs in quick succession.

The point is she didn't expect it based on samples she had seen.

The customers vote with their pocketbooks anyway, and if Mark's success is any indication then apparently his style is pretty effective.

Slightly off topic, I personnally do not care for many aspects of cinematic style wedding videos for several reasons, but my feelings on the matter are unimportant to those that like it. The highest paid videographers in this area shoot some version of it, and I don't care for much of it, but there you are.

could anybody confirm how this works as I'm considering buying this cam but this worries me.

How many minutes is the 4gb limit in highest quality?
Also does it require a user action to start the next clip (like canon dslr's) or does it automatically resume recording.

Does it really lose video between ending one clip and (hopefully automatically) starting the next? If so how much time is lost?

Many thanks

It would help if you told us which camera you were talking about, but fear not - all camcorders film seamlessly, continuously, there'll be no glitches, lost frames, sync loss - all will be well. Just follow the instructions.

sorry I thought this thread was specifically about the HMC150. I meant that one.

So there is no break when the 4gb file is reached?

If there is, can anybody say what time in terms of minutes that break occurs at?

There is no file break as far as we are concerned. If you dig into the folder structure you may see it divided but it's transparent one converted. I've recorded for 2.5 hours without stopping and when L&T in fcp saw it, it was one big chunk of video. This is a proper video camera, not a dslr.

Back to OP, I've used the 150 and fx1 side by side and while they cut together pretty well, the panny is a much better camera. Picture quality is better and most cameras in this range are not great in low light but to me the panny had a bit less noise. Panny ergonomics are fantastic and the lens is wide enough to not need an adapter...well maybe a tele adapter! Quirks with the 150 are mentioned all over the forum but the biggest to me is the LCD and viewfinder. They are not acceptable. I've edited quite a bit of footage from the xh-a1 too and it's in the same league. I haven't shot with it though.

The break is a bit of a hassle, as I recall...but it's like everything else with AVCHD.

The hmc-150 is 5 (I'm guessing) years newer than than the FX1. Put the HMC 150 next to it's contemporary like the Z1 or FX1000 and the differences are still there, but there are many who prefer the FX1000 or Z1 (and vice versa, of course.)

I just received a wedding shot with the HMC150. I have to admit the church footage was so dark it almost seems unusable to me. Maybe the guy didn't know his camera, I don't know.

Jeff the reason I was comparing with the old FX1's is thats what I'm used to using.
I'm sort of torn between the newer sony (FX1000 or Z5U) and the HMC100 but wanted to make 100% sure that if I did go for the Panny, I wouldnt get it and say 'whoa this low light performance is actually WORSE than what I'm used to...'

that would be a disaster...

I'm having a tough time finding a second hand HMC150. I thought this might be best to get used to it without spending too much on something i MAY hate and end up selling 4 weeks later...

My single biggest issue with the Panny is the LCD and the fact that the footage is AVCHD. Otherwise the cam can deliver some nice images.

BTW, there was a used FX1000 here in the classifieds for $2500...nice deal if the cam is in good shape.

Jeff,

What don't you like about the LCD?

Although it seems demanding and on my GH1 I occasionally get horrible glitches on the final exported product what are your issues with AVCHD?

David, I edited my previous comment to be clearer.

I shoot lots of two and three cam projects...I don't have time to convert the footage. I also still deliver /shoot mostly SD widescreen, and the 150 has no SD option.

The view screen (I don't use viewfinder) really stinks (just my opinion) It looked terrible to me, and was small.

I defended the 150 for awhile, but all in all with the ridiculously horrible onboard mic (worst I've heard) I can't see it as viable for my purposes.

There is less grain with the 150 when gain is turned up, so that is a help.

I very much wanted to like the camera, but it just didn't work out.

Let me put it this way...if you have like your FX1, you'll love the FX1000. Compared to the FX1000 I ended up never wanting to see a HMC 150 again. Just my experience. Others will feel differently.

I also found it was too lightweight, and felt like a cheap plastic toy. It wasn't cheap, but felt like it. For handheld work it was impossible to keep smooth, as it didn't have enough weight.

If you buy a 150 and don't ever use the FX1000 or Z5, you'll be happy as you won't know any different.

I'll be a troublemaker and say the 150 was nice until I got into the dslr thing and then people started sending me ex1 footage to cut with the 150 and I realized that I needed to step it up a notch. (I like the EX1r and EX1 but like the XF300 better)

If you can save up a bit more, you could get into a used ex1 which puts you in a different league. The fact you can use SD cards in an adapter makes it affordable.
Just my 2 cents!

And the LCD on the 150 is terrible...in fact all the Panasonic cams I've used (200, 170, 40) have been less than adequate.

The 1/3" chips of the EX1 are nice, but for a comparable price the new Panasonic might be a better investment. I can't wait to hear about it when it hits.

1 1/3" chip. DSLR quality in a camcorder body

Panasonic AG-AF100 Micro 4/3 Pro HD Camcorder DEPOSIT :: Compact HD Cameras :: Cameras :: Equipment Sales :: Abel Cine Tech

Im guessing you meant 1/2" chips in the ex. Good call on the af100... Forgot about that one! I think with lenses though it's gonna be the price of a new EX1r or my Canon. (ok checked your links and it's a lot more with lenses!)
I saw a used ex1 with goodies for $4k on this very forum. That's a heck of a deal! Much better than $3k for the 150 and then investing in a monitor so you can actually see what your shooting! (sorry...rant over!)

Whenever I've used the Panasonic 151 I've rather liked the side screen but have never liked the feeling of wibbly-wobbly fragility in the hinge. The image might be rather crude looking (I can literally count the dots) but it's a decent size and the 4:3 aspect ratio allows lots of the meta data to lie outside the 16:9 letter-boxed picture area. The font used for this data is bold enough for you to read as you're running with the camera to the next location.

Contrast this to my NX5's top screen. This is a physically smaller, far higher resolution screen. Great for Sock-Lupe users, but who on earth needs such hi-rez in a screen 2½" across? On top of that the screen is dark, pretty useless in sunlight, gets covered in fingerprints and the tiny font means you have to hold the cam rock steady and squint at the minuscule alphanumerics. The Z5 was never like this - what's happening, brother?

tom.

damn... first negative points ive read about the HMC150 and now I'm back to square one (although i definitely appreciate your thoughts) The thing is the FX1000 is mini DV isnt it? I really want to go tapeless as I'm sick of drop outs and glitches.

This is why I looked at the Z5U as with the memory recording unit I could record to CF. However minute per GB when compared to the HMC150 means I'll be forever changing cards (as often as I used to change tape) so the SD card option really stood out for me.

Up until recently I was dead set on an AF101, however I'm worried about using the DSLR lenses and narrow DOF all the time. Especially when I pass the cam over to my less experienced operators.

I thought to myself, I have a 60d and a GH13 so why not just use those to get the DSLR type of footage when required and then get a couple of proper 'camcorders' to point and shoot.

I sort of sold myself on that 2x HMC150 and 1x DSLR over the shoulder for when required. Fair enough I may end up loving the DSLR footage so much that it becomes my main cam and I sell a HMC150.

However now I'm unsure on the 150. I'd love to hear some peoples opinions on other cameras up to about £3500 however I dont want to spend too much in case I end up going to DSLR after using it for a while and £3500 is too much for a 2nd cam.

I have quite a few lenses that would work well with the GH1 and indeed the AF101 but if I got an AF101 I'd then STILL need this 2nd more camcorder like camera... which I'd love you to suggest to me now!

Running out of time until the new wedding season :(

Important things for me:

- Good low light performance
- SD or SD & Tape
- decent internal mic
- 25p and ideally a 50p 720 or 1080 mode for slow mo.
- 2x XLR inputs
- 2 hot shoe's or a mic clamp and one hot shoe (to use external mic and wireless receiver)
- Would far prefer 3CCD instead of CMOS due to the rolling shutter flash thing (lots of flashes at weddings)

I'd love to hear your thoughts guys.

yes yes and yes,
I shoot wedding mostly, talking HD I started with Z1, then with HX A1, now with EX1, and I am changing it only to 2/3", DSLRs have their own place in the production, but I am not comfortable to shoot an event without at least one full featured video camera,
David, you won't have any regrets if you could stretch your budget and get EX1R, it has all the points (except CCD) you outlined. Z5/7 is not the same, and to my eye not even close to EX1 in dark churches/receptions. Would be great if you could rent/borrow EX1x for a day and do your tests, you'll see what a difference between 1/3" and 1/2".
best!

EX1 is certainly better than everything else we've discussed...great cam if you can manage it.

i totally agree. Ideally I'd like 2 proper video cameras and a DSLR then after a wedding season if the DSLR is getting a lot of use I'd sell the 2nd video camera and make the DSLR my main cam.

Thanks for your suggestion of the EX1. I could stretch to the price if I am certain what I'm buying is the right thing.

So the EX1 records onto SD card. Does it fit about the same amount of data on it as the HMC150? What are the main advantages other than better low light? The disadvantages I can see are CMOS and heavier than the HMC150. I think I'm right in saying that like the 150 it only does 50p in 720 mode which is nto as good as the 1080 50p (I think the AF101 will do this?) but I'm soon going to do some tests between 720 and 1080 footage. 95% of my finished products are online or DVD so I think that 720 might be a better solution. Does it use up less space on the memory card?

Really appreciate the suggestion and will certainly research a lot more.

David, the camera for you is the one that you can afford and that gets the job done.

EX1 is a fine camera, but the batteries and cards are quite expensive. Not an inexpensive camera to outfit. The one wedding videographer in my area that used them is out of business.

In the wedding market where I am located, mainstream operator are using a Sony FX1, Z1, FX1000, the Panasonic HMC150.

There are plenty of low budget operators still using VX2100 and PD170s, and XL2, etc.

I have the benefit of knowing many other guys in the market, so there is no mystery to me what is best for me to buy. Sensible choices for you are really quite limited.

All footage uses same amout of space on card.

ok well when you consider i have 20 batteries for my FX1's and that an EX1 2nd hand is still double the price of a new HMC151 I think I'm going to rule it out.

I can't get over the fact that I really like DSLR footage but I want a nice simple camera in the background too. If I spend all of my money on that camera then I'm going to limit myself when it comes to the DSLR thing.

I think the HMC151 (/2/3/4/whatever it is!) is the one for me.

The only point I'm still want to clarify is when the camera goes over 4gb and creates a new file, will my NLE (premiere pro cs4/cs5 on pc) recognise this and join them back together again with absolutely no gap.

I should probably test edit some raw footage anyway to see how my pc handles as I was considering an upgrade as its pretty sluggish with GH1 (hacked) footage so I'd imagine this will be as difficult to edit.

If you have 20 batteries for your FX1, I thought you were going to say your logical choice would be a Z1.

Your Panasonic will not even come close to matching your FX1s, if that is a consideration.

If you jump into AVCHD enjoy. I found it to be a stupid mess, but your experience might be better.

I don't think you will be satisfied until you try the 150. The 4GB thing is something you can deal with, Panasonic has software for that I believe.

to be honest about 7 or 8 of those need binning and the others can be bundled with the FX1's when I sell so I'm not too worried. I wont have 4 cams anymore so will need half as many batteries.


In what way?

David,

Just thought I would add a few comments to support the HMC150.

My team shoot 4 cam stage event video (always in poor light) with an HMC150, HMC40, XHA1, and Sony Z5.

Viewfinder: For run and gun, the HMC150 viewfinder is just fine for shot framing, and the autofocus is good enough to rely on. For tripod use, I just love the viewfinder because it displays the waveform monitor full time. I use a SmallHD DP1 or DP6 for shot framing (mounted to the tripod).

4 Gig Limit: No big deal. This is true for every digital format recording to a fat32 file system memory card. The key is how your editing software handles it. Assume will not be a problem for Adobe, but I can only confirm no problem for Avid MC5.

Quality: I have multicam edited more that 12 hours of these 4 cams pointed at the same targets. The HMC150 provides the greatest amount of excellent footage. The XHA1 and Z5 are comparable, and the HMC40 sometimes approaches the HMC150 if there is enough light. Most of the time the HMC150 and Z5 are similar, but when one stands out, it is always the HMC150, sharp and great color.

Low Light: The HMC150, Z5, and XHA1 are in the same ballpark at normal gain. At high gain the Z5 is poor, XHA1 better, HMC150 best. Also the HMC150 waveform monitor is wonderful to maximize tricky lighting conditions...which is most of the time.

Also, I'm going to try DSLR video soon with a Nikon D7000, but you will never see my HMC150 for sale.

thanks very much Terry, that's great new to hear. 95% of what i read about the HMC150 is good so you can't really beat that.

I downloaded some raw HMC150 footage today and I'm very impressed for the price, I think its just what I'm after.

after receiving my HMC150 one interesting thing I found compared to the FX1 is that I can use 1/25 shutter if desperate for light.

On the FX1 it would be way too slow and the jitter/blur etc made it unusable. Although I've only tested very very quickly, it seems that 1/25 is actually useable on the HMC150.

Does this sound right?

It doesn't sound right at all. 1/25th sec is that shutter speed regardless of the capture - Video8, DV or AVCHD. You'll get exactly the same image blur with either camera and I've never found this to be a viable option - upping the gain is always more acceptable (unless, of course, you're shooting motionless objects with a stationery camera).

tom.

Agree w/ Tom
 

I agree with Tom. You never want to mess with the shutter speed unless it's the very last resort.

You probably tested it on a still object, little to no motion. If you had tried that slow shutter speed under normal circumstances it would have been quite blurry. If you are that desperate for light you'll need more light or gain as has been said. The 150 does high gain with relatively little grain, that is one of it's best qualities.

yeah i did notice how good the gain looks when doing some tests yesterday. However I'm still convinced that the FX1 is noticeably more jumpy (not really blur - admit thats the same, but i'd only use this to film virtually stationary cut aways during dark wedding speeches) than the HMC150.

I did some test footage so perhaps when i cut it together and look at it on the big screen I'll notice that its not as acceptable as I thought it was.

I couldn't work out why it would be any difference as I know 1/25th is 1/25th but I was unsure of whether the progressive vs interlaced thing came into it but I assume not...

I'll have a look at the footage tonight.

The HMC150 is noticeably better (on 1/50th) than the FX1 so I'm happy in that regard. What I dislike about the HMC150 is the noisy and slow servo zoom and also the fact that on the FX1 I used to rack focus quite a lot but when I try to get the hugely out of focus shot on the HMc150 before pulling focus, I find I don't get anywhere near as out of focus and it also takes 4 or 5 revolutions of the focus ring to sometimes get focus. It's so frustrating! I also wish cameras enabled focus assist whilst recording)

Also seems to be quite a bit of hiss on the internal mic of the HMC150. I'll obviously rarely use it but is this normal? I had the audio turned up to about 6 if I remember right.

The onboard audio on your camera is of the lowest quality. Yes what you hear is normal. You must use a shotgun if you need quality audio with that camera.

The Gain
 

I was also quite impressed with the gain function on the HMC150 when I got mine. I like to use the Letus Extreme 35mm Adaptor and there are times when I need the gain cranked up a little to compensate for the loss of light that the adaptor causes. The gain does a great job of not causing any noticeable grain effect when I use it. Although, using more lights on the subject is of course my choice to compensate when applicable.

David - differential focus should be just as easy to obtain with the Panasonic as it is with the FX1 as both use 1"/3 chips. The FX1 has a 54mm focal length as against the 150's 51mm, so there's little difference there - especially when lens build tolerances are taken into account.

The 150 does indeed have focus assist, but it's a disabled feature in the FX1 (the Z1 has it). Interestingly Panasonic has never made great play on this - they seem to prefer the fact that you can enlarge (zoom in on) the view, whereas proper focus assist is where - while you're in auto focus - you can tell the camera to focus on the fore or the background.

tom.

The built in mic is junk. The mic that most ENG style shooters like for this camera is this one:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/495302-REG/Audio_Technica_AT875R_AT875_Short_Condenser_Shotgun.html

I've owned my HMC-150 for almost 2 years now, and I absolutely love it. It's definitely worth spending time to learn how to create custom Scene settings, as these can greatly change the look of your image, especially when it comes to image noise.

thanks for the replies everyone.

I have a sennheiser ME66 currently and I was worried it would be a bit long but I have fitted it and it doesnt appear visible in the viewfinder so would you recommend this mic? The thing I do like about it is that it is very directional which is good for wedding speeches in a noisy environment (yes I do use portable recorders as well but I like a decent back up audio just in case)

With my FX1 there is noticeably less hiss using the onboard mic. When filming for example a brides morning prep I dont use much if any of the audio thats why I prefer the light camera and more moveability (have I just invented that word!? sorry...) that having no shotgun gives so I did hope for a slightly better onboard mic. However i have still barely used the HMC150.

The main issue really is this focus ring.
I appreciate your input Tom and would love to know more as I am definite that if I turn the ring 180 degrees with the iris open on the FX1 I get a massively out of focus picture which I can then pull back in and I like the look. When i do this with the HMC150 there is barely any change in the picture... in order to get a similar result (still not anywhere near as out of focus) I need to turn it 360 degrees maybe 5 times....

If this does sound wrong I will do a more scientific test later today and maybe post 2 clips to vimeo to highlight what I mean.

That said, I bought the camera for 3 main reasons... wide filed of view, good low light performance and tapeless workflow, all of which I'm really happy with. (would have loved to have had a longer zoom range than the FX1 as well a wider field of view but I suppose I can't have everything!)

The ME66 is a beautiful mic and perfect for the job, but it'll need a good wind-shield outdoors and a good suspension system to isolate it from the HMC. Do some tests in quiet surroundings and listen for any grumbles and rumbles on the audio with the mic in the HMC's mic holder.

I now see you're not talking about differential focus Dave, you're talking about starting a shot way out of focus and pulling it into focus. With my FX1 I've been filming a daisy on the lawn in big close-up, then simply flicked the focus lever down to the infinity mark, which snaps the focus to the bride and groom over there by the trees. This should work well on the Panasonic too.

Maybe your, 'I need to turn it 360 degrees maybe 5 times' means you're starting at infinity, whereas you should start from closeup for the greatest pull-focus effect.

tom.

hi Tom thanks for the quick reply.
I do have a windshield and rode suspension system for the mic which works fantastically on my FX1. The 'rubber band' style suspension thing really is the best money I've spent on camera gear!

The only issue is that when filming a wedding ceremony I like to use the wireless mic receiver in the hot shoe (my Zoom H1 and Audio Technika lav mic really doesnt cut it for a ceremony, but ok for speeches) and I therefore need to put the shotgun in the circular holder attached to the camera. I'll do as you suggest and listen to the handling noise as this was a major issue on my FX1 hence buying the suspension holder.

I just did a quick test with the focus and when zoomed in I get a blurrier out of focus image which I suppose is expected as focal length affects this as I understand it. It isn't as different as I thought to pull back into focus on the HMC150 (maybe a 180 degree turn) compared to the FX1 (maybe 90 degrees)

However... when zoomed fully out (possibly because the HMC150 zooms out so much wider) the out of focus shot is much blurrier on the FX1 than the HMC150. Is this down to focal length again? This is when I notice the maybe 360 degree rotation required to pull focus (not 5 times.. that was a bit dramatic) compared to the 180 degrees on the FX1.

This is an issue as I cant physically rotate the ring 360 degrees without letting go and repositioning my grip. Therefore it takes longer to pull focus and it doesnt look as smooth.

i can only assume this is down to the wider lens?

Yes, the 28mm equiv of the 150 is a lot wider than the 32.5 mm of the FX1, but dof with both cameras will be HUGE at the wide end of the zoom, whatever the aperture or whatever the focused distance. You have to do these pull focus shots at longer focal lengths.

You could avoid the manual ring turning by switching the cam to manual focus, turning the ring to closest focus, then to pull focus you just slide the switch up into the auto-focus position. The camera then does all the 'ring turning' for you, though maybe too quickly for artistic merit.

Agree, a mic suspension mount is so important. I use the Rycote Softie with my 66 and have that in the hot shoe on my NX5 and have a second shoe mount for the radio receiver. I don't use Sony's mic holder at all.

I presumne it's a 151 you've got, not a 150, right?

tom.

Tom,

Yes I've got the 151.

I just thought, I have a 2nd thread on the handle dont I? Could I add another hot shoe there to use the suspension as well as mounting the wireless receiver?

Do you happen to know how gain equates to ISO so that I can do some low light tests at the same gain settings between the HMC150 and my DSLR? I tried yesterday but I was just guessing that 12db matched 1000iso etc and its pointless unless I get the facts first.

You could use that handle-mounted thread to hold another shoe but I've found the handle is far more important to be used as a handle for any run 'n' gun work.

This 'what's my camcorder's ISO?' question keeps cropping up and I've really no idea why. All manufacturers place zero gain as a compromise between us all thinking the cam's no good in the gloom to us thinking 0dB's a bit grainy, isn't it?... and dialing in -6dB.

Why do you need the ISO facts on your 151? You won't be using it with electronic flash.

tom.

I mean in order to compare my GH1 with the HMC151 in extreme low light where obviously gain/iso will be required. I suppose I could keep upping them until I see grain but it'd be handy to know where the level of gain is 'meant' to match if that makes sense.

I do mainly tripod stuff but the only time I would need the 2nd shoe would be during a wedding ceremony so I think the handle hotshoe might be the solution to keeping my suspension mount.

You can't dial in minus db gain on the HMC151 can you? Does it just go 0db-12db?

Do you think the 12db is adding as much digital gain to the picture as 12db on the FX1 or would the 151's 12db match the 18db gain on the FX1 better? I know the 151 would look considerably better on 12db than the FX1 on 18db but is that just because it's applying less gain?