Help With Purchase Decision--TRV900 vs PV-DV953?
 

Hi All
I've been lurking here for quite a while now, soaking up as much information as I can...it's been great. But in all of the valuable, sometimes confusing and sometimes even contradictory things I've read, I haven't found what I need to know...here's the deal:

I'm looking at buying either a used TRV900 or a new PV-DV953. They are both at about the same price point, about as much as i can spend. I will be using them for personal projects; small films and documentary pieces, mostly for my own enjoyment. I've used a number of cams in the past year, including a Sony PDX-10. I would like your learned opinions about the 900 vs. the 953, though. I haven't seen a true head-to-head comparison of their respective picture qualities. Some of the many links I've pursued have comparison pages, but none seem to compare these two units side-by-side.


Here's what I think I know:

That the TRV900 has a slightly better low-light capability than the 953. True?

That maybe (I have to stress the 'maybe' here; I really don't know this) the 953 has a nicer picture quality in a normal, well-lit scene. Slightly richer color, better sharpness, etc. Is this true?

That the TRV900 has a better manual control section when it comes to audio. I believe the user can control both track levels independantly in the 900, where the 953 only allows the user to control a combination of both tracks, simultaneously. That is not as good a solution for me, given the different sensitivities of the different mics I'd be employing. I'd be using a Beachtek adapter with either one. Is this true?

Low-light ability seems to be a sort of Holy Grail for DV cams; I think it does matter, but in everyday usage, I'd probably be shooting in good light--outdoors under the sun, or a well-lit interior. I'd make sure of that. Reviews seem to stress the low-light thing, and I'm not totally convinced of it's importance to me, overall. A really nice image quality in well-lit scenes is more important to me, I think.

So aside for the new-ness of a 953, and the warranty it'll have, etc. versus a used TRV900 (probably off of eBay, been looking for a while now--some nice ones out there!) with a questionable past and no warranty, does the Pannasonic have a better image quality or not?

Tough decision here. I appreciate any help you can offer. And no, telling me to get a DVX100, VX2000, or a PD150 or PDX-10, (or some great camera with a Japanese menu) is not going to help me, sad to say... ;^)

Thanks a bunch!
Chris

You've sort of answered your own questions. Yes, the TRV900 has more/some better controls. The PV-DV953 video quality is a lot better (less noise, better color saturation and higher resolution). Yes, the TRV900 is better with "lower light." Yes, you can use a Beachtek with either cam. The TRV900 is probably built better in some ways, in other ways it is not. Example: iris.

The GS100 seems to be a bit better than the PV-DV953, including slightly better "lower light." (You just have to deal with some of the Japanese.)

Thanks Frank. The trouble with "answering your own questions" is that you're never really sure that you have done it--it's a process carried out in a vacuum. That's why I posted, and why I appreciate the feedback.

For instance, I don't have the expertise to say "The PV-DV953 video quality is a lot better..." because I've never seen proof, just read that it *might* be. It's good to hear that it's even better than I thought it might be, since you characterize it as "a lot better".

One question that I haven't answered for myself, though: Is it true that the manual audio controls of the 953 deals with both channels (combined)at the same time?

Also--is the 900 a lot better with low light, or just a little bit better?

I wish I had the guts to deal with the GS100 (I don't)--or better yet, I wish that Panasonic would release a version here in the states, soon, without dumbing it down. I bet a bunch of people would buy one, myself included!

Chris

Chris, I'm sure you are aware of the 950 being the newer version of the 900. Just to point out that I have compared the 950 with the 900 and MX500 (953 equivalent) and I like the 900 best, followed by 500 then 950, talking about captured video in dimmer lighting. Purely subjective but that's my observations to share with you.

Hi Yow Cheong,

Noticed you are also the new NV-GS100K owner, can you also compare the MX500, TRV950 and GS100K?

Hopefully, I am not off the topic.

Thanks
Wei

I would say a lot better, but not as good as some 1 chip cams or the VX2000.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I still have to make the decision myself, unfortuantaely--maybe if I ponder some more, I'll delay until such a time as a camera appears on the market with everything I need and want--for about $1000.

Maybe not... ;^) I'll probably go for the 900 in the meantime. Ask me again in 20 minutes and I might answer differently...

Thanks again!
Chris

Nothing wrong with the TRV900---great cam, though I prefer the black mambo version (PD100A).

A used cam over a new cam?

I'll take a new cam ANYDAY!

I wholeheartedly agree with Tommy; there are more than enough things to worry about as it is; why bring another big variable in like 'used' into it?

Even with the difference in capabilities- new trumps used, every time.

<<<-- Originally posted by Wei Jen MD : Hi Yow Cheong,

Noticed you are also the new NV-GS100K owner, can you also compare the MX500, TRV950 and GS100K?

Hopefully, I am not off the topic.

Thanks
Wei -->>>

To Wei Jen,

Please call me YowCH for short, or Cheong Hoe (Yow is the family name).

I do not use the GS100k (and most likely never) considering that it is only NTSC based on the latest news. Being in Singapore, it has to be PAL.

"I'll take a new cam ANYDAY!" Tommy, I think most people would--if they could afford it, and get some of the features they feel they need.

"I wholeheartedly agree with Tommy; there are more than enough things to worry about as it is; why bring another big variable in like 'used' into it?" Charlie, you're right, too: You do need to "worry" about a used cam a bit. And ask questions, and judge the veracity of the answers you get. It's the price you pay for getting a usable camera within your price range.

And of course, new cameras are not immune from problems, right out of the box. Just recently there was the post by Ardash about a new 953 malfunctioning. Oddly, though the TRV900 is discontued at this point, there are examples of it out there that are pretty much pristine; people bought one and never got around to using it much (go figure that one out!)

Some of the TRV900s I've looked at, and almost bought (circumstances beyond my control prevented it, unforunately) have been sold by people from this forum. I trust them more than some others, simply because they are here. That shows me an interest, and a knowledge of issues, that makes me worry less about how they have treated their cameras, and how honest they are about the mileage on them. There are people who will read this that got their first cam through someone else here--used. Some of them no doubt, will have sad stories--but the majority will have been pleased with their purchases, I'll bet.

As a matter of fact, all the cams I've used--the PDX-10, the PD150, a cheap JVC and a cheap Panny--were all the property of my local community college, and so, (well) used. They've been absolutely fine. And let's not forget rentals. Renting A/V equipment is a big business, and all of that equipment is used, too. You just buy a it for a short time...it's a little different, but you get the point. In fact, any camera that anyone is currently using is a "used" camera--and these are cameras that we know and trust and dearly love. (well, some of them...)

As Frank said, the TRV900 is a great cam. The fact that it sat on a shelf in someone else's home for a while and then took a trip in a box to me shouldn't change that. I personally can't understand wanting to buy something that doesn't fit my needs or budget simply because it is new. So for me, the "difference in capabilities" is a deciding point of consideration.

Presumably, there are those out there (I count myself among them) who treat their cameras well and gently, and aren't liars when it comes time to sell them. Some got tired of video and want to liquidate, some want to step up to a pricier camera. Some thought they'd actually *like* shooting weddings ;^)

I think if you are patient and careful and do your research, and use common sense, you can make out just fine.

Chris

There's a gal who lives just a few blocks from me who is known as quite the film maker---she always seems to win awards. She used the DVCAM version of the TRV900 and had the footage copied to film. Her doc/movie was called, "Fix." It was playing in movie houses across Canada about 7 months ago. So, the TRV900 should be good enough, I would think.

The trv900 is an EXCELLENT camera. We had TWO in our family. My brother kept his and I sold mine.

The one I had I found on ebay and the seller stated that it was hardly even touched. After two phone conversations I chose the BIN price... it was sitting at $500 and the BIN was $1325. I checked his feedback too, I should mention. He sold Nikon F5's and other very high-end items so I felt little "risk". The camera came and it was EXACTLY as he stated. It looked like it had never been out of the box before... absolutely perfect!

I used it for about 6 weeks before I decided to just get a professional camera after-all. That one is new. There was nothing wrong with the trv900 and I EASILY sold it for what I'd paid... all I lost was shipping and I got to use the camera for 6 weeks. I probably could have sold it this FALL for the same price.

I've bought TONS of stuff used and so far I've been VERY happy. Just use common-sense when you buy used. It's simple. Everything I've bought is pro-caliber and the only reason I could afford it was 'cause it was used.

Take your used trv900 and compare it to ANYTHING in that price range that's new... it will BLOW it away. Depth of field comes from the lens and the ccds... the trv900 has a big lens (52mm thread) with 1/4" ccds... NOT a 37mm lens and 1/5" ccds... read bealecorner.com and you decide on that for yourself...

Don't be afraid of used... just be smart. I had people urging me to go with a new brand "S" wireless for around $500 and I ended up going with a beat up Lectrosonics for the same price... You wouldn't believe the difference unless you heard it for yourself.

Just my experience and my .02

Good news for you guys purchasing cams on eBay and I definitely agree common sense plays a big part.

Of course STOLEN ACCOUNTS is the latest rage on eBay and its a lot easier than you think. They simply send out an email that looks official and asks for your username/password for email and eBay and setup quick auctions. I couldn't believe how legitimate these emails looked until my own mother received one. She actually contemplated filling it out but had second thoughts.



I just ordered a PDX10 from B&H for $1850 delivered and thats a better deal than can usually be found on eBay. Not to mention they are Sony factory authorized Internet sellers which means a lot to me.

BTW - I bid and won two camcorders on eBay.

1. JVC GR-DVL9000U - Seller had no idea about burnt out pixel on the CCD - refunded

2. DCR-VX2000 - Seller had stolen account with high positive feedback with high-end electronics. He backed out when I mentioned escrow and a good thing because he took bidders for over $60k on a weekend selling spree.

I'll stick to selling on eBay. :)

Doesn't the PD100A have a wider lens or field of view that the TRV900? I seem to recall that but I'm not sure if this is true. Anyways, the controls on the TRV900 are very good, even has the low shutter settings. Tom mentioned it has a 5 blade iris which he thinks is better.

The field of view is good with the MX300 as well, plus frame mode to boot. No slow shutter speeds, though. That's why I'd rather pay Allan wednesday for a GS100 today.

The TRV900 is missing 70 horizontal lines of resolution; the MX300/350 is missing only 40. The MX5000 and black mamba, well, that's another storey. Click here:

http://www.dvfreak.com/mx5000ad.jpg

I had a big problem too some years back. I couldn't afford a VX2000 and couldn't decide between the TRV900 and MX300. (The PD100A was too much money.) So I went with the MX300. I'd rather have a MX5000 today, than spend a year's salary on something that'll be obsolete tomorrow. But if it were tomorrow today, I'd learn Japanese and get myself a black mamba.

I ran out of coffee last night. :(


-------------------------------------
Twinkie, breakfast of champions

Wow, Chris- you're even almost as long-winded than I am; at this rate, we'll be out of New Boot status late in 2004!

""I'll take a new cam ANYDAY!" Tommy, I think most people would--if they could afford it, and get some of the features they feel they need.

"I wholeheartedly agree with Tommy; there are more than enough things to worry about as it is; why bring another big variable in like 'used' into it?" Charlie, you're right, too: You do need to "worry" about a used cam a bit. And ask questions, and judge the veracity of the answers you get. It's the price you pay for getting a usable camera within your price range."

Um, Chris- I've been buying used cams (although far from exclusively), with nary a bad one for many years, from 16mm to 35mm to 1 CCD to 3 CCDs, and, although I also subscribe to, and am quite adept at the procedure for successfully purchasing a used cam that you outline in your rather condescending post, I don't think it's the right deal for many people. Getting a refund or exchange on a bad one is actually paramount when you get such a cam from a seller. The seller's got to be reliably accountable for a prompt and professional remedy; most on eBay and the majority of other sellers of used DVcams are not. Adorama's one, and a local dealer or any trusted 3rd party whom you can hold accountable, without any wasted time/stress, is the only way to go, IMO, when purchasing used.

That said, and knowing the the TRV series VERY well, I'd say that it's not worth the risk for you to buy a used 900 when you can get a new, warranteed 953 instead. At the end of the day, the differences in footage and feature/build quality, despite all the 1/4" vs 1/6", etc. talk, are not enough to justify going used, unless the seller meets the above (fairly difficult to find) standard, IMO, and even then, the lack of a warranty, etc. is a definite consideration in favor of a new 953.

"And of course, new cameras are not immune from problems, right out of the box. Just recently there was the post by Ardash about a new 953 malfunctioning. Oddly, though the TRV900 is discontued at this point, there are examples of it out there that are pretty much pristine; people bought one and never got around to using it much (go figure that one out!)"

Yeah, that's why most folks buy new- so they can get a prompt exchange/refund from a dealer with the resources and rep to do just that. If you're implying that the TRV900's better built than the 953, I'd say no. As good a cam as the TRV900 obviously is, I've seen many, and I mean many TRV900s with a wide variety of problems; some were only used several times and stored properly, others took a beating at the hands of many students over years...time will tell with the 953, but it's built durably (with the exception of those darn 'mud flap' port covers!); and, again, time will tell. I'd suggest buying a new cam, any new cam, on a credit card that doubles or triples the Mfr's warranty-many cards do.

"Some of the TRV900s I've looked at, and almost bought (circumstances beyond my control prevented it, unforunately) have been sold by people from this forum. I trust them more than some others, simply because they are here. That shows me an interest, and a knowledge of issues, that makes me worry less about how they have treated their cameras, and how honest they are about the mileage on them. There are people who will read this that got their first cam through someone else here--used. Some of them no doubt, will have sad stories--but the majority will have been pleased with their purchases, I'll bet."

Hey, it's your money- bet where it'll do the most good for ya.

"As a matter of fact, all the cams I've used--the PDX-10, the PD150, a cheap JVC and a cheap Panny--were all the property of my local community college, and so, (well) used. They've been absolutely fine. And let's not forget rentals. Renting A/V equipment is a big business, and all of that equipment is used, too. You just buy a it for a short time...it's a little different, but you get the point. In fact, any camera that anyone is currently using is a "used" camera--and these are cameras that we know and trust and dearly love. (well, some of them...)"

"As Frank said, the TRV900 is a great cam. The fact that it sat on a shelf in someone else's home for a while and then took a trip in a box to me shouldn't change that. I personally can't understand wanting to buy something that doesn't fit my needs or budget simply because it is new. So for me, the "difference in capabilities" is a deciding point of consideration."

Who says that the 953 'doesn't fit your needs or your budget'? YOU'RE the one asking us, Chris! Ultimately, it's gonna be you call...If you want to REALLY depart from the small orbit of these two (TRV90 and PV-DV953) similar cams, maybe a used DVX100 would be worth the risk..now THAT's a cam with features and footage clearly superior to either cams under discussion!

"Presumably, there are those out there (I count myself among them) who treat their cameras well and gently, and aren't liars when it comes time to sell them. Some got tired of video and want to liquidate, some want to step up to a pricier camera. Some thought they'd actually *like* shooting weddings ;^)"

I think if you are patient and careful and do your research, and use common sense, you can make out just fine."

That's a pretty fast way to lose a lot of money, Chris. The fact that you CAN 'make out just fine' doesn't mean you WILL. And if something goes wrong, even using your 'preferred method' of thoughtfully purchasing a used cam, who's going to refund the money if the seller doesn't do the right thing?...as, just as presumably, 'there are those out there (I DON'T count myself among them) who DON'T treat their cameras well and gently, and ARE liars when it comes time to sell them.'...are YOU going to gladly eat the cost and 'chalk it up to experience' if the seller doesn't, do what's right, Chris? If so, great. If not, get the 953 and enjoy it; it ain't less cam than the TRV- just a different set of strong points, that's all.

Tommy and I are merely pointing out the reasons for playing it safe and making sure the prospective buyer, in this case you, editing footage after the purchase instead of re-saving your money, this time for a NEW cam, from a reputable dealer, with the resources and the inclination to refund/exchange on demand from a buyer.

If I come across as 'ranting, I'm sorry...too much coffee and not enough sleep is a lifestyle I've gotta move past!

That's what I get for not re-reading the thread starter's post, eh?

Sorry about (my) apparent confusion...Chris, it's your money, your roll of the dice...I'd just add that anyone else reading this thread, and specifically your post about buying used cams, needs a rebuttal to balance their read...

Whatever you do with YOUR money, good luck with the purchase, new or used! From what you say, I'd assume that you're leaning towards the TRV900, a fine cam and one with which I'm certain you'll be happy...at least you've heard it from all sides, and so has anyone reading for the purposes of considering new vs. used as well.

Good luck and enjoy, Chris!

Tommy--how did you get that great price from B and H? Did you have to talk them down to it, somehow? When I checked their site, they list it at $2,175. Tell me something about the process you went through to get it at your price!

Great deal!! I'm jealous--a very cool little camera. Wish it had a handle on top, though... :^(

Charlie--yes, I can be a little long-winded at times, I'm afraid. When time permits, I prefer being clear and writing my thoughts out more fully than most, it seems. My emails read more like letters. And I guess some people might think my writing style is "rather condescending"--sorry if it comes off that way, it's not intended to be.

I won't go point-for-point on your dissection of my post (he says to cheers from the assembled throng) but a few things stand out.

First of all, I appreciate the feedback. I'm happy to hear that you have a long and successful track record buying used equipment--it's true when you say that 'used' is not the way to go for a lot of people. It's not--many people aren't savvy enough, afraid/unable to ask the right questions. I've bought a lot of guitars--all of them used (an area where "used" actually equals "better", frequently) and I have found that it's important to quiet that voice in the back of my head with solid information, or walk away fast if I can't.

I wasn't implying that the TRV900 is built better than the 953. I was simply saying that all things are susceptible to failure, new or used. The 900 has a good track record as a sturdy cam, and that counts for something with me. It *does* seem more solid (more metal) than the 953--who knows what that means in 3-5 years? The 953 looks great, too--it's the only other camera on my list (unless I hit the Lotto). Also, I was trying to say that I find it personally odd that anyone would have a camera and not really use it--but people do, God bless 'em! just a matter of finding them, not an easy thing--but they are also some of the ones most interested in selling what has become a usless piece of depreciating electronics.

Refund/repair/replace issues are very important. No doubts there. A real plus for the 'new' route. No arguments there.

"Who says that the 953 'doesn't fit his needs or his budget'? ", you asked. I do, or at least I reserve the right to. The statement was just about my needs and wants, not anyone else's. I started this thread to gain some information about the 2 cams...they fit my needs, and budget, most closely. I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves what they need, or can afford.

Thanks.

Posts crossing in the night.

Thanks Charlie.

And after I edited the first one after my (corrective) post, too! Man. I've gotta get some sleep...

Best of luck and kind regards, Chris!

Better send that coffee to Frank! He ran out...

:^)

By the way--I went and actually clicked on one of those "Send Me A Better Price" links at B and H for the PDX-10--and they quoted $1,995, as opposed to the posted $2,175. Don't know why I've never thought about doing that before...it always seemed kind of odd, I guess--like I'd have to end up haggling or something. Or get more spam. So that solves that question, at least partially--so how did Tommy go from $1,995 to $1850, shipped?

Mesmerism, maybe!

Seriously, Tommy, I'd be curious to hear something of your dealing with them. Thanks!

Chris,

B&H has a "email me a better price" link under the price and that will yield an instant price of $1995.

To get the $1850 price I called with every intention on getting the PDX10 regardless of haggling.

I start off by asking if he can see if there are any open box specials on the PDX10 as its out of my budget at their asking price. That lets him know that I know exactly the cam I want and that his $1995 price is too high for me. He says there are no open box specials but if I purchase on the phone right then that he can sell it for $1850. There was actually $20 shipping but I used my PayPal debit card which landed me an instant cash back bonus of $28.04. Of course it might depend a lot on who answers the phone but thats why someone invented redial. :)

I declined a few low pressure sales pitches for warranty and accessories and I was done.

I'm glad that my month long cam search is over. I had originally planned just to upgrade from my DV953 to the GS100 but my cam budget increased enough to consider the PDX10.

Congrats on your PDX purchase Tommy!


I'm now having my first cup of coffee---cheap from Super Store. :)

Thanks Frank.

Looks like it wasn't my powerful skills of persuasion that got me the $1850 price.

IT WAS A THREE DAY SALE! too funny.

read about it here

http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies...&tid=101700011

Sale ends today judging by the post.

Well, I've done it. Call me crazy. Go ahead, call me crazy. I'll wait right here.

I read Tommy's post about the special at B & H and, after much feverish thought, bit the bullet and bought a PDX-10. It was a completely painless, no-pressure sale. $1850, plus S & H of less than $20. I called them at about 6:30pm on the 24th (they close at 7) whioch shows you how I put off the decision until the last minute!

So Tommy, I think maybe they owe you some sort of commission, and I owe you a big "Thank you".

The purchase ran counter to what my budget was telling me, but I figured it was going to end up being a few more credit card payments, so I just did it, and put myself out of my misery.

Thanks to all who helped with this process!

Nothing like going over budget!

Congratulations on the PDX10 purchase.

Here is a link for a free LCD hood from Sony!

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professiona...pdx10hood.html

Sony brochure on the PDX10

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professiona...pdx10final.pdf

Large photos of the PDX10

LARGE
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professiona...dsrpdx10_z.jpg

SUPER-SIZED
http://w3.studiotech.hu/studiotech/h...DSR-PDX10P.jpg

Photo lifted from Japanese manual :)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-.../pdx10wide.JPG

PDX-10 Question!
 

Hey Tommy:

Is the PDX-10 a smaller form factor than the DV953. The dimensions of the DV953 are 105/8"X51/8"X81/2" and the dimensions of the PDX-10 are 8"X4"X3". it seems smaller than the DV953. Is that true? I heard it was not as easy to handle as a hand held camera but one can get used to it from one of the reviews I read. How about the weight, they also say it's much heavier nearly one pound which I'm sure it is because of it's construction. Can you easliy throw this in a backpack or something and go.... I'm not interested in the XLR block right now, but understand there are built in stereo mic below the lense. How about camera noise? Gee all these questions!!!!

I know you were considering the GS100 and I was wondering why you decided to go with the PDX-10 now.... I know your budget increased, but were there other factors.

I'm obviously curious about the form factor as mentioned and how this camera compares to your previous DV953. I heard there NO manual iris control on the Sony ...is that true? Is it top loading, there was no information on that. I would appreciate your input since my DV953 order is "still on backorder" and you have experience with that camera as well. My plus is I know someone who can get me the PDX-10 as I work in television as you'll recall.

Thanks.... Rick.

opps .... probably wrong forum heading for this ... sorry gang!

Thanks Tommy--I'm glad you're around. I remember seeing that LCD hood promotion somewhere a while back, and dismissed it because there was no way i was going to get a PDX-10...pretty funny.


Rick, I haven't used the 953, but I've used a PDX-10 pretty extensively. I do wish it had a handle on top, I think I'll fabricate some elegant solution to that. It IS a chunk--very solid to my touch, dense if you will. I like that. I have hand held it for hours, off and on, and it was OK. The dimensions you refer to might be the cam alone without the attachments, don't know--but the XLR adaptor, microphone, lens hood and a battery all add to it's size quite a bit. it works out pretty well, I think. Balance is not too bad--at least it didn't bother me.

It would go in a backpack fine. Heavier than a 953, but hey, it's about the weight of the water bottle I usually carry.

I never noticed any camera noise at all, really. Didn't do any supercritical testing--it was weddings and short film shoots, etc. but it seems quite quiet.

It is top-loading.

The manual iris thing has been debated some in here. My take is this: you can control the iris, it's just done differently than some are used to. Do a search of the forum with the keywords "PDX-10 iris" ad you'll get a whole lot of info. Or go right to this post....
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ght=PDX10+iris

Hope this helps until someone else comes along

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : Doesn't the PD100A have a wider lens or field of view that the TRV900? -->>>

No, they're the same lens, but the PD100 was sold in a package that included an add-on wide-angle converter lens.

Rick,

Jap sites indicate that the 950 and PDX10 have exactly the same dimensions: 93 x 99 x 202mm. Weight 750/940 grams (with batt)

Assuming the 953's body is identical to MX5K, the dimensions are 75 x 91 x 179mm. Weight 950/1400 grams (with batt, XLR)

I do have a personal issue hand-holding the 950 (and my hands are pretty normal) and the balance is not as good as 953. Yeah it IS a chunk, IMO. I haven't seen nor touched a PDX10. It may be trivial to others but better check out a 950 wherever it's available in your area to give you a better idea on how a PDX10 would feel on your hands.

Regards

Allan, might the weights that you list be reversed? Don't know, since I haven't touched the 953, but I always assumed it would be lighter than the PDX-10.

On the hand holding issue,my default preference is for a bigger camera, preferably on my shoulder--so the small size of any of these cams is not my first choice. It never feels like I can keep it as still as I'd like. I almost always use 2 hands, sometimes one of them using the LCD screen as an outrigger to steady it.

Ooops, yeah the weight are reversed. Thanks!