DV852 on the way, and a tape question
 

My wife is due with our first in March, so I needed to make a purchase *fast fast fast*. I looked at the Sonys, and the GS70/PV953, and looked at various DV sites on the Internet until my eyes bled.

The impressions I came away with is that the Panny 3 chippers wouldn't be entirely useful for all the indoor stuff I'm going to be shooting. The GS70s poor stabilizer is worrisome, and the PV953 is expensive (do-able, but with a baby on the way $1000 is a chunk of change!). The Sonys looked ok, but like most Sony stuff is way overpriced for what you get, and with reports of the tape audio picking up the transport noise, they start to sound more like toys than good camcorders.

So, with my hand forced (I'd have loved to wait until the 04 camcorders were out and reviewed!), I discovered this board with people talking about the long-discontinued Panny DV852 and how nice it was. Normally I'd never buy a camcorder without handling it first, but considering B&H was the only place on the planet still selling them new-in-the-box, I jumped on it. I'll receive it on Monday, if anyone is interested I'll post impressions.

One area of concern to me is tapes. I'm aware that you're supposed to stick with one sort of tape throughout the life of a camcorder, and I was prepared to go with Maxell, since that's what Sam's Club sells for a good price. One thing that made me rethink this is I searched for 'Maxell' on this very board, and the thread list was hilarious. It looked something like:

"MY Canon GL1's tape transport died, help!"
"I switched tapes, now my camcorder is dead!"
"Camcorder eating tapes, how to fix?"
"My tape heads are destroyed, what did I do wrong?"

This did not lead me to believe that Maxell makes quality tapes. So here I'm already stressed from my frantic camcorder hunt, and now I have to worry about tapes too. After all, when I go back and look at video from when I was a baby/toddler, I'm struck by how I wish I had more to see. It's fascinating stuff, and I want my son to be able to re-experience his childhood, dead relatives, etc.... So, I need tapes that will last, and not drop-out. I'm going to edit and burn a lot of this stuff to DVD, but I look at the DVD as a "disposable" medium; in 10 years when you can put a terabyte (1000 gigs) on a DVD, I want to be able to dump my tapes onto them without having to compress the video any.

I went to taperesources.com and bought 10 "PANASONIC AY-DVM63MQ" tapes, plus the head cleaner - are these decent tapes? They matched the brand of the camcorder, and cost quite a bit. Since I'm not really savvy about this stuff at all, I have to fall back on my unfortunate "if it's expensive, it has to be good" mentality. Hopefully I won't regret going with that type of tape!

Now, I just have to hunt for a bag, and a tripod (that can wait awhile though). Since these items go by "personal taste", I'll get to go doof around camera shops next weekend. Good times!

Finally, I just want to say that this is one of the best DV forums I've found. People are civil here, and the snobbery is kept to a minimum. If any of the mods are reading this, thanks for the board, and I look forward to frequenting here in the future!

I use Panasonic tapes with DV852 and haven't had any problems so far.

Rich,
Welcome to the DV community and congratulations on your soon to be new baby! I wish I had film of me when I was a pup to see today. They didn't invent modern videotaping until after I was 5 or 6 (Ampex) and those 1" reel to reel tapes were mighty expensive, not to speak of the recorder! (I know, I know...the Brits were video recording in the 20's and '30s...but that's another story.)

Well, hmmm, miniDV tapes. I know others have had different experiences, but I'll tell you mine. I buy the cheapest tapes I can find, usually from WalMart or over the internet, in a big pack. I have been doing this since 1997 or so and have never had a bad tape. I have used a number of different brands with no problems on two different DV cams. YMMV but I wouldn't worry too much.

I use the cheap standard Sony tapes on my Panasonic. I find the Panasonic tapes to be more 'dirty', as I need to scrub the playhead much more often when I use Panasonic tapes. Fuji tapes should be OK based on Frank's comments.

Carl Zeiss T* lens vs Leica Dicomar
 

What a coincidence Rich,
My wife is due in March too and I made the same decision regarding the 852 - (order from B&H and it is now in transit according to UPS) - I really could not justify the 500 usd extra for the 953.

I have one question - is anybody aware of a lens performance comparison test of the sony trv70 Carl Zeiss T* lens against the f1.8 Leica Dicomar from a Panasonic mini dv in the same price range ?

In the old days, Leica was considered slightly better than Zeiss, though zome Zeiss lenses were better than some Leica lenses and the other way around---and taking this one step further, some Nikon, Fuji and Canon, etc, lenses were better than some Leica and Zeiss lenses. Today, some Zeiss and some Lieca lenses on cams are better made than others found on cams, but it's not only the lens that's important, the CCD and the electronic engine and how the whole is put together is just as important, if you want to compare the video quality aspects of the cams using a Zeiss or Leica---or whatever "brand" lens.

I guess my question was not very detailed , to rephrase it - it will sound more like :

does the sony TRV70/80 (including the premium price of the sony brand) outperform the overal video quality of the pana 852 ?

The 852 is for myself the first step in digital world from 35 mm photography.

Tommy H or Allan R, would you please answer this question, since you 2 fine members have experienced both these cams? Thanks! Question:

Based on specs alone, the 852 should trash the TRV70 in low light. However, I'm talking out of my butt, since I've never used the 70 before. Check out camcorderinfo.com, they should have a thorough review.

Well, my real reason for posting is my 852 arrived today! Unfortunately I'm stuck at work, but my battery is charging at home and I'm looking forward to playing with it tonight.

My main fear with this cam was that it was a refurb or a return. Nobody else on the planet was selling new 852s, so I was almost expecting it.

Imagine my surprise and delight when this was as factory new/fresh/in the wrapper as any piece of electronics I've ever purchased. The box was even sealed with a factory sticker. B&H has been sitting on this camcorder for a *long* time; there was a JAL cargo sticker on the side of the box, so I decided to track it; well, it wasn't even in their system the number was so old! This was pretty solid evidence it wasn't a refurb. I wonder if B&H had a bunch of these things sitting in the warehouse they "forgot" about?

At any rate, I was also pleased with the heft of the device, it fit very well in my hand. It was definately bigger than the GS70 I played with at Circuit City, but a one-hander nonetheless (as an ex-user of the 80s era VHS camcorders, I appreciate that!). It is a very solidly built unit, though I was expecting that considering the 852 originally retailed for the same price as a 953.

Now, the proof is in the quality of the video this thing shoots. I bought a 10 pack of Panny tapes from taperesources.com (they came in boxes of 5), which amusingly also arrived today with a small bag of M&Ms. I bought the cleaning tape as well, although I don't see myself having to use it for a very long time.

One downside that I'm sure will be obvious to anyone buying this camcorder, is that the software that comes with it is older than Moses' great-grandfather. Not only that, but it appears that the software is actually the identical (but much older) bundle that came with my wife's Panny digicam two months ago. What is irritating is that the software is for still pictures only. Does Panasonic believe that people are buying these camcorders to take still pictures with? Man, that is strange! Yeah, I'll be shooting some amazing 640x480 stills on my 8 meg SD card, yessiree! :D

Seriously, I'm going to look into upgrading my editing software at home. Currently I'm using WinProducer 3.0, which came free with my Canopus ADVC card I bought back in '02. It does a decent enough job, but the MPEG2 compression it uses is awful. I've tried Vegas Video 3 and Adobe Premiere, but that stuff is *way* over my head. I could learn Vegas if I had the time, but learning Premiere would probably require a college course to learn so I'm skipping that one. If anyone has any recommendations, I'd be more than happy to give it a shot!

The TRV70 is a poor low light performer and you can see proof with the dvspot review (link below).

I prefer the PQ (including color accuracy) of the DV852 to the TRV70. Then you have OIS icing on the cake along with a price tag thats about half. :)

TRV70 Review

http://www.dvspot.com/reviews/sony/t...ew/index.shtml

DV852/MX8 Review

http://www.whatcamcorder.net/reviews...onicNV-MX8.php

You might take a look at Vegas's little brother Sony Screenblast Movie Studio. It is a scaled down version of Vegas with DVD authoring built in. It retails for $99 but you can often find it discounted at places like CompUSA.

Guy,

Thanks for the recommendation, that sounds exactly what I'm looking for! I'm going to see if I can get a demo of it. My other option is to stick with WinProducer, but then buy a copy of Canopus' Procoder Express to do my format conversions. Decisions, decisions...

Frank and Tommy - thanks for the input.

More posts after I receive my dv852 this week.

Rich,
You can download a trial version here.

The Zeiss and Leica names are endorsed products, not exactly produced by the respective companies.

As for lens quality, it should be equivalent and not really a major factor. Why? Because the CCDs are low res (as compared to the Canon 1Ds 12MP 35mm CCD) and the lens quality is sufficient at this level.

Focus on watching actual shots from the cameras, that's where you seee if you really like a camera or not.

As for camcorderinfo.com, I'll say that I choose to visit that site VERY rarely.

Y C H ,

i am dreaming about finding a benchmark test of lenses used for dv camcorder comparing apple to apples same size CCD with same resolution and topped by carl zeiss or leica (canon should use their advantage of having in house optics R&D)

the reason :

1. it is a good start for newbies like myself to move from stills/film to dv

2.educate most of the consumers to be a little more agressive with sales associates trying to push names like hasselblad and carl zeiss T* lenses to sale their products.

I do think that this community can make a big difference.
Users hands on experience is very important and I bet that there are more sites like camcorderinfo - sites where the regular consumer can get more confused and blinded by less important features/add ons.

I think YowCH is right. The resolution of just about any camcorder lens is far above the resolution of the CCD. If camcorder manufacturers were attempting to extract significantly increased prices using the lenses as the reason, you might have a case. However, camcorder prices continue to fall as the features on the camcorders increase. I don't think that the knowledgeable consumer is swayed by Zeiss vs. Leica vs. Canon. They are looking for the features on the camcorder that match up with their preferences. Most of the posts on this and other boards are about the quality of low light, 16:9 resolution, etc. rather than the lens quality. That indicates to me that the lenses provided on the current prosumer camcorders are all pretty good.

Just to add on, the 'flagship' consumer super camera from Sony, the VX2000, doesn't even come with their Carl Zeiss lens :-)

But the VX2000 is well revered as a semi-pro camcorder.

As a matter of fact, I have just checked the new VX2100, also no Zeiss.

A Zeiss is nice in the still camera world, probably movie camera world too, but with the low resolution of DV, it's not so much the lens as it is the CCD/s and the combined whole, or overall design of the camcorder, in my opinion---like how much a video quality difference is there between a PV-DV953 and a DCR570? Actually, not that much (in terms of video quality).

Re-read the posts here, plenty of babies in March, eh? My son will be born sometime in the second half of March.

yes, and all of them will have a daddy with a pana ...

we should start a panasonic dv forum with baby footage .

I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May.

Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room...

....If camcorder manufacturers were attempting to extract significantly increased prices using the lenses as the reason...

The actual trend right now is the manufacturers attempt to extract significant price decreases by using smaller and smaller and smaller lenses. Have you guys seen the latest Sony offerings? They look like toys. 25mm filter thread.

<<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May.

Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room... -->>>

I'll decide for you, take both, the VX2000 on a tripod in the corner, capturing the whole scene in one continuous time line.

The GS100, for details, interesting angles and to give your wife a live view on its large viewfinder!

And pass the 10D to the nurse in green (auto) mode for shooting stills!

Hahahaha, just a joke...

Sony...25mm filter threads?? What the---!? Really?? Ugh. :-((

tape again...
 

"I use the cheap standard Sony tapes on my Panasonic. I find the Panasonic tapes to be more 'dirty', as I need to scrub the playhead much more often when I use Panasonic tapes. Fuji tapes should be OK based on Frank's comments."

I was just about to stock up on Panasonic tapes, since
a. Panny has a range of dv tapes, which give the impression they have various quality grades and specfic tapes for longer shelf life, arhiving, etc.
b. Their MQ is said to produce less wear, and is marketed as a pro product
c. Pann PQ is reasonably priced and is often mentioned here
d. Sony supposedly has a different lube than other brands and isn't compatible. Whether it's better or worse otherwise I have no idea
e. It's had about 20 min use so far with Panasonic tape, though I doubt that's enough to leave any meaningful residue.

Shoud I Stock up on Fuji (one grade available) or choose one of the Panasonic grades?

Just when I thought I was done with the tape question...

<<<-- Originally posted by Yow Cheong Hoe : <<<-- Originally posted by Tommy Haupfear : I'll be a bit behind with twin boys in May.

Now I just have to decide whether to take the VX2000 or GS100 into the delivery room... -->>>

I'll decide for you, take both, the VX2000 on a tripod in the corner, capturing the whole scene in one continuous time line.

The GS100, for details, interesting angles and to give your wife a live view on its large viewfinder!

And pass the 10D to the nurse in green (auto) mode for shooting stills!

Hahahaha, just a joke... -->>>

That's HILARIOUS. I was actually debating bringing my tripod into the delivery room; I'd take "personal" shots beforehand, but when the labor gets serious stick the camcorder on the tripod and edit the whole mess together. The question is, who is going to want to watch my masterpiece??? It's not like my wife is going to want everyone to see her half-naked doing her "contraction exercises". Maybe if I ever have a girl I'll make her watch it when she's a teenager to show her the pain and suffering of what happens after you have sex. Hmmm.... :D

Guy Bruner: Thanks again for the "Sony Movie Studio" recommendation. I wasn't aware that Sony had purchased Sonic Foundry, the software is just like you said, a stripped down Vegas. I actually do already have a copy of Vegas LE, but it doesn't have the format conversion features the Sony branded product does. I'm almost sold on it, I just have to do some research and find out what I'd be missing out if I just went and acquired the full version of Vegas (being 29, I still know some people taking college classes... academic pricing, here I come!). I also want to compare the Sony's MPEG2 output against Canopus' Procoder Express; I'm aware the Canopus product will almost certainly be better, but by how much I'm not sure.

Laurence, stick with what works for you. If you go with Pana, and this works for you (no problems), than only go with that Pana model tape. I wouldn't even mix Pana tapes. Dirty heads are no fun.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rich Perna : The question is, who is going to want to watch my masterpiece??? It's not like my wife is going to want everyone to see her half-naked doing her "contraction exercises". Maybe if I ever have a girl I'll make her watch it when she's a teenager to show her the pain and suffering of what happens after you have sex. Hmmm.... :D

Well.. we certainly are drifting really far off-topic here, but...

I did a 10 minutes video of my daugther's birth story, from the point my wife reach the hospital, some waiting, the birth and the one-night stay in the hospital after that. The audience was pretty please with the documentary. Of course you won't be pointing the cam at only the blood and stuff. And editing makes wonders.

To get back onto the topic, tape question: I used Sony tapes for the delivery shoot (hahah, what a lame excuse of getting back into the topic)

Just a follow-up on the story of child-birth, my son, David, was born at 00:20 Singapore time on 24 March 2004. I had the overall room shot in video (MX350 on tripod) and had my Fuji S602 shooting stills.

Mother and son are fine, natural birth, and without anaesthesia. We are home now.

But sure enough, the low light performance of my MX350 is not as good as my ex-MX8, but the colour saturation is certainly much better.

Papa! Congrats! Your 1st?

I told you not to sell your MX8, and so did, "BB," as I recall.

Just to say on topic, which one's better: the MX350 or the MX8? And what miniDV tape did you use?

Nope, my second, the MX8 was used to shoot my daughter's birth 2 years ago.

As for tape, I have been using Sony 60 minutes basic tapes for very long.

No regrets of on the sale of my MX8, I was selling low light performance for vibrant colours and "professional" settings like dedicated WB button, audio input levels, zebra andimage sharpness levels.

Good luck with your growing family. You probably told me about your 1st, but I couldn't remember. Sorry. Tommy should have a new-born coming any day now. I'm just stuck with a cat (and a wife).

If I had to decide between a 1-chip and a 3-chip, I'd probably go with the 3-chip also. The improved colors really make a big difference, even though I'm a bit color blind. :))

About the Sony tape, it seems it works just fine in my friend's older 3-chip Pana, pre-MX3. He did have problems at one point, but after I explained to him that "mixing" was a nono, his broken-up video problems went away.

I almost bought a PB-DV852, by the way, when B&H had that deal. Then 1 day away from putting in the order, I found out that they were all sold out. The early worm gets the worm, or so the saying goes. I should have scrapped up the scratch a bit sooner.

Congratulations YOWCH, to you and your wife on the birth of your son! Glad to hear everyone is doing well.

Hi all,

I'd forgotten about this thread until I got a notification that someone had posted to it again. :)

Congratulations Yow - my son was born 3/23, 4:01pm EST. I only taped some "after birth" stuff with my DV852, mom wasn't too enthused about recording anything before that. :) Stills were taken with a Panasonic FZ10 (maybe I should buy stock in Matsushita!).

Well, he's crying now and mom's in teh shower, so off I go.