Lighting
 

What's a good lighting rig to get when using a DVX-100?

I'm a nob so I'm buying equipment to learn.

I've seen some examples of movies/shorts that were filmed using the DVX but they seem to be poorly lit.

Well, this question gets asked once or twice a week. A search of the lighting area (Photon management) should bring some answers, but the biggest question you'll get is "what do you want to light?"

Lighting a 1 person interview is going to be a very different answer than lighting a corporate boardroom, or lighting a scene in a gymnasium.

Well to be more specific, I'm trying to film a movie and I have 4 types of scenes i will need help with. I'm trying to get a professional DP but also interested in purchasing the equipment since I don't want this to be my one and only project:

I'm particular interested in lighting outdoor scenes at night.

Interior nighclub scenes/party scenes.

scenes where it's suppose to be dimly light ie, a dark field

interior scenes but simulating night time for day shoots.

What's your budget?

Outdoor scenes at night are BIG BUDGET items, and nearly everyone on a budget shoots day for night. Even the pros. If you really do have to shoot it at night, plan on renting that gear. Seriously.

Interior nightclub scenes, especially wide views are best shot on location with the real lights. Otherwise you're going to need a Hollywood budget to do it right.

If you plan to light a couple actors, in a dark field, and it's really night time, you're going to have to do a few things.

1. Get the light high enough to make someone believe it's moonlight
2. Get enough light out there so it doesn't look like a light from a police helicopter (you're going to need good spread).
3. Get enough intensity to actually light the subjects. A few 18ks and a balloon should do the trick. But I don't think you're going to want to foot the bill to buy this stuff.

You're in NY. You have a dozen places to rent all this stuff. Buying it makes little sense unless you want to open a production company.

You mention you saw some stuff shot with the DVX that seemed to be poorly lit. That's likely because the lighting setups you just mentioned would each costs $50k to purchase.

-P

Actually, I did start (just registered as a new company) a production company.

I want to purchase these items because after I finish my film, I want to begin work on a TV pilot. Reguardless if it gets picked up or not, I would do some web episodes to try and get some attention.

My budget is not big by any means. This is a bare bones operation. I'm hoping to spend no more than about $1,000 on lighting. If there's no way I can get the equipment I need then fine, I'll explore the renting option.

Would there be a standard light set up that basically any novice should at least have in his/her inventory?

How I do shoot in the day and get it to replicate night?

I'm currently checking out the "show us your work" section to see how others accomplished these lighting issues but noticed that everyone seems to be using HD cameras.

Ryan, I am going to assume you are new to this.

Honestly, the lights you'd need to do a TV pilot would be in the low to mid 5-figures range. Frankly, $1k of quality light might buy one small light. Two if you buy used.

To shoot a basic 1 person interview, I typically take:

1. Softbox + stand
2. Foamcore + C-Stand
3. 1Kw backlight with gels
4. 750w light for background or interest, or to bring up ambient depending on locale.


I bought the least expensive professional lights I could get, and I bought some good C-Stands as they are indispensable, and nearly indestructible. So what kinds of prices are we talking?

A decent softbox with the lamp will run $400-$800. And yes, this is low end. A quality C-Stand is about $175 with shipping. For a TV pilot, you may need a dozen or so. The 1Kw open faced light is about $200. The 750w broad light for backgrounds is about $130. You'll also need stands for those lights unless you purchase them in a kit. You'll also need gels for the lights to color match, if you don't purchase it all in a kit.

A 3-light interview kit that contains all the pieces will cost about $900-$1200. And that is essentially to well light someone seated in a chair. Once they are on the move, you've got to light an *area* and not just a person, and the prices start to move up. When you have to light an area where there is no existing light, or very little, then the price moves up exponentially.

I'm afraid your expectations are pretty far removed from reality, and you will now come to understand why so many projects you see are under lit.

You use specific filters (day-for-night filters) and techniques to simulate it. It takes some skill and practice though.

For the purposes of lighting, HD and SD are quite similar.

LOL, what gave it away?

The fact is I'm a writer first and foremost. Never tried to do the technical stuff until recently where it seems like that's the only way to get my stuff out there is to do it myself.

As far as expectations, I knew even before I joined this board that things were going to be expensive. Being that I don't know anything about lighting, I just wanted to get a sense of what I should look for/anticipate needing.

That's the primary reason I listed the four types of scenes I knew would be most difficult to light so I could figure out what I'd need. That being said, and now having a better idea of what kind of lights I will need, I can go back and put that into my excel spreadsheet and come up with a realistic budget for my film.

Thanks man though for helping to break it down for me. Can I pm you for more direction as I continue on?

There are a LOT of people here more experienced than me, and likely some near you. But, I'd be glad to offer what help I could. I'm fairly new to lighting myself, just a bit further down this road than you.

But yea, it's going to be very expensive.

lite enuff
 

If i might suggest a quick trip to the Video Copilot web site. You'll find some really great tutorials there, including a couple of day-for-night examples that illustrate how you can get good effects w/o the expense of night lighting.

The guys are right, any attempt to shoot a movie or tv pilot with a basic 3 point light kit or a handful of lights will show the lack onscreen. At the very least, check out the forums on fluorescent lights, they are getting cheaper all the time, and you can even make your own, though Coollights and others are probably able to sell a better built lite for about what you'll spend to make your own. Maybe less if you factor in the value of your time spent earning.

hey Paul thanks a lot. To be honest, I got so caught up looking at the FX stuff I haven't even looked at the lighting help.

On a flip side, I just copped 2 broad lights 1k W for about $180. did I over pay?

Depends on what they are. So, what are they? Got pics?

Smith Victor 750 Quartz Broad Flood Lights

Here's an image of what one looks like. They're used and was told that they could use either 500w or 1000w bulbs

Hmmm

Smith-Victor | 750SG 1000 Watt Tungsten Broad Light | 401107

Yeah, so that's great then right?

Well, you paid a bit more than half price. The pertinent question is do you need the light that these will give off? Broads are awesome if you need to throw a TON of light in no particular direction. They are also great to bounce off reflectors, or raise the ambient light levels in a room (with no windows).

I don't see any provision to put gels on these so you're going to be in a spot if you ever need to balance them to daylight. There doesn't seem to be a way to attach anything at all to the light, execpt maybe an umbrella somehow so you're going to have a tough time controlling any spill.

So while these will have some use, it will be somewhat limited, and frankly a used Fresnel would have probably paid better dividends. But hey, sometimes you get what you can get.

Well, I got 2 for the price of one and I only got these 'cause you mentioned that you have one in your light set up. Was the 1000w good enough to light up a dimly light white room? I have a couple of indoor scenes in my movie and I was thinking that the 2 lights would be a nice way to light the white walls.

Also Maybe I'm wrong but don't the holders for the gels and filters connect to attachents on the stands as well? Maybe I did mess up.

Yes, I have one in my kit. But I use it for very specific things. Generally the stuff I mentioned. And my broad has fittings to attach gels and diffusion. I made sure of that before I bought it.

However, these SV Broads should light the HECK out of some white walls! You'll be fine there.

Thanks PF (hope you don't mind me calling you that).

Also, I'm looking into an Omni flood light rig.

What do you think about kino flows and I heard someone mention DP lights? I'm planning on going to B&H here to look at the Lowells they have as well.

Also, I'm thinking of just sticking with 1000w lights. Should I go higher? The guy that sold me the SV's said he has 500w bulbs and 1000w bulbs. I bought a set of each. Been toying the the DVX at home to see how just a 75w bulb lights.

I need a DP sheesh!

You'll find lights are like cameras. They all light, but they go about it differently, and there is no one light for all scenarios.

You'll also learn that rating lights by watts is useless. It tells you nothing about how much light the fixture is putting off, nor the quality of that light. And not the color of the light either. All are crucial factors.

I assume you'll be plugging these lamps into general circuits and not a generator. You can get 1500-2kw on a 20amp circuit if there is NOTHING else on it. So loading up on a bunch of power hungry tungsten lights isn't going to get you too far.

The fluorescents are generally very efficient giving off about 4-5 times the light per watt of Tungsten. So a 25w Fluo is similar to a 100-125w tungsten lamp. HMIs are also excellent, but very expensive. Lowell lights are nice, and I have a few (Tota, DP, Rifa88). Kino Flo lights are an industry standard, but a bit pricey.

When you say fluorescents do you mean the kino flos?

yeah that's another question I had written down and forgot to ask. Someone mentioned to me the flourescnets aren't good because they tend to flicker and aren't stable, yet aren't the Kino's flourescents?

Also another thing I noticed while playing with the DVX, anything white would display or show up on the viewfinder with flickering striped lines.

You got a lot of work to do my friend! :)

Fluorescents of ANY kind. The Kino Flo's are very high quality units with specific color balanced tubes. There are lots of types of fluorescent lights out there. Most of gotten long past the flickering, sickening green things we used to know. They run cool, don't use a lot of power, and kick off a lot of light. Soft light. So if you need the light to carry a long way, or are trying to create strong shadows, then Fluos are not what you want.

The "striped" lines you say are "zebras". It's the camera's way of letting you know you may be about to overexpose something, and you need to be careful. You need to read through the manual carefully, and learn the camera.

DVX cam is great. I love mine.

LOL, who are you telling? Trying to make everything in a production work is tough and because I'm working with dedicated but uneducated (no technical background in this area; Love my guys!) I want to make sure I have some knowledge as well.

So then I shouldn't shy away from a rig of flourescents? Would Kino Flos be what I want to simulate day shoots at night, depending of course on the reflective surfaces of the back grounds/setting?

Hey, gimme a break! I'm doing this off the fly ;-) I got a bunch of other things I'm still trying to knock out before I read the book. Truthfully though, I gonna get a DP to handle all of this but I'd like some back ground knowledge so I'd be able to figure out if I hire a good one or a bad one. And preferably one that uses/owns a DVX.

Tell me about it. I took it out the box on Tuesday and was in love. Just off the cuff, comparing it to my Sony TVR (Hi-8) of 10 years ago or even my Sony DCR of 7 years ago, there's a VERY NOTICABLE difference.

Man I can't wait to start filming.

Good idea to learn as much as you can.

Not solely fluorescents. They are tools. But you can't build a house with just hammers. You're going to need other tools as well. A fluorescent like a Kino won't light much past 10ft if that. You need a different tool.

It's going to be a rare DP who shoots an DVX these days. Although it's an awesome DV camera, it IS a DV camera. And not what a pro DP would be shooting with most likely. Unless it was for something very specific.


Enjoy your camera. I have an original DVX. Bought it only a few months after it was released. It's served me well, and still looks nearly new. They hold up great if you care for them.

Not what I wanted to hear.

But couldn't it be said that since the DVX is what most film school students use/have used, that even if they've moved up to something more tech worthy they'd still be able to regress per say and use a DVX?

Don't most DPs that are worth their salt, own some kind of high end camera as well?

Who told you most film students use or have used a DVX?

I couldn't say what most DPs would own, but I'd suspect many own film cameras, and some will own higher end video cams. Some might have owned DVXs way back when.

Anyone who's done even am little DP work should be able to figure out the DVX in an afternoon, and be ready to roll. It's a fairly simple camera as far as basic settings go.

24pA, zebras, all manual, set iris, shutter, focus and go. Oh, and load a tape! :)

When I was investigating what camera to used (I graduated from NYU but for writing not film) a bunch of people that I went to school with (I grad in '99) said the best cam to use was a DVX as far as budget vs quality goes. I asked how hard it was to use and the group (3 people I knew really well and then a bunch of their film friends/collegues who I met in passing) said that most used the DVX because it gave you a 35 mm look with out the costs of developing/editing/purchasing 35mm.

the ultimate problem, and this is why I discovered this board, is that most of these same people DIDN'T own a DVX (stupid me) nor were not DPs.