Is the DVX100A obsolete already?
 

With the release of the new Canon XL-2 with 16:9, 24P, and removable lenses And Now the Newest release of the Sony HDR-FX1 future Pro version with HD format, 16:9, 24P, XLR inputs , a B & W LCD, and possible DVCAM format ; does this sink the first 24P camera, the DVX? I think especially with Sony's new release if your serious about the future you have to consider it since you will have access to such a wide array of capability and formats to do many different projects.
What do the masters think?

pffffft far from it mate..

i dont mean to sound biased but for the price compared to these other new units its long from dead..

on top of that, HD doesnt have a delivery method now, unless u encode to MPG4, and play back on an MPG4 dvd player (BraVo) then theres blue ray which weve heard so much about but noone seems to know exactly what it can really do and how it will benefit producers... only now are there editing solutions being made available, but the fact remains, delivery is stil in SD.
On top of that ,its actually not "real" HD, as its upsampled footage which is interpolated to fit into a HD "standard"

as for widescreen, the DVX has an adapter, or u can use the in-cam widescreen with comparable loss in resolution.

I think the XL2 will be the winner out of the two, and the Sony will sell for the 16:9 alone.. but price and cost of changing your editing solution still doesnt justify it when u consider that you can upsample your footge in post to HD anyway...

Hell i do it now with my DVX100 with Vegas 5.. i then run mpg2 streams from a TViX Multimedia Box running a 200gb HDD straight into a Visio Plasma screen.. I do this to demo the HD performance of the Visio and it works beautifully

Good points but
 

Yes but the Sony HDR-FX1 Pro version will have DVCam format so you can run three hours of full DV on one tape plus it will have everything the DVX100A has plus native 16:9, HD formats, and the nice pro B&W LCD viewfinder and so on. I'm not disagreeing with your point I'm just saying for a camera with a Real Future The New Sony will be the one to go with. I'm still up in the air because I'm a Canon guy and have three of their cams so the XL-2 is still in contention. But considering the Base Prosumer Sony HDR-FX1 is almost cheaper then the DVX100A I don't think a lot of people will be sticking with DVX100A in the future. Even though yes it was a groundbreaking camera and still has a great lense and technology.

"Yes but the Sony HDR-FX1 Pro version will have DVCam format so you can run three hours of full DV on one tape."

Only if they put a full size tape deck on the unit, which I highly doubt. If they stay with the same (mini-DV) size tape, it will be the usual 40 minutes that you get with a PD-170.

Paul, it sounds like your mind was pretty much made up before you posted. Look, the fact is, these are all different cameras in different price ranges that do different things. Different people are looking for different things - so while the DVX might be sunk for you based on your desires, it may not be sunk for someone else. I personally don't think it's sunk. If a pro 3CCD 24p HD camera magically comes out at the same price as the DVX, you can be sure that Panasonic will drop its price. So even then it will have life.

There's really no point arguing better/worse over a camera that doesn't exist yet.

Why is everyone saying that there's no edit solution for this format? I thought That FCP 4.0 and up would edit MPEG2 video. Even if you use the Lumier software to ingest the MPEG2, its not that expensive- even for me.

I agree that its a problem tht there seems to be no playback solution other than the camera itself. Time wil solve this.

I know we have to jump in sometime, but I'm going to keep testing the waters until its right for me. Its getting verrrry interesting.

Jeff P.

Not made mind up.........yet
 

All good points. I am still mulling it all over, plus yeah I was on the Sony forum and started getting all swept up in the MOMENT. I think it is definatly in our future , just like when 24p first came out only a few NLE's would edit it so its only a matter of time, and unfortunatley a lot of MONEY. Today's new fangled digital wonder camera is next years HI-8 analog camera!

Re: Is the DVX100A obsolete already?
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Colt : And Now the Newest release of the Sony HDR-FX1 future Pro version with HD format, 16:9, 24P, XLR inputs , a B & W LCD, . -->>>


I may be all wet here, but to my limited knowledge there will not be 24p in the pro version of the FX-1. Only a Cinema setting. Not the same format as DVX and XL2. I think it's reaching to say that one camera will be obsolete by another camera that does not even offer the main feature that the initial camera is known for.

People will choose which format they prefer, but the DVX will not be obsolete until there is no SD video anymore.

Long way off.

From what I read on a few sites 24p will be included on the FX-1 Pro version but not on the Prosumer model. Of course the Ag-DVX100A will always be a good choice for general SD video projects. However someone that is looking to more up to a new 1/3 3-CCD Pro camera would have to look at a camera that offers more then just 24P and a decent lense like the DVX-100A . Both the New Canon and Sony models offer videographers more bang for thier bucks and it'll only get better in the future. Im sure the experts at Panasonic will be coming out with something in the new year to counter these latest models.

I have the Pana DVC30 at the moment, and while it is a great cam, I think I will pick up a second hand (or maybe price reduced) DVX100a in about a year.

It seems like a great camera and true prog is always good. The XL2 is just too expensive for me, and so will the pro Sony probably. There will will many like me who will pick up a DVX over the next couple of years - even if new models come out. People still use XL1/XL1s and GL2 etc, and they are getting on a bit now.

A camera will only become obselete when the format it uses ceases to be an available/cheap/worthwhile option etc. I think SD will still be used for a while yet. Here in the UK, most people haven't even heard of HD ;)

I still shoot Super 8mm as well as DV, which many thought would be obselete years ago (I'll probably not bother as soon as I get hold of a DVX though :)

"Why is everyone saying that there's no edit solution for this format? I thought That FCP 4.0 and up would edit MPEG2 video. Even if you use the Lumier software to ingest the MPEG2, its not that expensive- even for me. "

there are MANY edit solutions, from Matrox Oxio running Prem Pro, to Canopus Edius with their new board, Vegas was one of the first and FCP4 was teh apple equivalent.. editing is NOT the problem.. DELIVERY is.. two very different things..

as for the cameras, i trully doubt the SOny HD will have TRUE progressive scan CCD's as HD ISNT even a progressive format.. the closest thing to it is 30i.. not even that.. the CCDs alone are what blow the prices out...

dont get me worng these new formats are all fine and good, but in reality, ie today... theres really no point in stressing about it..

bang for the buck.. yes well what are u trying to bang out with this new hammer of yours??

And like i said, its a hybrid HD format upsampled from a lower resolution, so i can easily emulate that in many NLE's TODAY.. not november or december when the new FX1 comes out..

THATS my point...

I'm no expert in the camera stuff and just learning the things while I research for the camera(and I've finally decided to go for FX1). I think 24p missing on this FX1 is not a big deal for me - suppose I end up shooting something that turns out to be great, how hard is it going to be to turn it to 24p for film!!! From what I know it's not difficult to transfer 60i to film. And shooting something with 24p is not going to make it great - it's the script, lighting, they way it is shot that's going to make it interesting.

When I started to do study for camera purchase, I never thought I would see the same kind of discussions that go into music software(where some people think that some magical software which is better than other is going to let them do great music).

It's not about 24 frames, it's about 1 good idea. I dont mean to offend 24p believers - just writing something from my own little understanding I have about it.

well im in pal land so i dont use 24p ;)

but i agree with ur comments on the mentality behind what we make..

thing is progressive is a major element within film which give the FEEL of watchin a movie...

u can also emulate this in post... :)

As long as you are getting really good quality images and clean sound... no camera is obsolete.

Well I have yet to see anyone post any decent footage with significatnt movement in it. When they do, I'll be able to judge then. Until that point, unless someone really needs interchangeable lenses the DVX seems to still be the best bet. While the Xl2 produces really nice stuff from what I've seen, it lacks in a lot of features.....IMO.

Aaron

<< As long as you are getting really good quality images and clean sound... no camera is obsolete. >>

Woah... print that on a T-shirt, because out of all the good points made in this thread, this one is the smartest. I love it. If the camera works, it ain't obsolete. The DVX100A will continue to be a mainstay of affordable production long after Panasonic discontinues it.

It's never going to be obsolete for those who have it in their hands and using it. I think it's going to make a lot of difference for the first time buyers. Before it was DVX or maybe XL1s, now people looking to purchase something new are going to lean towards FX1. It's going to give a tough run to DVX unless the price of DVX is going to be reduced.

this FX1 is the camera the JVC should have been. The latest, greatest toy for the bimmer set and their large HD tvs. Because it's a Sony, it will sell much better than the JVC. Brand name is part of the yuppie/bimmer lifestyle. Many of the new HD sets, even the more affordable ones, are coming with firewire interface and support for mpeg2 decoding , so no need for an expensive playback device just yet. And blueray will probably be a favorite among those same people.

Even some of the future HD cable boxes will offer 1394 pass through. Most of this coming out early next year too. so the timing is pretty good, much better than when JVC released theirs.

Nothing like watching Junior scoring a goal in HD!
Or throwup.
I shudder to think about home made porno, hehehe.

Do you consider the vx1000 obsolete?

Because the dvx100a will be there very soon.

Preferences, Preferences, Preferences!

Some people like blue, some like red. When Avid was out, and it's capabilities other NLE systems didn't seem like they had the chance.

There came Final Cut Pro and Premiere. With AVid, FCP, and Premiere, how can other NLE system survive? But there are others like in-Sync Speed Razor and now the infamous SONY VEGAS 5.0.

You ask any of it's users, there are pros and cons to each.

As for the camera, same idea. Star Wars was shot on Panavision, Lords of the Rings shot on Arriflex and MovieCam. The prequel of Star Wars on Sony HDf900.

There all great movies and all great cameras. It boils down to the PERSON behind the camera.

Sony HD FX1 "MIGHT" in your opinion make the DVX100A obsolete, but I don't think -others would agree - Panasonic won't sit back and do nothing. Panasonic will continue to upgrade, then eventually make the Sony obsolete.

If you keep waiting, you'll never have a camera. Research and practice with the camera YOU FEEL MOST COMFORTABLE WITH.

Then we'll see your movie on the big screen!

I wonder whether the introduction of HD at a consumer level might be a way to freeze some people out of having their work distributed. For example video distributers might require a HD master as standard.

The ability to shoot HD at this kind of level begins to be a threat to professionals too. I've seen many DV shorts where I have imagined what they could have done with better equipment. Imagine if Open Water was shot on an FX1.

I also wonder if there might be something going on behind the scenes that we don't know about yet. HDCAM and Cinealta for example still don't match the resolution of a master film print. Maybe they are developing a digital version with the same resolution as that, or even 70mm film. Imagine a digital version of 70mm!

There must be something going on or being developed that will retain the traditional 3 tier heiarchy between the average Joe, the lower end prosumer/professional and the truly high end guys.

But I suppose even if there isn't, the FX1 might have a higher resolution, but if the person operating it doesn't know a thing about lighting etc then it's not going to help them any in getting a professional look. I've seen a lot of really amateur looking productions from the DVX100 because some people thought that 24p would magically make their production look 'big'.

I think we may just end up seeing a lot of HD home movies being produced. Not a very enticing prospect!

To answer the question
 

No it's not obsolete.

Having newer and meaner gear on the market does not automatically make older gear obsolete.

The real question is: what does my project need and does this current camera cover that need at an acceptable level. If not, can I *borrow* or rent one which does?

If the goal shifts towards latest features and gadgets etc. then we are joining the ranks of geeks dedicated to geekery and not filmmaking.

This reminds me of an audiophile friend with $10k speakers and $2k amplifier who is more passionate about his audiosystem than about the music he plays on it.

No offense intended, I am a geek myself.
It takes discipline on my side to take myself out of the bottomless pit of endless features and technical details of hardware and software and reconnect to my passion of making films.

And when I think about it - some of the greatest films were made on cameras which *are* obsolete.

By the way, make sure to rent "Supersize me." Shot on a VX2000 & PD-150 (I believe) with often abysmal sound, it gets its point through in an involving and touching way which had me forget about the media.

Cheers
-- Andre