DVFilm Maker for DVX100
 

We have posted a prototype version of DVFilm Maker which will convert DVX100 Advanced 24P from NTSC 2:3:3:2 pulldown to true 24P, without recompression. Right now this test version is available only for the Mac, OS9 or OSX. The Windows prototype will be available around Oct 1st.

For a brief description and download see
www.dvfilm.com/maker/dvx100.htm

If there are any comments or suggestions we will try to incorporate them before the release.

I will download the PC version as soon as it's posted. Of course, I only have a clip I downloaded off the web. A camera would help :)

Anyway, thanks for posting and glad you guys have made this available so quickly.

This should make my post much easier to do, especially if Premiere will let me edit at 23.976 with my RT2000.

But AE work will be much easier.

Marcus, will you be attending the upcoming Austin film festival in October? I'll be there for the whole thing, I think.

I'll definitely be in Austin, since I live there :) Might be too busy to go to the festival however, we have 3 features to transfer to film. But look for our transfers of "Blink" (3D animated short to 35mm) which is really cool, and the Austin Film Festival trailers which show before every film (35mm->DV->35mm) which we also did.

By the way, due to popular demand, I have posted a
Windows version of the DVFilm Maker - DVX100 prototype
software. There are some limitations, but it should be
useful for testing. See

http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/dvx100.htm

DVFilm Maker, questions on the PC version
 

Hello,

I have been using the DVFilm Maker PC Demo version converting some 2:3:3:2 footage to uncompress quicktime from DVX100 clips for testing purposes.

Does your program provide the encoder/decoder codac within itself for conversion/playback, or is it using others which may be on the system? I understand you are not recompression frames, only dropping the single interlaced frame in each 5 frame segment, but since you do provide a player, I am curious as to what codac you may be using.

Would you know why, when playing clips from within your program, microblock artifacts which are viewable in other players/editors, are not visabily appearent in yours.

As these artifacts are of major concern to most, if not all of us on the 2 Pop Discussion Board, DVX100 forum, your help in understanding what I have been seeing on my computer while conducting these tests could be very useful in helping many of us decide whether or not to buy this 24P camera.

Thanks for info you can share.

-Rodger

DVFilm Maker uses the Quicktime DV codec exclusively, even for decoding AVI's.

The reason the image looks better in Maker is because the codec is configured by the program to display both fields and in "high quality" mode, so basically you see every pixel. This is the image which would be used for a transfer to film.

Other programs may show only one field, or they may show half the pixels in one field, in order to play it back more quickly.

When you play NTSC-DV through the firewire port to a DV deck and NTSC monitor, you see every pixel and both fields, but only one field at a time, not simultaneously as it would be on film. That may explain why some people see flicker in the 24P footage. But it would not affect the transfer to film.

If 24P is used to create NTSC footage for broadcast, it needs to be softened a little bit in the vertical direction to reduce flicker. But you wouldn't want the camera to do that, because it would soften the film transfer. It's best done in post. The eventual release version of DVFilm Maker will allow that, convert 24P to NTSC with a 3:2 pulldown and a little bit of (optional) vertical blending.

By the way what I have seen so far of the DVX100 Advanced 24P looks very good from our perspective of a DV to Film transfer, provided Maker is used as the first step in editing to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown.

Marcus:

What's your thoughts on FX/Compositing and this camera?

Working with fields/interlaced in AE is always a pain. I"m considering shooting 24P (Advanced or Normal), using AE or Maker to remove pulldown, work with file in AE at 24fps, the output back to NTSC, maybe using AE to add pulldown back in?

I'm worried of recompression in the above workflow and doing it uncompressed may get unwieldy for longer projects.

Plus, not sure if AE is up to pulldown tasks. Could Maker help?

This sounds like a circular argument but here it is:

You need effects in your movie but suppose you have scenes that do not require effects. You would not want to use AE just to remove pulldown from raw footage for later editing, because AE would recompress it whereas Maker would not.

Because of that reason, you should always shoot the Advanced 24P mode because it allows Maker to work without recompression. Hence the whole movie needs to be shot in the Advanced Mode unless you want to switch back and forth all the time, which would be a pain.

And hence you would always use Maker as a front end to AE because AE cannot remove 2:3:3:2 pulldown. Fortunately there is no loss in quality in doing that because Maker does not recompress.

Is my Quicktime Player CRIPPLED?
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Marcus van Bavel : DVFilm Maker uses the Quicktime DV codec exclusively, even for decoding AVI's.

The reason the image looks better in Maker is because the codec is configured by the program to display both fields and in "high quality" mode, so basically you see every pixel. This is the image which would be used for a transfer to film.

Other programs may show only one field, or they may show half the pixels in one field, in order to play it back more quickly.

When you play NTSC-DV through the firewire port to a DV deck and NTSC monitor, you see every pixel and both fields, but only one field at a time, not simultaneously as it would be on film. That may explain why some people see flicker in the 24P footage. But it would not affect the transfer to film.

If 24P is used to create NTSC footage for broadcast, it needs to be softened a little bit in the vertical direction to reduce flicker. But you wouldn't want the camera to do that, because it would soften the film transfer. It's best done in post. The eventual release version of DVFilm Maker will allow that, convert 24P to NTSC with a 3:2 pulldown and a little bit of (optional) vertical blending.

By the way what I have seen so far of the DVX100 Advanced 24P looks very good from our perspective of a DV to Film transfer, provided Maker is used as the first step in editing to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown. -->>>

Thanks for your reply...

But now, by what you have said above, I can only believe my Quicktime Player is not functioning properly -- either by intent (because I have the free version), or because it is damaged in some way. Would you know which is most likely?

-Rodger

Update - Only Quicktime Pro will allow the "High Quality" setting... So I guess if I want to see the full flavor of these DVX100 clips on my monitore, I'll have to spend the 30 bucks.

Marcus:

Thanks. I did not realize that Advanced Mode was the only way Maker could remove pulldown without compression. That makes the workflow decision much simpler.

Hey Marcus I'm curious to know if you could recommend any codecs for the Playback/editing of 24p footage on a PC after you've removed the pulldown.

I know Quicktime is the standard on a Mac...anything other than what Windows offers on a PC?

Playing 24P
 

<<<-- Originally posted by aaronscool : Hey Marcus I'm curious to know if you could recommend any codecs for the Playback/editing of 24p footage on a PC after you've removed the pulldown.

I know Quicktime is the standard on a Mac...anything other than what Windows offers on a PC? -->>>

The editing codec has to be DV-NTSC to avoid recompression. Quicktime for Windows can play back 24P DV in real time, depending on the quality settings, screen size and the speed of your computer.

Sometimes here we use other methods to do motion tests of 24P material. For example, export as a PAL-DV for playback through a PAL deck and monitor, or export at MJPEG-B at 50-75% quality to playback full-size in real time on the computer screen.

I hope that is helpful.

Any idea how to get Quicktime to Preview at better/full resolution in Premiere? When I've tested the reverse pulldown and loaded the clip into a Premiere project setup to use the Quicktime codec the preview window seems to show a very compressed image. (similar to playing a DV clip with the standard QT player and not adjusting the picture settings).

I know this is a bit out of your realm of responsibility, but if you have any advice it'd sure help me plan out how I'm going to edit 24p.

Thanks,
Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by aaronscool : Any idea how to get Quicktime to Preview at better/full resolution in Premiere? When I've tested the reverse pulldown and loaded the clip into a Premiere project setup to use the Quicktime codec the preview window seems to show a very compressed image. (similar to playing a DV clip with the standard QT player and not adjusting the picture settings). -->>>

In Premiere 6 there is a setting (project settings, general, playback) for
high-quality playback and scrubbing. Some computers may not be able to play high-quality mode in real time.

Incidently several people have asked how you can view 24P in real time on
an NTSC monitor. There is a product by ATI (Radeon 7500) which supports a 2nd monitor for an extended desktop. The 2nd monitor can be an NTSC monitor, so you just drag the Premiere preview window to the 2nd monitor and resize to fit. It will show approximately the same contrast and color as if the footage were being played back through the firewire port, although not with the same clarity.

3:2 versus 2:3:3:2 Explained
 

Perhaps I missed it.

Marcus or another, could someone clarify exactly why the in-camera, during-recording-step 3:2 pulldown in the Pana camera (or the reversal of this step) has an effect on the resulting vertical resolution whereas the 2:3:3:2 "24p Advanced" setting in the camera (or the reversal of this step) does not have such an effect and thus can return the frames to their original resolution at 24p (i.e. 23.98p)?

Also, Since Apple has announced support at some point for the advanced mode (which I'll understand after an answer to the above) in FCP, has Adobe been silent on Premiere re the same?

Thanks

Re: 3:2 versus 2:3:3:2 Explained
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Stuart Kupinsky : Perhaps I missed it.

Marcus or another, could someone clarify exactly why the in-camera, during-recording-step 3:2 pulldown in the Pana camera (or the reversal of this step) has an effect on the resulting vertical resolution whereas the 2:3:3:2 "24p Advanced" setting in the camera (or the reversal of this step) does not have such an effect and thus can return the frames to their original resolution at 24p (i.e. 23.98p)?

Also, Since Apple has announced support at some point for the advanced mode (which I'll understand after an answer to the above) in FCP, has Adobe been silent on Premiere re the same?

Thanks -->>>

Both methods have the same vertical resolution. The difference is that 2:3:3:2 can be converted to 24P without recompression. The film frames 1-4 are distributed among the 10 video fields as follows: 11 22 23 33 44 and the video frame with 23 can be removed and the others left as-is without recompression. In 3:2 pulldown the fields are 11 12 23 33 44 and film frame 2 cannot be extracted without uncompressing and then recompressing with a shuffling of the fields (in the DV format fields are not stored separately). This latter method pretty much torpedoes the idea of editing DV without recompression.

By the way to get support for pulldown removal & restore in FCP I think you will have to buy Cinema Tools ($1000?) whereas DVFilm Maker is only $95. I'm putting the final touches on it and it will be ready soon.

Re: Re: 3:2 versus 2:3:3:2 Explained
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Marcus van Bavel :
By the way to get support for pulldown removal & restore in FCP I think you will have to buy Cinema Tools ($1000?) whereas DVFilm Maker is only $95. I'm putting the final touches on it and it will be ready soon. -->>>

I hope the "ready soon" will also include the PC version.

-Rodger

Thanks Marcus -- I think I get it. I guess the assumption is that one will edit in the compressed DV format and thus with 3:2 pulldown a recompression step back into DV format is necessary, rather than just a reshuffling of the cards, so to speak, with 2:3:3:2. Once your program is done with the latter, I believe I read above that you output in Quicktime in some minorly compressed format, no?

And I echo Rodger -- hopefully PC....

Re: Re: Re: 3:2 versus 2:3:3:2 Explained
 

<<<-- Originally posted by marjamar : I hope the "ready soon" will also include the PC version.
-Rodger -->>>


Yes, both the Windows and Mac version will be released soon, sometime around Oct 17th I hope. It's all running but still a bug or two to track down. The documentation on the website may take longer to catch up. I'll post an update here.

Windows version released
 

The Windows version of DVFilm Maker for the DVX100 is now on line and you can order it ($95). The demo version can be downloaded here: http://www.dvfilm.com/maker

The Mac version will be available soon.

Here is a brief description of the 24P options and their use on a Windows sytem:

PRE-EDIT PROCESSING

24P is easier to edit for transfer to film and works better with digital effects than interlaced NTSC, so DVFilm Maker exists to convert DVX100 footage to true 24P before editing. We are also offering a 10% discount off our published rates on DV to film transfers, to registered users of DVFilm Maker that shoot with the DVX100 Advanced 24P mode and use this software for the editing process. The project must be submitted to us as a true 24P Quicktime.

The Pre-Edit modes are used after you have captured the video but before editing. Note that Quicktime is always used for true 24P video because there is no standard for DV-AVI's of 24 frames/sec (and they will make the Windows Media Player bomb out).

All pre-edit processing is done without recompression so there is no loss in quality.

After capturing, open the DV-AVI with DVFilm Maker.


Convert 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 24P

This option reads an NTSC DV-AVI shot in Advanced 24P mode and captured with Premiere or other editing program, and converts it to a true 24P Quicktime. The audio sample rate of the QT is set to 48048 Hz. The resulting QT can be edited with Premiere with the frame rate set to exactly 24 frames/sec and audio rate set to 48048 ("Other"). If you bring in audio from an external source to mix with your camera sound, the sample rate must be jammed to 48048 before importing it into the editor, otherwise the editor will attempt a rate conversion to 48048. The sample rate change can be done with a program such as Sound Forge.

Convert 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 23.976P

This option reads an NTSC DV-AVI shot in Advanced 24P mode and captured with Premiere or other editing program, and converts it to a true 23.976P Quicktime. The audio sample rate of the QT is set to 48000 Hz. Since no special audio rates are used this mode can be somewhat easier to use, as long as your editor has a setting for video frame rate of "23.98" (which is actually 23.976).

POST-EDIT PROCESSING

These modes are used after the video has been edited in a 24P or 23.976P timeline, and it must be converted to NTSC for broadcast or digital projection.

The first step is to export your final cut as a DV-NTSC compressed Quicktime at 24 or 23.976 frames/sec as appropriate and open it with DVFilm Maker.


Convert 24P/23.976P to NTSC 3:2 pulldown.

Converts a 24 or 23.976 frames/sec Quicktime to an NTSC DV-AVI which can be recorded out to Firewire using Premiere or your video card software. The 3:2 pulldown is the smoothest method and simulates film telecine to NTSC.

Convert 24P/23.976P to NTSC 2:3:3:2 pulldown.

Converts a 24 or 23.976 frames/sec Quicktime to an NTSC DV-AVI which can be recorded out to Firewire using Premiere or your video card software. The 2:3:3:2 pulldown is not as smooth, but this the best way to archive a 24P final cut if you had to bring it back in later for more editing.

Flicker removal

Set to a value 0 through 4 to reduce the flicker effect of progressive-scan video converted to interlaced NTSC, by blending pixels in the vertical direction only.

0 is for no flicker removal. 4 is the maximum value.

Film Effects

The simulated film grain and red layer boost features of DVFilm Maker can be used in conjunction with 24P post-edit processing. These options are in the regular options pop-up and can be fine-tuned in the Advanced Options popup.

Other options such as the deinterlacer and motion detector mask are ignored in 24P processing and are turned off automatically when you select a 24P option.

Marcus:

Thanks for the info. A couple of questions:

Per flicker removal. How important is this? What resolution loss involved in removal of flicker on moving shots?

Any possibility of this becoming a capture app - i.e. not having to double drive space (though space is getting pretty cheap).

Finally, does your product work with or compete with Blade 2.0 from insync?

thanks,

<<<<Per flicker removal. How important is this? What resolution loss involved in removal of flicker on moving shots?>>>>>

Some is needed. The loss of resolution (at level 3) is about 50%.

<<<<Any possibility of this becoming a capture app - i.e. not having to double drive space (though space is getting pretty cheap).>>>>

No. It's low cost, broad-use application that is not dependent on a particular capture product or editing program.

<<<<Finally, does your product work with or compete with Blade 2.0 from insync?>>>

Don't know I haven't tried Blade on DVX100 footage. Have you?

Thanks for the info. I guess I'm not seeing the flicker problems with 24P mode. I like the look.

Per Blade, I have not downloaded as the demo for 2.0 was not ready the last time I checked the site.

Put me down for a copy...
 

As soon as I get the DVX100 I will order your program as well. I will be another month or 2 before I am ready to buy the DVX100 though.

Thanks for making DVFilm Maker compatable with 24P Advance Mode pulldown.

-Rodger

Kudos Marcus. Thanks especially for adding the flicker removal. I forgot to ask this as a feature for NTSC output.

I'll likely be purchasing Maker when I get my DVX100 in a month or two.

For people who may have these questions:
1. Premiere on the PC with the QT pro codec will allow you to have a playback rate of 23.976. I believe the same is true on the MAC in both Premiere and FCP. Make sure when outputting from DVFilm Maker that you leave the file in it's default .mov (quicktime) format.

2. You can get realtime TV output from your preview Window in Premiere if you do the following (Works with 24P!):
--Purchase a dual monitor capable card with a TV output. (Nvidia GeForce 4 works for sure but ATI's Radeon 7500 or higher series should also have similar abilities).
--On the latest WHQL or higher NVIDIA drivers set Overlay to FULL SCREEN on your TV output. (Not sure how to do this with ATI but it's basically the process that allows you to watch a DVD on your TV while keeping your desktop on your computer monitor.)

I'm also not sure how to set this up if at all on a MAC but I believe it may be possible.