I am not saying anyone is a liar. I also don't believe anyone thinks someone else is insane.

When I look at the trailer, something is really lacking. Most times it's hard to say what it is. I was comparing it to a porno because although some pornos have good quality, they certainly don't look like film, unless they decide to spend the big bucks and go 35mm.(Which is rare)

When looking at a piece of video I think that it's not so much "Opinion" rather than fact.

Opinions are for politics, religion, and relationships.

We are talking about what looks professional or not. I just converted one of my old analog movies to a quicktime 24 fps clip. Now if only I knew somewhere to host it, rather than putting it on my ftp server. If anyone can let me borrow some bandwidth I'll be glad to put my own work up.

This work was minimal lighting and edited IN CAMERA. I only added some text to it for dramatic effect. It was also mixed already prior to Vegas 4.

It's 35 megs, good quality. If you watch it, you'll notice the work is much more filmic, yet weak on resolution because of the camera. Perhaps I could have done some color correction, but that's not what I want you to evaluate.

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Benkosky :
When looking at a piece of video I think that it's not so much "Opinion" rather than fact.

Opinions are for politics, religion, and relationships. -->>>

...and art, especially art. Doesn't matter if you call it opinion or subjective emotion or whatever.

I believe that most of us at this forum and the rest of the people out there tend to think fiction movies as an artform. And this includes all aspects of filmmaking, including "picture quality" (whatever it means).

You can always discuss the _facts_ about the technical and measurable aspects of a video. But you cannot flame a DV movie's picture quality as crap without seeing if the picture quality supports the overall storytelling.

Many aspects of picture quality are very, very much opinions.

As I think I stated earlier, I dont mean to put anyone down. However, like bob suggested, facts are facts. When it comes down to certain things there is no room for opinion. From a professional standpoint the trailer falls short in almost every catagory. I truley hope that you dont call yourself a professional ken. Do I think you are insane? No, just uneducated. The so eloquently put "porn like" quality is due to its poor lighting, terrible acting, worse cinematography, and un-eventful editing. The trailer feels over dramatic and anti-climactic. The music outperforms the footage and overall production value is just low. Oh and did I mention the awful audio? (not music, dialog)
The scene with the girl is especially bad in terms of lighting and "videoness." I feel like he may have had his master ped too low or he mapped it incorrectly in post. His black point certainly doesnt yeild 16 RGB or 7.5 IRE. Does it need to? Not always, it can be a creative choice. But its too washed out and dark, on my screen atleast (which is properly calibrated)


As bob pointed out, go look at the project greenlight trailers.
They are a good representation of what can be done with video and a relativly low budget. And to those of you who think "well those are the best of the best," is that not what we all strive to be?

"Marc's trailer looks no better or worse than any of the rest"

That just says it all. I certainly hope none of my work looks "no better than the rest."

Josh, dont aim to have your movie fall among the ranks. Aim to be far superior.

The fact is... 95% of what is produced out there is complete garbage. Aim to be that 5%

Im all about power to the little people... Im a little person my self. Im not working on huge budget hollywood movies (yet) but give me a $300 single chip camera and Windows movie maker and Ill make something that will rival this trailer.

-Emery

I have to say, well put Emery. If you're going to bother making movies, look objectively at your work from the most critical aspect.
Good acting can surpass the worst of quality, proof, Blair Witch.
At first they made us believe it was real, although it wasn't it did a good job at creating a realistic atmoshpere of realism.

The acting is what made that film, not style or quality of the picture.

If I act in my own movie and I look at it, and it sucks, I don't throw a trailer together and say what do you think. I trash it. If you are going to bother making films you have to be either the best actor, or the best storyteller, or the best damn cameraman.

El Mariache sucked but it showed that he had talent and it was obvious. I didn't like Dark Star but Caprpenter had talent, thus came Halloween.

Anyways, I'm putting up a small clip of this dumb sketch I did in college. I am making it smaller than I did before because it was simply too huge to download. I'll post the new FTP in the other forum.

Can we please close these threads, i am affraid a few people in this thread are speaking completely out of their ass.

If movies are an artform, then there can't be a wrong or right way to do it, just different ways.

I watched "Friends like these", which i believe Bob Benkosky posted in another thread, Huhmmmm is all i can say, i think a good analogy is starting to creep into a few of the statements people are making here, and that is "Those who can't do, teach."

The thing is, going out and shooting a trailer, editing it, and trying to do something with it says a lot, it says he has got further than 99.9% of all the other movie maker aspirers out there, and it should be encouraged. Never ever put other peoples work down, you may critisise, but not put down because to others eyes your work could be even worse. Get it?

And so what if it dosn't look 100% professional or perfect, go study design, or even simple graphics, an aesthetic can be a wonderful thing that is unique and says something about the author/creator of it, regardless of populous opinion of its' final output.

If you really want to be elitist snob, than i believe you shouldn't be forming opinions or vocalising them at all, because you are so far above us we shouldn't have the right to even talk to you hey?

If you don't like the lighting, why dont you suggest to him a better way of lighting that shot, maybe he can reshoot it and try again, and learn, it is a skill that needs to be nurtured and ultimately learnt, so then you can be creative with it, you got to know the rules before you can break them.

Maybe you could also suggest ways of directing actors, simple hints and tidbits that everyone has to learn, but may not have yet.

If i keep seeing this obvious flaming of someones 'good effort' and their honesty of showing us for some helpful opinions on how to improve their work, i will put in a complaint to the admins, this is an adult place, act like one!

Zac

Emery,
Well, I suppose re-categorization from insanity to "uneducated" non-professional is something.

I hope Marc can glean some tips from your remarks.

In closing my participation in this thread I'll just say this. Whenever someone offers their work for critique by others on a relatively public venue such as this, they expose themselves to a wide variety of opinions and viewpoints. Many come from amatuers and enthusiasts. Some come from professionals, of which we have many among our membership. It's been my observation that the true working professionals here, and in every other field that I've known, offer their critiques in a cordial, constructive and encouraging style. They are secure in their own abilities and accomplishments, and take time to help others. They do not package their criticism in a fist; they package it in an outstretched hand.

My best wishes to you, Emery, and everyone else here on your current and prospective works. May we all have the opportunity to pursue our interests and visions within this field for many years to come.

Ok, man, I give up. You are right Zac. That's exactly what I was trying to do.

Personally in this day and age the "ART" aspect of film will leave you broke in the gutter my friend.

It's all about the $$$$$$$$.

If you want to go make artsy fartsy films, then be my guest, but don't expect to get paid from them.

If I have left out my main criticism.....here it is.

Reshoot the entire thing. Use more wide angles, way more movement, and better lighting, also better frame selection.

I do not pack my critisism in a fist.....it's simply the first thing that comes to my mind, which is not held back critisism. I see it, boom my initial thoughts. Of course he knows he's trying, but man, I started filming with non web sites to help me and no editing equipment. I was forced to do things that no one here has to do to make a decent looking short film or skit.

How about you trying to make credits with no computer.....well, I did it. On and old PC I had a program called Harvard Graphics, which could display simple text graphics. I faded from black onto the computer screen and then faded out. It was hard enough to get the letters straight on the screen.

And forget mixing audio in a decent way. I had to take the original video, hook it up to a small mixer, record the music from CD to tape, or tape to tape, but it had to be perfect in order to sound even halfway decent to be in cue to the movie. If I wanted sound effects, I'd have to mix them in real time as the tape was getting mixed to the other tape.

The reason I am saying this, is because I've been thru alot of trials and tribulations compared to the youngsters nowadays who think they can slam a movie out of their ass. The computer geniuses have it easy compared to how I learned so of course I'm going to be hard on them like I was on myself using no technology. Just suck it up and learn from your own mistakes.

Zac I completely understand where u are comming from. I certainly was never trying to flame any1, nor do i think I did. I comended his effort in my posts and still encourage him to keep creating. However, I dont think its very useful for him to hear "nice job" "good work" "cool trailer." I dont know what level hes at, but truth be told its not gonna win any oscars. I feel its more beneficial for him to hear true honest comments. I think everything i make absolutley sucks and anytime I hear negative feedback from others it only encourages me to try harder.

Bottom line, YES, its an art. No one can tell him what is right or wrong. But I also think no one can argue the fact that there are certain standards of production value that are to be met before we start wondering off into our creative minds.

-Emery

It's also true that just aiming a camera at someone shoudn't be considered art. It's the whole production of choices including music, editing pace and so forth.

He's early in the game here, so of course I think being as honest as possible is better.

Ok, here is what I think, I agree with Ken that one should try to give constructive critsicm as much as possible so that one can learn. On the other hand, my experience is that very few people are honest about these things in the movie industry, except for the audience. So in this case I agree with Bob and Emery.

The audience don't really care wether it's your first movie shot for $10, or your 20th for $20 million, as long as the they get a good feeling and story line. As soon as you shoot a movie to tell a story, it's business, not Art, it is called Show Business, and for a reason, without the business there is no show. If the theater owner cannot sell tickets there is no income and if there is no income you cannot make your next picture, as simple as that.

I also wonder whether the people that are saying nice things actually think so or just do so because they understand how difficult it is to make a movie and therefor cut the new director some slack. The question is, will the new director learn something from it or not, my guess is not. (Of course there will always be people who happen to like that movie, whether the majority does or doesn't) Personally I would prefer an honest opinion compared to a nice one. These are still just opinions but if a lot of people think this way or that way it might be an indication to which way to go. Of course some movies have become classics years after their release, but that is a rarity.

Someone mentioned that he should reshoot I think, I don't agree with that just becuase you cannot put in the same level of enthusiasm as the first time. He definetly should release it, and see the reactions from freinds, family, fellow filmmakers and the audience. After that sit down and analyse the new information, then go out with that new experience and shoot a new movie, and hopefully it will be better.

And with this I am closing this thread. It looks to me that all has
been said regarding this trailer. I was hoping Marc himself would
respond to some of the things thave have been said (if you still
want to do this Marc, send me an e-mail and I will re-open the
thread for you). Thanks for all the opinions on this "touchy"
subject!