Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Patrick, I did not say the 14mm is a bad lens, and I did not say it would not work. But these are not the same lenses in low light, and that is what I'm talking about. Bumping up the ISO can be done with any lens, so why don't we just use kit lenses and save even more money? Because when you increase ISO you lose sharpness, add noise. With a F/2.0 you already are using a lot of gain in a lowlight situation. This also means color rendition changes, and the cameras will be harder to match in post.

Reviewers are not typically running video and matching cameras, and the 14mm used in low light will look a lot different than the 12mm when used in low light. Outdoors the lenses are similar, but in low light, not even close.

Take for example the images below from a review that claims that there is little difference between lenses. The reviewer shot every single test shot outdoors on a sunny day. This is not how you test a lens for wedding video or low light use.

Look at these images below. This is the single shot the reviewer shot in the shade, and the differences are striking, at least to me.

Also, we should keep in mind the 14mm is a pancake lens, which are hopelessly difficult to manually focus while recording. The 12mm is a professional quality lens, the 14mm is not.

I have a 20mm F/1.7 pancake and and the 25mm F/1.4, and trust me the differences between the two lenses are striking.

My friend Johnny is the type of person who will save a dollar by always buying the cheapest, and he always claims the cheaper product he buys is as good or better then something more expensive. What he is really doing is justifying his purchase and being cheap. I can see the differences, he cannot.

When we are talking tools for pro use, yes you can find ways too save a dollar, and if you cut enough corners you can save a lot of money. The route we choose to go is a personal decision. I do not argue that F/2.5 is usable for wedding work. But when I'm running a 25mm F1.4 and a 45mm F/1.8, why in the world would I want a 14mm F/2.5? Next to each other the differences become noticeable and almost unworkable.

Patrick, I'm no authority on lenses; however I shot dozens of weddings this past season using over a dozen lenses, and I can say with certainty there is a significant difference between F/2.0 and F/2.5 in any low light situation.

The argument you pose is valid, but it is almost always put forth by people who do not shoot primarily weddings.

Case in point: When I complained about the 14-140mm and sold it, I got criticized and beat up pretty badly by one guy in particular who claimed the problem was me, not the lens. He loved his 14-140mm, and he raved about how you only have to raise the ISO and the lens would work just fine.

Anyway, a month later he was right back here looking for a better low light zoom. When I politely asked him what changed his mind, he admitted he didn't understand low light shooting to begin with.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Not to beat this issue to death, it should be noted that after working with the 20mm F/1.7, and getting the 25mm F/1.4, I hope to never work using a pancake lens again. They just suck eggs.

I got a lot of decent images with my 20mm pancake, but the autofocus constantly hunts. On the other hand, the focus ring is so close to the body it's hopeless in manual. I loved the 20mm for it's low light ability, because there was nothing else to use that was made for the camera.

As one reviewer stated, if you don't know why you would need the 12mm over the 14mm, then you don't. As wedding shooters, however, we should know.

The last nail in the coffin for me is that the pancakes are butt-ugly. The Zuiko 12mm is beautiful and elegant, and it is a joy to handle. I hope to order the stupidly over priced lens hood one day, but at $90 is just chaps my ass that they didn't include a hood with it.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Let me pose TWO equipment scenarios and let me know which you would chose....

The shooter(s)....My wife and I are considering working as a team..."we've done it before and are still together" hah We both have a "good eye" for a shot and work well together. This would allow her to shoot the bride ready stuff while Im off with the guys (usually a much shorter shoot ha)

At this early point I can afford to go the camcorder route OR the GH2 route. Keep in mind I already have one camcorder the XHA1 and have used both the Canon and GH2 together and matched the color fairly well. After watching Jeff Harper's video using multi-cams, Im convinced more cams take a lot of pressure and worry out of shooting a wedding.

Knowing what I have and with two shooters..would you purchase 2 XA10s, OR 1 XA10 and a GH2?

Thanks to all...
Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Jeff I you re-read William's post, he sums it up pretty well. In my opinion, for basic weddings, I wouldn't even use the GH2 at all, if I several nice videocameras.

I happen to have the GH2s already, and they are great for extra angles, etc. but for the ceremony I want at least two videocameras, not just one. You should want a zoom in the back and a zoom in the front. Think about it. From the rear you want a zoom to frame your shots of the altar, etc, and from the front you want to get a closeup of the vows and rings.

Use the GH2 for your balcony shot, or whatever, but use your videocameras as your primaries. That's what I'd do.

Let's put it this way: I have two GH2s and a GH1, and the XA10. I'm getting another XA10. I don't "need" another XA10, technically, but I sure want one real bad. Having only one videocamera with a smooth zoom is still limiting.

And for getting ready, yes the GH2 is nice, but is that the camera you want your wife to use? Give her an XA10 or your other camera, she can focus on getting the shot instead of worrying about the gear and how to use it.

The reason I like the XA10 is that in low light it has almost no noise. It is not as fast (fast means as good in lowlight) as the GH2 with the right lenses, but I love the look of the footage, and in many cases I like it more than the GH2. It depends on what I'm shooting though.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Yep....I totally agree.

The XA10 is on order. I could get another XHA1(20x zoom) used, but want to stay tapeless.

Ironically, after months of looking into DSLR shooting vs camcorder, Im right back at what I thought was best initially....camcorders. But, Ive learned a lot along the way, thanks to you and others on this forum.

Now more coffee...Im wired. ha

Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

After you get your XA10, you might not want another XH-A1. You'll have the 20x zoom already. That's why I would love to have a AG130, that amazing 22x zoom. You're going to love your XA10, but I admit that zoom is very limiting. BUT the camera is nice and wide, which is another plus.

In my case, I'm keeping my expenses down this coming season. I'm buying another XA10, and a few odds and ends, like a glidetrack, but that' it. I spent most all of last season's money on gear, and I'm ready to make a dollar or two this year.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Harper, I totally get what you're saying, but you can't compare the 14mm to the 14-140mm. At the long range of that zoom your minimum aperture is f/5.6. Trying to compensate with ISO will be horrid. The difference between f/2 and f/2.5 might be going from ISO 160 to 320. Besides, everyone here seems to agree that the noise is negligible on the GH2 at lower ISO's. I will agree, however, that the pancake lenses are ugly and unintuitive. I prefer a lens with a workable focus ring, especially since I have a follow focus on my shoulder rig, and a pancake doesn't have the room to hook that up to it.

I don't primarily shoot weddings, but I do shoot indoor stand-up comedy shows, concerts, club events, etc, so I am familiar with dealing with low light situations. You may have convinced me to get the 12mm, however. I'm considering ditching my Voigtlander for the Panny 25mm and ditching my FDn for the 45mm simply for the autofocus capabilities. The only thing is, judging from the 14-42mm lens I have, I can't stand Panny lenses. They're cheap feeling and plasticky. Not to mention right now all my lenses have a filter thread of 52mm, so I have one Fader ND filter that fits them all. If I switch lenses I'll have to get a new Fader and step up rings :(

Hinson, be sure to hold on to your XHA1. As I said before, I get a fair amount of corporate work where it's necessary that I have a tape based camera.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Patrick, you don't get what I'm saying, exactly. The point of the story about the 14-140 is that I was told to simply raise the IS0, and that's always what people using slower lenses will say. It's human nature. We all do it.

I've attached some samples for you. You be the judge. Comedy clubs, etc are dark, but you are not looking for the same thing in your images that I am as a wedding shooter.

We look for details in the flowers, the colors, the dress, all of the things that are not so important in other stuff.

Keep in mind these photos were shot in natural light, no flash. And the benefit of the lens is not just that it's f/2.0, but how the colors look in lower light. Slower lenses in low light when used with a higher ISO just don't look the same.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Depending on imaging device, higher ISO tends to flatten and distort the colors, usually due to the noise. Sometimes for other reasons.

To be truthful I am looking to create a small two to three camera interview kit that I can take on the subway to local jobs and perhaps the GH2 can do it. The new 45-175mm PZ lens is not bad, you can do a decent on camera zoom with it but it's not wide enough for some situations. Also the DOF is too shallow even at 5.6 for interviews with fidgety subjects. I am impressed enough to try out the 14-45 PZ lens. However Mr. Hinton, don't let my fantasy lead you astray. The way you are going is the best for your sanity and business.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

I shoot scientific video, indoors, often in less than ideal light and with just the 14-140 due to time constraints. Three huge tips here:

1- use "Vibrant" film setting. It alleviates some of the mud of muted colors in low light. Things actually look like they should.

2- try a very moderate, conservative PTool hack. Higher bitrate reduces apparent noise at higher ISO. Larger cards are cheap.

3- NeatVideo. Cheapest $100 I've ever spent. It can clean up some mighty noisy messes, albeit with time.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Kevin,
Thanks for the tip...will keep NeatVideo in mind.
Jeff H.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

I second Neat Video. Great tool.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Change in subject...I know this has been kicked around a lot...and opinions differ across the forum....but

Specific to weddings, what mode do you shoot and why. 60i,30p, 24p, or 60p. ?? I will deliver the video on DVD and most customers will have wide-screen LED TVs. I will be using a GH2,XA10, and possibly the XHA1 for the shoots.

Seems to me the "p" modes are the way to go since you can pull good stills off the frames should you need them.

BTW my XA10 arrived yesterday, still in the box, but hope to try it out today. I will be my first non-tape video camera. I ordered a larger battery (BP827).

Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Jeff, there are lots of opinions on this matter, and you will get lots of suggestions, which can be quite confusing.

Ideally you should be able to determine yourself which frame rates (60i, 30p, 24p etc.) and resolution (720 or 1080) you should shoot in.

The way I determine this is from a practical point of view, not artistic. I want editing and rendering to be hassle free, and I want to produce my product with a minimum of fuss, while maintaining high quality.

You should Keep It Simple and think logically. What modes do you have to choose from to begin with? That is where you start.

Find the "modes" that your cameras all share. The only mode that your three particular cameras all share is 1080 60i. In the first place, for a wedding one should be using matching cameras, but if we don't have matching cameras, we want to match them as closely as possible by running them in identical "modes".

30p and 24p would be of no use for you because your XHA1 doesn not shoot in 24p, and your XA10 and does not shoot in 30p.

In your case, 60i would be the logical choice for you, because all of your cameras have 1080 60i. The XHA1 is going to be the odd man out because your GH2 and XA10 shoots 1920x1080, whereas your XHA1 shoots in 1440x1080, but that is a relatively minor issue which I would forget about for now.

Progressive mode is nice, but not necessary. In my case I can shoot in either 60i or 24p because all my cameras share those settings. If you remove the XHA1 from the equation, then you too can choose between 24p or 60i.

Now given all of the above you could choose to shoot in mismatched modes and then deal with the differences in post. That's not something I would do, because it would just complicate things unnecessarily.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Jeff Harper

Yeah, decided on that Jeff.

BTW...I just received my XA10 today. When I lifted the box I almost threw it over my head....so light. ha
I think my GH2 is bigger than my camcorder now.....a real new experience. haha

If the XA10 proves to satisfy my "school" event needs I will sell the XHA1 and get another XA10. I expect the 12x zoom will not allow me to shoot most school plays, because most around here dont have a center isle to allow setup close enough. Im taking the XA10 to a couple of schools to see what the zoom will do.

The XA10 being so small, should make it a pleasure to work with. Finally going tapeless will be nice too.

Thanks for all the advice,
Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

XA10 is nice. With a shotgun, (even without a shotgun), the audio is awesome.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

At weddings is the "photographer" friend or enemy ?

Im curious to know what relationship you've experienced shooting video along side the photographer....since both are wanting to get the best vantage points for their shots/clips.

Do you get with the photographer and work out a plan at the rehearsal ? The weddings Ive attended always seemed the "photographer" was in charge and the video guy.....well, was just there. :>) It seemed the "priority" was on the photographs, rather than the video.

Im interested in knowing what your final product includes. Do you include the "raw" footage, a edited highlights, as well as a "doc" of the complete ceremony and reception. I assume it varies with the package they select. Id like to "limit" the options in my packages and keep it simple. The less the client has to ponder the better chance of getting the gig. Any advice in this direction is appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

__________________________

BH photo recommends this shotgun mic for the XA10
Audio-Technica - AT875 Short Condenser Shotgun Microphone

The spec calls for a min of 11vdc for Phantom power? Will this work on the XA10 since it only has 7.2 vdc battery...or does the mic contain batteries....did not show details on bh site.

Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

The XHA1 does shoot 24p or rather it shoots 24pf which is 24p inside 60i wrapper. Likewise the it shoots 30pf or rather 30f. The XA10 also shoots 24pf & 30pf. Finally the GH2 with the new 1.1 firmware will also shoot 30p in a 60i wrapper. Your editor will do the right thing with progressive footage in an interlaced wrapper. So you can in fact shoot 24p or 30p with all of your cameras.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

If you are correct about the XHA1 then I was wrong if it shoots 24p. A friend of mine who has shot with it for years apparently doesn't know his camera. We were talking about his cam and he said it doesn't shoot 24p, so I was misinformed apparently. Wrong again on the 30p with the XA10 also.

I don't mixed wrapped and unwrapped footage personally, if Vegas automatically unwraps it I don't know about it, will look into that.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

____________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, I think you are correct. I will get a chance tomorrow to shoot a short clip on all 3 cams, put it in CS5 and check it out. 30P has been good to me...except if one wants smooth slow-mo. Im sure I will wind up getting another XA10 though.

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Jeff Harper. Was wondering, did you use auto focus during this event? Reason I ask is I see some out of focus shots slowly become in focus.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

We get 25P in a wrapper after the 1.1 udate here and its great imo, happy new year.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Which shots? That was my second wedding using the camera, it was pretty rough looking from a technical point of view, but the look of the footage, I thought, was nice.

I remember the shot of the groom was out of focus and came into focus, but I don't remember if it was auto or not. I go back and forth from auto to manual a fair bit. I love that feature of the button on the side of the screen.

The footage of the girls dancing that was so badly out of focus, that was me handheld with a GH2, and using that stinky 20mm which I no longer care for. I think one shot of the girls was the XA10, and another was the 12mm from off in the corner.

If I had been using the 12mm or the 25mm one push of the shutter and I would've been in focus instantly. That 20mm gave me fits trying to focus that night.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Ok, to be more specific, on the GH2s, I never use continuous auto focus, I keep that turned off. I set focus on a fixed objects for the stationary cameras using the shutter button and leave it alone till it needs changed.

So aisle shots were shot using a fixed focus, and the Canon was probably in auto focus, and I probably used the touch screen thingy to focus on his face, but I'm honestly not sure.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Unboxing the XA10 today...

One disappointment... the battery has to be charged in the cam....no external battery charger supplied.
Th paint finish feels like sandpaper....maybe that's on purpose for better grip...minor annoyance.

Im hoping there's a battery charger available..hate to keep the cam out just to charge batteries. Will check BH for charger.

dual charger on order.....cheap of canon not so supply one though...at least the cheap outlet charger.

Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Playing with my XA10 and GH2 today....

I think using 2 XA10s and one GH2 will work for me and wife at weddings. During the ceremony we can cover back and front with the XA10s, and use the GH2 for wide shot.
At reception I will let her shoot with XA10 while I run and gun with the GH2 with 25mm 1.4 set on shutter priority...or even full manual. (been playing with the 25mm f 1.4... video and stills look great)

I think the best mode for me with the GH2- is 30P HBR, Vibrant CC, and S-mode. I can keep shutter speed on 60fps if I set 3200 ISO limit. The cinema mode on the XA10 can be set to 30PF, and with the color set to Vivid both cams match nicely. I can always drop the color in post if its to cartoon-ish.

anyway...trying to learn both cams is confusing, but ya'll just let me ramble on...I will figure it all out soon. haha

Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

The XHA1 and GH2 match up nicely in any mode. I filmed a club's new years event last night in 30p on both cameras. Generally when I'm using both cams for weddings or other events I shoot 'em both in 24p. I always match the footage in post with color correction and it comes out great. All this matching wrapped/unwrapped frame rate talk is nonsense. I do it all the time with no problems.

Also, for the first time I decided to put automatic gain control on as a test with my XHA1 filming the band. The stage lights kept changing, band members walked into and out of the lights, and the camera tried to keep up. Not worth it. This is why I almost always shoot everything fully manual.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Yeah Patrick...
I think we both use Adobe CS5. I think some other NLEs do have more problems mixing.

Im keeping my XHA1 to use for some events where I will need the 20x zoom. But I really like the XA-10 package. The video looks great and I really like the small size...no bigger than my GH2. I think 2 XA10s and my GH2 will fit in my old XHA1 case. : ? )

Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

____________________________________________________________________________________
I hear ya....no AGC for me either on the A1
I do, depending on event, set 3 diff gains on the manual gain switch..normally 0,3db,6db. That way you can cover 3 diff light situations without using AGC with just a flip of the switch. But WB is a problem with colored lights...another job for post work.
Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

As a novice...diving into weddings this season, Im interested in knowing what you feel is a good AUDIO "near-failsafe" setup. I will have two XA-10s and at least one, maybe 2 GH2s to shoot weddings.

Ive always been on pins and needles using my Azden UHF unit..its never failed, but it's scary especially during the ceremony. It uses 6 or 8 AA batteries, and only one has to fail to spell disaster.

Any advice capturing audio will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Jeff, I can't imagine anyone would be thrilled much with the XHA1 after using the XA10. Patrick seems happy, I guess, but I wasn't this past year. I edited several cheapo weddings I sent guys out with XHA1s and the GH1, and the XHA1 look pretty bad to me. Low light performance was so poor I absolutely couldn't believe it. The weddings where I send out a crew using Z1s, FX1s and the GH1 were somewhat better, but not by much.

XHA1 has never been famous for lowlight performance, and I suspect when you start using these cameras and mixing them in a lowlight envioronment, you'll freak out. Of course, if you're not picky I guess it's not a big deal. I can guaran-damn-tee you I will never send an XHA1 or Z1 out on a job again.

I've got a friend/competitor who's been using the XHA1 since he bought it new years ago. He borrowed my XA10 awhile back and he's been trying to dump his camera desperately ever since, he hates shooting with it anymore, can't say as I blame him.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Patrick, I'd like to see some of your wedding work where you're mixing the XHA1, do you have anything posted? Do you lower the exposure on the GH2 to help it match up in the dark, what do you do, just darken it in post?

I bet next to your 0.95 lens it would be touch to use the XHA1 in a dark reception hall, am I right?

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Jeff, I don't have any wedding footage online right now, I apologize. Here are a couple of comedy promos I did for some local comics, though:

Mike & Jiggy Comedy Promo - YouTube

Preacher: Stand-Up Comedy Demo - YouTube

The colors aren't perfectly matched, but close enough. The colors in the first video are a bit too oversaturated. The colors look more normal and even in the second one. All the wide shots of the stage in both videos were done with the XHA1. Everything else was the GH2. I don't lower the exposure on the GH2 at all. I shoot everything as I would normally. As far as a dark banquet hall I just use an on camera light. I have the Canon VL-10Li and a Comer 1800 gen2. All the audience shots outside of the club in that first video used the Canon light because I left the battery for my Comer at home.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Jeff & Patrick...

There's no doubt the XHA1 is a great camera...it just needs more light than the GH2 or XA10.
Ive seen feature "indie" films shot exclusively with the A1 that look fabulous..but....it has to have good lighting.
I just think the XHA1 is /was targeted toward the indie narrative film market, rather than the wedding video shooter. The XHA1 is far more sophisticated than the XA10....it allows a shooter to "totally design" the look he wants for the film. Great audio too.

just sayin : O )

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

We used to own XHA1s & in good lighting the quality is really, really good but in low light it gets grainy very quickly & looks like crap. Recently my wife was editing a wedding shot with a couple of XHA1s & it looks great but the church was very well lit

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Nigel...the video looks really good.

What was used for the shallow DOF clips? I also noticed a camcorder near the end of the video on tripod, that did not look like the A1. Did you use another camcorder besides the A1 also.
Thanks Jeff

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Nigel, not bad. A few of the shots could have used some color correction, however, like the one right after they kiss where you're filming upwards towards the sky as they're walking by. There's a massive blue cast on the whole picture.

Jeff, you don't need a special camera to get a shallow DOF. DOF is affected by distance to subject, focal length, and aperture setting. If you either get right next to your subject, or back up a fair amount and zoom into your subject you will narrow the focal plane. Add to that keeping the aperture wide open and throwing on the ND filter to compensate, and you've got shallow DOF. DSLR's don't have a monopoly on shallow DOF.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

I didn't film it. This was some work that my wife edited for a colleague. As it turns out it seems that I mislead you & in fact this was filmed with two Sony Z1s & not Canon XHA1s as I thought. They are pretty similar though in that they are HDV tape camcorders & therefore only 1440x1080 resolution.

Re: HELP THE NEWBIES THREAD.....please.
 

Patrick, I didn't film it or edit it. My wife edited it for a colleague & I mistakenly thought that it was a good example of XHA1 footage in adequate light. As it turns out Sony Z1s were used & it wasn't the finished graded version of the video which can in fact be found here