Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Yes. Those two things are in the PR. You can thank those who've been vocal critics of Panasonic while fanboys made excuses for Panasonic. You're welcome. There's several flaws in the GH3 firmware that have gone unfixed no doubt as Panasonic was busy on 4K. Frankly, imagine how much better cameras at this price point would be if manufacturers didn't have to chase yet something else from the spreadsheet toting MBAs in product marketing. You know, like a camera that can keep the overlay displays on for more than 10 seconds. Or in the case of the GH3, a small LCD that shows your shooting settings at a glance. Better yet, Custom settings that actually stores exposure and WB settings.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

When it comes to video Jack, I'm not a pixel peeper. If I'm watching my own material on a 64" plasma, I'll watch from about 8'. So no issues regarding that 'issue'. :)

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Yes Ron, that's correct. You can play the AX100 output directly from the camera's HDMI output to a Sony UHD TV. However, I'm not sure if that would work if you did the same thing from the AX100 to a Samsung UHD TV. You would think it would work, but until I see someone try it on a different brand with success, who knows for sure?

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Newsshooter editor Dan Chung talks to Hotrod Camera's owner Illya Friedman about the new Panasonic GH4.
Friedman is one of the lucky few that has already had hands on with the GH4 and is has been selling and supporting Panasonic's GH line for cine use for many years.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

As if the "vocal critics" have anything to do with the improvements on the gh4, there used to be a time where user input was taken into consideration of which the dvx line was a good example but that's a long time ago, the only impression I get now is that new products are either rushed to keep up with competing manufacturers or deliberately crippled to protect any other product, either cheaper or more expensive models they have in their pipeline.

I like the gh4 in it's bare form, only for it's 4k capability which could give me reframing options which can be essential to me as a solo shooter and the fact I can use all my existing glass on it, the few improvements, added features, ease of use when you are a gh3 owner and the low prize (1500 euro in The Netherlands) are just a bonus, but fact remains that once you start adding accessories like the batterygrip/xlr 'brick' thing and a external recorder for your 10 bit 4:2:2 recording option the camera becomes a ergonomical nightmare, still having to add a nd filter and the stupid 30 minute recording limit for EU people doesn't help much either but maybe the vocal critics can make that change for the next gh5 version? :)

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

For me Im looking forward to seeing how a good 4k framegrab from the gh4 will print to a 10x8 inch photo.
Thats a real world application for 4k (the pixel dimensions of the gh4 4k footage translates to approx 12 1/2 inches by 7 1/2 inches at 300dpi)
I would love 4k video from a fullframe camera for this reason but the canon 1dc is out of my pricerange.
This could force the price of the 1dc down a bit though.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

For me, my take on the GH4 is a very nice B camera to my EX1R. I really have no intentions of making it my A-cam unless it's the only camera I have available on a shoot. Plus the MFT form factor is less intimidating than a full frame DSLR and my hulking EX1R IMHO.

200mbps I-frame 1080p60 has got to be what won me over. Having the option of 100Mbps also won me over for that specific frame rate.

I wonder if Sony will make a FS200 and FS800, with respective XAVC-S and XAVC Long-GOP only recording, with the FS800 having standard Long GOP only XAVC and RAW options, and the FS200 limited to XAVC-S. Both of these models would completely exclude I-frame, and only the FS800 would support 4K 50/60p and 4096x2160 at up to 30p.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

You are buying a stills camera. It's only a piece of a camcorder. No surprise you have to add ND filters and bricks to turn it into one. 10 bit 4:2:2 requires space and power that the package just may not support. The 30 minute limit is because immmm yep ...... wait for it .... it's a stills camera. That's the EU law. If it records 30 minutes, it's a video camera (according to the EU) and the price goes up. Firmware changes aren't going to address the missing hardware like ND and XLR. But it does address things like Focus Peaking, Zebras and other GH3 flaws like the disappearing display after 10 seconds. Canon and Sony monitor this forum. Panasonic probably does monitoring. Bugs and flaws are noticed. Raves do nothing. If the GH3 flaws are fixed in the GH4, you can thank a vocal critic.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

I"m sure Panasonic didn't improve every single flaw ever mentioned by a critic so who is to blame then? Unless you are a part of their management team, you will never know what goes on behind the screen, therefore thinking that any voice will have an impact is just guessing. I unfortunately know about the eu limit, but accepting it like it is doesn't make you a fanboy either, it's just some stupid law made by a person on top of a big organisation, and the same stupid decisions are made on managment level of every camera manufacturer based solely on making profit or just not caring what real users out there need. Low prized camera's in the dslr section will always be flawed in one or the other way and forums will be filled with users sharing idea's for workarounds, it's in the nature of the beast. Instead of constantly complaining I rather just start using any "tool" out there that suites my purposes best and if that makes me a fanboy that's fine by me, Currently I"m editing a wedding shot with the help of my gh3 and it looks just great, the disappearing of the info on screen didn't have any impact on that and once my budget allows it the gh4 will probably be the next step, with or without flaws

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

The whole camera could be more ergonomic to videographers. Why didn't they take the guts of the GH4 & put it in a proper camcorder body with ND filters, dual card slots etc as a replacement for AF100?

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

If such a device existed it would be great but while there is an EF to NEX Speed Booster & Minolta MD to MFT Speed Booster there is no EF to MFT Speed Booster.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

The G6 has peaking & it's pretty useless & nothing at all like peaking on a proper camcorder. The GH3 like the G6 already has crude zebras but again they are not a patch on zebras in a proper video camera.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

I agree 100%, Noa. At the prices we've started to see in Europe - upgrading is a no-brainer for GH3 owners, if only for the focus peaking.

I am not ecstatic over the in-camera 8-bit, but DCI-standard 8-bit 4K will be better than my GH3's 8-bit 1080p. And then there's the 1080p overcranking...


Good poker players and stock traders ride winners and cut their losses on losers. Smart businesses look at sales figures and do the same thing.

Not to say they won't upgrade the AF100 at some point, but the consumer division has the momentum right now.

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

You should probably thank the fanboys for not getting that :) All joking aside, there still might be a af100 replacement coming up, I would be surprised if Panasonic would give up this model in favor of the gh4 formfactor.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

There's actually some truth to that. I spent 30 years in product development of a large technology company. I've seen this movie many times. Even tho it's the proper form factor for those who know and it's what videographers want, an upgraded AF100 will negatively impact GH3/4 sales. This gives the GH3/4 stills product people power over the AF100 (when was the last time Jan from Panasonic broadcast posted here? ANSWER: March 2012.

In the big picture, this is Panasonic's to lose and will take a gutsy executive to make it happen. Sony and Canon have their more expensive FS and C cinema cameras to protect so the FS100 and C100 will remain crippled. Panasonic doesn't have more expensive cameras to protect; only the GH3/4.

A new Panny AF100 has the potential to be the only low end Cinema camera with ND, good LCD, good VF, 50MBS recording and 422 Codec. These are the things people refer to as crippled aspects of the FS100 and C100. A new AF100 would take sales from FS100 and C100 as well as GH. The low end cinema market segment is theirs to take. But as long as the GH stills people have the revenue power, customer surveys and customer satisfaction numbers, they'll keep the AF people down and milk the GH line for revenue (ergo minimal firmware updates). After a year from release, this is all you got in the 1.2 firmware [insert sound of twirling finger]:
1) "Low Light AF" is added that makes it possible to set focus on the subject in low-lit situations (-3EV).
2) "Silent Mode" is added which suppresses electronic shutter, shutter sound, operation sound and flash emission with a single setting.
3) "Exposure Comp. Reset" is added which resets the setting of exposure compensation to ±0 whenever the camera is turned off or the shooting mode is changed.
4) Performance of AF is enhanced in use with H-PS14042 and H-PS45175.
5) Connection problem with Apple Mac computers via Wi-Fi is fixed.

Not even a fix that lets you stop recording over wifi (you can only start it and let it run on a timer). What a joke. From my read, everyone fed up with using DSLRs for video are going to the C100. If Canon upgrade the CODEC, it'll hit GH and FS100 sales hard; except for the fanboys. :-)

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Jan Crittenden now works more in Sales, rather than product development, for Panasonic. This may be why you don't hear from her on these forums anymore.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Does anyone know yet from any of the new reports if the 10 second disappearing information problem is still there? The consensus was they did that because they were worried about "burn in" with the OLED displays. Still has the OLED displays, supposedly better ones. Or if it is no longer an issue maybe that was BS in the first place. Zebras would not be a problem in that scenario.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

I think 4K on the 1D C is a 1.3x crop of the full frame sensor.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Burn in may be a big problem if it happens on a proper display device such as a plasma TV - but so what in a camera monitor?

The purpose of such is solely to aid viewfinding and control - not for "proper" viewing. It seems pointless to protect it from burn in (assuming that is the case) if it negatively impacts it's main function! A bit like having a high performance car and never driving it above 50mph in order to keep the tyre wear down......

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

If there's burn in, the LCD is not fit for purpose. Shame on Panasonic. Stills camera designers at play.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Les: That's a mighty big if. To quote the incomparable George C. Scott from Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove, "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that until all the facts are in."

David: It *was* a big problem, but that's from a very long time ago. One of the main reasons why I bought the Panasonic PZ850 (mentioned earlier in this thread) was due to the fact that the issue of burn-in on a plasma set by the 2008 generation was practically non-existent. I didn't have to bother with a break-in period, and now, years later, there's never been the slightest hint of it.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

My post was too concise. This issue was discussed elsewhere early last year and if memory serves, someone claimed a Panasonic marketing person responded to the criticism of the 10 second displays with the line that it was to prevent burn in.

If burn in is the problem, then to David heath's point they chose a part that isn't fit for purpose. It's not a TV, it's a camera.

If burn in isn't an issue, then why not fix it in the next firmware release (there's been two).

If they don't fix the single most complained about flaw (a seemingly incredibly simple thing to do) then (to my point) they really don't care about customer satisfaction and have a naive implementation for video.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Yes, another bit of evidence the product team was dismantled and the AF100 simply being milked for what it can return on the initial investment.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Based on the GH4K's features I wouldn't doubt at all if Jan Crittenden had some input to its development.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Yes, you are correct.

-- peer

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

OLEDs have been used by Sony in some of their cameras for the last couple of years. They don't time out and they don't suffer from burn-in. It would seem odd to me that Panasonic is doing that out of fear of burn-in.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Good info. Didn't realise that. We have a way to go yet but getting closer to >4k raw video from a full frame sensor. That'll turn the event industry on its head for sure.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

The point I was trying to make is that whether or not there's burn in (and I'm quite happy to go along with Chris that it's largely something of the past) then what's the problem in *a camera viewfinder*? OK, if it did burn in a bit, so what? Better that than having a negative effect on ability.

Which leads towards the conclusion that the issue has nothing to do with burn in. A] It's not likely in the first place. B] So what if it did?

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Interesting Panasonic GH4 presentation https://www.dropbox.com/s/cn0rev9fy5...esentation.pdf

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Hi Mark

Think the link didn't copy and paste correctly so posted it again here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cn0rev9fy5...esentation.pdf

Interesting PDF, I think the only thing though it did confirm for me was the sensor uses pixel binning rather than line skipping when recording video.

Regards

Phil

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Link has now been taken down. Sorry that I didn't save the .pdf.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Wish I could train you guys into uploading .PDF attachments to this site.

Call me old fashioned, I guess, but whenever I find something interesting via DropBox (or similar), I always right-click and "save as," and from that point it's just a matter of clicking "manage attachments" in the post reply box here on the forum.

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Here is another link to it http://www.personal-view.com/logo/GH4_Presentation.pdf

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Thanks for uploading it, Mark!

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Two important points from this slideshow:

1. The battery life is worse on the GH4 than the GH3. (540 on the GH3 vs 500 on the GH4)

and

2. The AC adapter notes a 4K/60p mode for the interface module.

Could it be that this little thing can actually pull off 4K/60p via 4x3G-SDI?

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Yes, I took it one step further. A competent designer would conclude B). After concluding that and quality testing still failed the part due to burn in, then the part isn't fit for purpose. Conclusions left to the reader....

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

The fact that the screen info disappears after a few seconds and that you can't change that behavior if you wanted is pain for many users for sure and a weird functionality decision by Panasonic, I"m sure a simple firmware update could have fixed this. I don't find it much of an issue as I prefer a clean screen while recording and I can get the screen info back when needed but I can imagine that for many others, depending on what type of monitoring you do (like audiolevels) it can be a critical flaw.

Now for the reason why there are more then one reason found back so it's some guessing what the real reason was, one reason I found back was: "The display loses info in order to save battery power." and teh second reason I found back was: "Since OLED TV is made from organic LED material there may be burn in issues, though not as bad as the first plasma displays."

Has it been confirmed that the gh4 has the same problem?

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Overall the specs of GH4 is impressive.I wish if there is 2 versions of this camera.
One with 4K capable @ the already announced price and a stripped down version
with 1080p only with an upgrade option to 4K to future proof @ a lesser price
would have attracted many. This is the marketing strategy adopted in Arri Amira
though it is 2K only.

Rajiv

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Hi

Sort of related to burn in, OLED doesn't age too well. The main problem is with the Blue pixels, these age much faster than green or red, and is often why they are bigger, to try and balance this out.

Usually with non-critical devices the OLED screen is biased towards blue, then as blue ages and becomes dimmer the screen transitions towards being yellow. Starting it much more blue, it takes longer before this becomes an unpleasant yellowing. As people we are conditioned mainly by marketing that a bluer white is a whiter white, so we don't object to the blue bias nearly as much as we do the yellow.

With something much more colour critical like a camera you can't really do this bias as much, so the next option is to just ensure the screen isn't on for long periods.

Incidentally this is the main problem with OLED TVs and getting their lifespan up to an expected level. I'd rather stick with LCD.

Things improve all the time so hopefully they have lifted this restriction on the GH4.

Regards

Phil

Re: Press Release: Panasonic Announces 4K Mirrorless DMC-GH4
 

Phil, I think they've largely overcome that problem with OLEDs. It was a problem a couple of years ago, but not so much today. Sony has been using them for a couple of years and I haven't read a single report of premature OLED wear.

Aside from that, the amount of wear an OLED would get in a camera wouldn't be nearly the amount that an OLED TV would see. So I doubt this is much of an issue.