Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

What is your exact workflow for turning an image to grayscale? How does this process, by simply turning the image grayscale, invoke more information than splitting the video into individual R, G, and B elements and viewing each independently?

Doing a splitter node in Resolve does not yield any difference between LongGOP and Intra as you watch each channel isolated.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Please give a single, specific example of where one can actually see these GOP calculations happening in the video you uploaded.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Yes, it’s a new mode that has been added, not a previously existing mode that has been updated.

Not really sure I’d ever want to shoot in that, being 4:2:0.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

So you see pixel clusters and shapes moving around the flat, non detailed portions the black and white image I uploaded? This is part of the Long GOP process. It's recycling "crumbs" from frames before each other.

And no, before you complain..."crumbs" is not a legal, technical, or "official" MPEG Long GOP term. It's my very own created word to describe the data carry over.

Haven't you ever taken a ProRes HQ master file, then compressed it into H.264 or MPEG 2 and re-applied that new copy (frame sync'd) on top of the original master with a phase inverted filter to reveal (in a gray scale) the Long GOP artifacts that the original master does not have? I'm pretty sure everybody has done this before for fun.

CT

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

What is your workflow exactly for applying this phase inverter filter? What is the software you are using and what is the filter?

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Any NLE can invert a waveform. You are flipping the wave "inside out" Vegas 14, Premiere, anything.

Take two virtually identical sine waves. Make even the slightest frequency change or phase shift to one, then invert it and apply back it to the other. The parts that are in phase will disappear because of cancellation. They only parts that exist will be the EXACT elements that were altered in the second one.

It's called "phase cancellation". Even phase canceling color channels and blending the inverted waveform will wipe out wave shapes and reveal others.

I know that a man as smart as you Gary, already knows this. So why are you asking me to explain it to you?

Time for bed!

CT Zzzzzzzz

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

What is the problem with that?

This "open gate" 5K mode takes almost the full sensor resolution. The full sensor has just as much (but differently formatted) information as 4:2:0, there is simply not more information available.

When you scale 5K 10 bit 4:2:0 video to 75% to make it UHD you get an approximate equivalent amount of information to 4:2:2. Theoretically you could even improve the bit resolution!

Plus you have more flexibility in framing in case you need to because you record in 4:3! And 2.0 offers aspect ratio markers in display!
Also this mode effectively gives you an equivalent 400Mbps Long GOP mode!

This is definitely my favorite mode to record in, and the colors look fantastic!

If you have not tried it I highly recommend it!

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Actually, you can’t. Better to let the GH5 do the processing. There is no contest between recording 4K 4:2:0 and downscaling into 1080 (for the theoretical 4:4:4) and capturing in 444 RGB mode. The real world results simply aren’t there.

Also, bit precision absolutely will not increase with a downscale at all. That’s done at the capture level, even before debayering.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

There is nothing theoretical about it.

4:2:0 4K color (CbCr) information is already at 2K, so by just down scaling the luminance (Y') 50% you automatically get 4:4:4. What is incorrect is that the bit depth increases 4 times as well (due to oversampling), actually only the luminance component increases the bit depth with a factor 4, the color info actually remains at 8 bit because it is actually untouched with the down scaling.

Feel free not to use the 5k mode, I think you miss a lot of opportunities. :)

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Yes, the open gate mode is awesome and even at 4:2:0, you still have a huge amount of chroma resolution. However, the bit depth cant change. I see what you are saying about pixel scaling but whenever you take two or more 10bit values and mix them or sum or bin them, you will always get a new 10bit value.

Now if you took one pixel with a 10bit value and combined it with another pixel that had a 12bit value then you could achieve a new 12bit sum. But you could mix and match all the 10bit values you want together but you will always end up with a new 10bit product.

Here is another way to visualize this. Imagine millions of pixels but each one having only a 3 color scale. (3 color shade possibilities)

0 = pure black
1 = middle grey
2 = pure white

You could mix millions of these 0, 1 and 2 pixels as much as you want in a 32bit color space but you will never get any shade more than black, grey and white. You would need to introduce a value that is "outside" of that 3 shade scale to offset these 3 numbers to produce values that are beyond 0,1 and 2. (like tossing in a "1.3" grey pixel or a "0.5" grey or a "1.9" white pixel...but those pixels you just dont have)

But yeah, I have seen some fantastically detailed videos shot with the full 4:3 sensor. Check this one out its CRAZY detail. You can literally make out faces of people way off in the distance.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

There is if you cannot demonstrate any benefit in color correction over 444 captured directly. My own internal tests do not demonstrate any gain with common workflows.

Opportunities like what exactly? First, the 5K mode is 4:3, unless open gate is making a comeback, that's already a non-starter.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

The YouTube version you linked to isn't even 4K. It's only in 1440p. The GH5 already uses the entire sensor to downscale and does a good job at it, far more than YouTube's VP9 compression, so unless you have a direct download source for this video, the link itself absolutely does not show an incredible level of detail.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Gary, I think there is not much of a point in having a discussion with you, it seems your teacup is already overfull!

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Well, I wasn't quite looking for a discussion. I made a point that you won't see a difference if you break 4:2:0 in 4K, it will still break the exact same way even if you apply the same correction after a downscale to 1080 in a theoretical 4:4:4 mode. I have done this testing. If you have as well, and got a different result, I'd love to hear about it.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Not true.

For instance if you have four sensors they could record 0, 0, 0, 1 the resulting oversampled value would be 0+0+0+1 = 0.25. You would get a resulting 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75 and 1 as all possible values.

A sensor has a margin of error in recording a signal value which is called the S/N ratio, if you multisample values multiple times (at the same time) you increase the S/N ratio and thus the bitdepth.

By the way here is a 'grey' image using only black and white pixels:

https://i1.wp.com/nikles.it/wp-conte...Untitled-1.png

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

I get the math, I get you can do it with a grayscale image. However, "real world results" means, what benefit can you gain from an actual recorded piece of video in color correction, UHD 4:2:0 vs 1080 4:4:4. And the benefit in grading doesn't translate over. I have done this test.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

I know, you only lecture.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

You have more than enough opportunity to demonstrate that I'm wrong, just like Cliff does. However, you want to complain about my tone and that I don't just take your word for it.

I'm not interested in just taking your word for it. I want to back up your claims with evidence. You won't even respond about if you've tested this yourself. How am I supposed to respect your opinion given that?

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

That's interesting Cary. It's confusing,..but interesting! But how would that result in real world color? I'm guessing that would produce arbitrary weird colors???

That's very interesting! I wonder if anybody has actually scaled like this and calculated bit depth like that successfully. I'll check you link in a bit. ;-)

CT

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

I could make the statement; "It's a beautiful sunny day here in Miami Florida"

Gary would automatically say; "Nonsense,...display for me your exact GPS coordinates, barometric pressure readings, verified accurate temp readings, visibility distance measurements, humidity metrics and wind speed data from a source I trust."

Until then, he will argue with you until the end of time that you are speaking total B.S.!

CT lol....;-)

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Gary, this is a full 8k upload that is playable in this manner on both my MAC and Windows PC.

Check that link again and verify that your statement above is factually correct.

If you are not able to see this in 8K, than your YouTube playback workflow is CLEARLY flawed or broken. In case you are not aware, the adds before the video are not in 8K

CT ;-)

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Then you should have no problem describing your Channel Mixer workflow that you claim shows the inner workings of LongGOP, and you should be able to use that magical workflow to correctly identify the Intra from the LongGOP compression clips from video at this link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...URxNkxvTTJXX28

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it "magic"....it's nothing special.

It's just plain old fashioned "science". I'll look at it when I get home tonight.

CT ;-)

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Oh I do understand it. You're creating a grayscale image from a Channel Mixer plugin and something else (because Channel Mixer alone doesn't totally match what you did, but it's close enough, including the artifacting and the lines).

However, since I've already taken that workflow and applied it to those clips, I can already tell you you're not going to be able to differentiate the Intra vs the LongGOP. So I look forward to your excuse.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

My mistake, I was watching in Safari and not Chrome. Chrome is what's required.

However...

And my point still stands. You don't have an 8K display, the GH5 is still using the entirety of the sensor and doing a hardware downscale. So on your Mac (not an acronym) and Windows box, you're not actually seeing any benefit over 4K. This video is mostly about the lack of motion blur.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Here's a clip for you, the first is UHD 8-bit 4:2:0 Slog2/Sgamut from back when I owned the A7R Mark II.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...0FGLThFMkY0NTg

The second clip, downscaled with the highest quality scaler out of DaVinci Resolve Studio 14 into 1080 ProRes 12-bit 444.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...jcxcVVCWFFpRTg

Now what difference can you illustrate between these two? Or is this workflow not correct? If it's not correct, what should I have done differently?

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

So I'm guessing you are not impressed by the detail...even on your 4k monitor?

I would recommend that you delete that Safari/Chrome 4k player mistake. You don't want people around here to think you don't know what you are doing and that's bad for your rep

Just lookin' out for you, Gary ;-)

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

That doesn't worry me in the slightest. Everyone makes mistakes. I own up to them.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Just got a Delkin v60 64gb card.

Shooting 400mb Intra frame, 10Bit, 24p.

First 2 test clips I recorded for 1m30 each. All fine.

Then subsequent 3 clips all stopped recording around 25 seconds.

I noticed that those last 3 clips were recorded when the battery had dropped down to 1 bar.
Also that playback on the camera (at 1 bar battery) resulted in a drop of sound every second. Playback on PC has no issues with sound.

Will do further tests when I've got a full battery.

Edit - Tests on a full battery ran perfectly. 8 minute clip without problems.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Are you using Panasonic OEM batteries for these tests? I'm interested in the results because I'm looking at Delkin 256GB V60 cards to use for Intra, but it seems odd that a low battery would cause issues (though not impossible).

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

Was using the official battery that came with the camera.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

A review on Amazon says slot 1 is uhs 2 and slot 2 is V90.

Any truth in that?

Edit: playback in slot 2 eliminates jumping so certainly appears to be reading faster.

Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0
 

I believe they are both the same. The important thing is the card speed both are UHS 2. V60 is on the limit I think as that means a minimum of 60MBps second write speed or 480 Mbs. I think you may find that a V90 card will be more consistent as any variation does not give you a lot of margin.V90 would be 720Mbps write minimum. Which I think Panasonic states as the preferred card.