Re: Why Not Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Pete Wilie : I wonder why a storage solution like the JVC GY-DV5000U uses was not considered: Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD -->>>

Who says it wasn't considered? And who says they won't do it?

Remember, NO DETAILS have been released yet! We don't know what the camera can do, and we don't know what it can't do, and we don't know what accessories will be supported and which ones won't.

Maybe they'll have a removable hard-disk accessory exactly like what you speculate about. Maybe it'll be built-in. We don't know yet -- no details have been released at all, other than that it will have P2 (but that doesn't mean it will or won't have tape or HD), it will be DVCPRO50/25/HD, and it'll be priced "competitive with the Sony", and that it'll have 24p recording (but that doesn't mean it'll only be 24p... it could be 60p as well, for all we know).

Which is really to say -- we don't know anything yet. And we won't until April 18th.

Re: Re: Why Not Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD
 

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : We don't know yet -- no details have been released at all, other than that it will have P2 (but that doesn't mean it will or won't have tape or HD), it will be DVCPRO50/25/HD, and it'll be priced "competitive with the Sony", and that it'll have 24p recording (but that doesn't mean it'll only be 24p... it could be 60p as well, for all we know).

Which is really to say -- we don't know anything yet. And we won't until April 18th. -->>>

I have been confused for most of this thread. If we **KNOW** that it will have P2 and be DVCPRO50/25/HD, don't we **KNOW** that it will have tape storage? Isn't DVCPRO a TAPE format, and aren't DVCPRO25/50/HD three different implementations of a TAPE format? How much more clearly could it have been said without a picture (or a video)?

> I have been confused for most of this thread. If we **KNOW**
> that it will have P2 and be DVCPRO50/25/HD, don't we
> **KNOW** that it will have tape storage? Isn't DVCPRO a
> TAPE format, and aren't DVCPRO25/50/HD three different
> implementations of a TAPE format? How much more clearly
> could it have been said without a picture (or a video)?

We believe... well --I beleive, and I think some other of us may believe-- that it is unlikely Panasonic can go below US$10k with a tape transport that does higher data rates than 25 Mbps. 25 Mbps tape hardware is mass produced and thus very cheap, and that is probably why Sony, JVC et al took all that trouble to cram HD MPEG into that rate. However, thanks to the PC revolution and it's constant demonstration of Moore's law in action, a PC-card interface is far cheaper. So it makes sense to put both a MiniDV tape drive and a PC-card interface (same thing as P2 it seems) in the same camera. You can shoot DV out of the box, read your old tapes and perhaps even assemble on the card. AND you spend the extra $, pop in a card and have instant HD capability, without the MPEG2 compromise.

Guess what Sony will do next: the same thing, but instead of solid state they will go optical. XDCAM is great, but a PC card interface is much more versatile, and opens the way for the day when solid state is cheap enough to compete with tape and hard disks. It future-proofs the camera you buy today.

I think Panasonic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they don't allow the interface to be usable by third parties. It would be as if Sony made their cameras only compatible with Sony DV tape. Doesn't make any sense.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : It would be as if Sony made their cameras only compatible with Sony DV tape. Doesn't make any sense. -->>>

Actually, even though standard mini-DV tapes will work in the FX1 and Z1, Sony strongly suggests, to minimize potentially catastrophic dropouts, that you use their tapes specially formulated for HDV.

Who says they don't? Who says there won't be 80-gb hard disks in use? Nobody's ruled that out, or confirmed it or whatever. There very well could be such a thing. And who says there's not a FireStore type of device coming, that'll let you record three hours on an interchangeable $60 hard disk?

I'm not saying there is, all I'm saying is... people are getting worked up over these "limitations", and so far nobody's confirmed that there ARE any limitations.

As for 4 minutes, that would only be if you were shooting 720/60p or 1080/60i. We don't even know if the camera will support those frame rates. All we know is that it'll support 24p, and at 720/24p it could get 10-12 minutes on a 4gb P2 card.

Darnit, I wish April would hurry it's Krispy Kreme-munchin' fat arse up and come around already! We're all dieing here! =D

> Actually, even though standard mini-DV tapes will work in the FX1
> and Z1, Sony strongly suggests, to minimize potentially catastrophic
> dropouts, that you use their tapes specially formulated for HDV.

That's right, and it makes sense because dropouts are more critical with HDV than with DV, and it's fair because Sony doesn't make you use their tapes, it only makes the suggestion and markets their new, better, more expensive option so we can decide if we want it or not. That's fine with me. It would be however something totally different if Sony put electronics on the camera and tapes that kept you from using tapes from other manufacterers. I can barely stand what they are doing with batteries and the dumbing-down of the FX1. I would not buy such a crippled camera. And I will not buy an HDX100 or HDX400 if only Panasonic cards can be inserted into it's PC-card slot. Period.

Jack, not sure if you saw this.

But here's a report about the FCP 5 or its what is rumored to be happening. My hope is that the HDX will be out not long after NAB.

That's why the rumors. It makes sense they have to give the trade magazines time to get their mags ready for the NAB issue.

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0502fcp5.html

FCP already has the codec and I also keep hearing about H.264 or something like that when Tiger hits around June.

I think it keeps the quality of HD but it'll use up a lot less space.

Hmmmm, thanks for the interesting info Gary! I've always been interested in FCP, but I didn't think it was worth it having to buy a Mac and all that especially when I could get a faster PC setup with Adobe Premiere or some other NLE's, but lately I've been contemplating it. I am stuck with Premiere 6.5 after all, so I could pretty much go any way as far as NLE's go.

Though, I wonder, if Apple's showing off FCP 5, then won't the other NLE makers (besides AVID which we all know has AVID HD) be introducing new versions as well?

This is such an exciting time!

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Hmmmm, thanks for the interesting info Gary! I've always been interested in FCP, but I didn't think it was worth it having to buy a Mac and all that especially when I could get a faster PC setup with Adobe Premiere or some other NLE's, -->>>

Unless that other NLE is Avid, it doesn't matter how much faster the PC setup is. FCP on even an older Mac will beat it for versatility just about every time.

I've used Vegas and I've used Premier and I've used Edition, and I've gotten pretty good with them. They're all fine programs - but none of them are FCP.

<<<-- Originally posted by Joshua Starnes : Unless that other NLE is Avid, it doesn't matter how much faster the PC setup is. FCP on even an older Mac will beat it for versatility just about every time.

I've used Vegas and I've used Premier and I've used Edition, and I've gotten pretty good with them. They're all fine programs - but none of them are FCP. -->>>

Well, yeah, Joshua. That's what I mean. FCP has just been shown to be so flexible that you can do anything with it! Look, they've used FCP for so many recent big-hit movies such as Cold Mountain, Lord of the Rings Trilogy, and I think even The Matrix Trilogy if I'm not mistaken. So of course I'm interested. This whole HDX100 thing helps a lot too because now my NLE choice isn't HDV-limited so now FCP has come back into the fold for me because it supports just about every codec available and can edit film to boot. But aren't we getting a little off topic now? ^_^

I was thinking, what does DVCPROHD bring to the whole distribution question? Will we be able to put our HD movies onto DVD or will we still have to wait for HDVD and Blueray a'la the whole HDV conundrum? At least a half an hour per disc?

panasonic are touting blu ray as being the archiving medium for DVCProHD... so yes, most likely blue ray or HDDVD will be he delivery option...

Yeah, DVD is an SD delivery medium, so if you want to distribute your content to end users, you'll still need to wait for HD-DVD (or blu-ray) to reach mass adoption levels by the consumers.

Or, get it broadcast. Or downrez and master to standard-def DVD.

Or maybe internet download/broadcast will catch on... getting HD content to the end consumer is still a question mark as to how it'll be accomplished.

> getting HD content to the end consumer is still a
> question mark as to how it'll be accomplished.

I think this is a question that is being answered. HD broadcasting is already a reality in the US and the 'net thing will also catch on, especially when deployment of IPv6 and multicast is widespread.

The question which worries me is whether the consumer will notice or care about the difference. I know HD is better, you know HD is better but for many consumer the awesome quality of DVD compared to analog broadcast is enough, and I'm afraid they will not pay for the added value of HD.

I agree with this. You would be suprised at what percentage of the population thinks this new generation thing of dvd's is actually high definition media.

I think we are going to have alot more trouble trying to convert people over to hd than we did getting them from vhs to dvd.

I'm not sure if I agree. I see it like the video game industry whcih I believe is making as much money as the film industry these days, taking Nintendo for example. Compare an original NES to VHS, when Nintendo brought out their next cosole it took a lot of people a while to switch over but now a game system only has a four year life span with a new System costing around $500 and games $70 (Canadian). DVD got people used to the idea of spending money to get a higher quality experience and if HDDVD and Blue Ray are marketed well people will probably buy both without an issue. In video game terms it would be like owning a Playstation and an Xbox.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : > for many consumer the awesome quality of DVD compared to analog broadcast is enough, and I'm afraid they will not pay for the added value of HD. -->>>

Well, that's why we have to say our thanks to the gods of marketing and sales, who have been talking people into chic, stylish, and trendy (yeah, I know all 3 mean the same thing) flat panels. In a traditional American rush to "Keep up with the Jones's" Americans are looking more and more to HDTV sets and they're realizing that DVD don't look as good as it used to anymore... I know that the market saturation isn't quite there yet... but neither or the HD disc formats have even released a product yet. My lovely parents (who, God bless 'em) are the most technically backwards people alive, and aren't that discerning when it comes to video quality (Oh the horrors of VHS I endure when I visit them...) have said that when they're current TV craps out, they will at least get one of the $800 HD CRT's that are out there... HDTV saturation is coming (in America at least)--the marketing machine is hard at work, and from conversations I've had with people of all income categories, it's working... which means they'll be clamoring for some type of HD disc format...

Just my thoughts...

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I will try again: if the AJ-HDX100 and AJ-HDX400 have P2 slots,

Hi Ignacio,

The HDX400 does not have P2 cards. There are three, this new little one, the AJ-SPC700, to be introduced at NAB, which is a shoulder size camera, that is DVCPRO only, no24P and the AJ-SPX800.

>Perhaps that IS the Panasonic strategy and we will see P2 cards with IBM microdrives inside instead of the more robust solid state versions of the cards for professionals.

I don't believe the micro drives have the write speed.

>Of course, just like Sony makes you use their batteries with some camcorders, Panasonic could keep us from using anything but a Panasonic-branded mega-$ card. But I hope they don't do that.

As with any commodity, all it takes is consumer demand. It took almost three years before Maxell started to make DVCPRO tape. There are over 100 manufacturers that make SD memory, and over 500 that utilize it. It is a matter of time and demand.

Best regards,

Jan

Thanks Jan.

There was a quote on camcorderinfo from Jan at Panasonic saying it would not have tape or any moving parts. Just from experience as well as gut feeling, I'll go out on a limb and say, unless it's not going to be released for a year or more after NAB, it's a big mistake. It's definitly the future, but the future can be too early. I hope I'm wrong, it sounds awesome. Panasonic has done so well with the DVX100. So much of it was from people that could barely afford it, but did what they had to to get it. Going by the info I had, not just speculation, even if it's $5000, with a couple of cards, you're talking the $15,000 range. I think, again, unless it's not released for awhile, that for a long time, more people will be rentig than buying. That's definitely not the case with the DVX100.

Howdy from Texas,

<< There was a quote on camcorderinfo from Jan at Panasonic saying it would not have tape or any moving parts. >>

Actually she said that right here on DV Info Net. See the first post in this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=39453: "...this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens."

Regarding media costs, an 8GB P2 array of four 2GB SD cards will allow for 32 minutes of DVCPro, 16 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 8 minutes of DVCPro HD without breaking the bank and would make a good starter solution. It shouldn't take too long for a 16GB P2 array of four 4GB SD cards to become affordable, and that would give you more than an hour of DVCPro, over half an hour of DVCPro 50 and 16 minutes of DVCPro HD.

> I don't believe the micro drives have the write speed.

They don't by themselves. They would need to be combined into an array inside the PC card. But the 5 GB drives from Toshiba seem to be fast enough, and toshiba has much larger drives in the same form factor so there is the potential for much larger capacities:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=316612&is=REG

8Gb will do me just fine
 

"an 8GB P2 array of four 2GB SD cards will allow for 32 minutes of DVCPro, 16 minutes of DVCPro 50, and 8 minutes of DVCPro HD"

Well, seeing as this camera is recording to P2 cards instead of tape, it's conceivable that there would be no reason to record the duplicate frames the Varicam records.

(I realize this has already been talked about a bit here).

If that's true, then when shooting at 24P you should actually be able to get about 27 minutes of DVCProHD footage on an 8Gb card.


By the way, is DVCPro50 actually shooting 50mbs when shooting 24P?

Seems odd that the datarate on HD would be 10mbs lower than SD.


PS -
By the way Jan, thank you very much for your contribution to these boards. It's safe to assume that you're a very busy person, and the fact that you take the time out to post and reply here is GREATLY appreciated.

<< By the way Jan, thank you very much for your contribution to these boards. It's safe to assume that you're a very busy person, and the fact that you take the time out to post and reply here is GREATLY appreciated. >>

I second that emotion!

Cheers,

Re: 8Gb will do me just fine
 

Yes, because DVCPRO50 doesn't have a way to record progressive frames, it's an interlace-only recording format, so it carries the 24P footage within a 60i stream, the same way as it does on DV.

Well, yes it does... but with DVCPRO50, 10mbps is indeed "unused", when looking at the raw footage -- there are four frames that are unique, and then a fifth "pulldown" frame to round out the sequence and keep it compatible with 60i. Whereas with DVCPRO-HD, they store only the active frames. DVCPRO-HD has a higher compression ratio (about 6.7:1) vs. DVCPRO-50 (about 3.3:1).

Thanks for the reply Barry.
That cleared up things a lot.

Howdy from Texas,

This thread is another split from Kurth Bousman's original Panasonic AJ-HDX100 topic. Here we have some really good exchanges about camcorder tape transports vs. built-in or external hard drives vs. solid state (P2), and how DVCPro 50 and DVCPro HD is recorded... all in all, an excellent subject, in my opinion.