In a P2 thread over at www.pana3ccduser.com there are some stills taken of 128GB P2 cards (from Germany I think). Could this be for real or are they mock ups?? Certainly beats 4GB

http://www.pana3ccduser.com/showthread.php?t=1828&page=1&pp=10

Would that be a P2 RAID of some of those mini-hard drives? If that's true, and not totally unaffordable, I'll have difficulty getting near the Panasonic NAB booth.

Graeme

Kurth............

The PV-GS400 is a consumer camera made, designed and marketed by the consumer development devision at Panasonic.

The AG-HDX200 comes form the professional development and manufacturing that makes professional gear and marketed from their professional devision.

That's like comparing the professional devision that makes and markets the Canon 1Ds SLR to the consumer devision in Canon that makes the A60 2 mega pixel camera.

Or the Sony professional devision that designs, builds and markets the DSR570WSL to the Consumer devision that the makes and markets the TRV1000.


The two don't even swim in the same water or drink the same wine.



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.Com/ARRFILMS



<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : 1080@24p- I'll have to see it to believe it ! I remember when panasonic was releasing the gs400 - they kept alive misleading info about frame mode on the camera - calling frame mode , progressive , when they obviously knew it wasn't progressive . I can't believe they will give us 1080/24p. Now I DO have to wait. Let's hope this isn't ad room hype. -->>>

If it's P2, then it's flash memory, not hard drives.

128GB in Flash memory - that's quite a fantastic feat of engineering. I can still remember how big we though the 16k RAM Pack was for the ZX81.

Graeme

What if Panasonic plans on coming out with a seperate device for recording to tape for DV? It would kind of be like the old days when we had to use two piece equipment. Except now maybe the seperate tape device could piggy back on this new camera. It would kind of be a firestore but a tape drive instead of a hard drive. Of course if this is the case why not just use a hard drive then?

I still like the idea of somebody making a hard drive with a P2 interface built onto it. It would be kind of like those USB key storage devices but much bigger.

About the pixel shift thing. I hate it. I agree with Graeme. It might look good to the naked eye but in the end you are not getting true pixels. In the visual effects industry perfect pixels mean a lot. Maybe we are just pixel freaks but to me I can tell.

The interesting thing about pixel shift is that it only ups the luma resolution. The chroma resolution stays the same. Even though this happens before encoding this means even if you had a camera with true raw analog outputs your chroma is cut in half compared to the luma. Well the chroma isn't cut in half but it stays the same while the luma gets enhanced.

If you start with a 4:4:4 image and use pixel shift you will end up with an image at 4:2:2 no matter how it is encoded.


Finally about the HD tape device on the camera. Even if Panasonic invented a mini version of the HD tape device it would still be huge. I don't even think it would be possible with a mini tape. 16 heads take up a lot of space. The tape unit would have to be larger than the camera itself. If there was a tape device on the camera I think it would have to be a full size tape.

Now it could have just a DV tape unit but really how many of us would use it? If we had the option of shooting high quality video on P2 or ok video on DV wouldn't we end up choosing P2 even if it costs us more in the end? Maybe for the first few months you would use it but after that you wouldn't look at the tape unit ever again.

ONe question - is that 1080P from 1080P chips? or ?

do you guys know that 3ccd 1080p resolution is as good as 35mm film?!?! yap that's right it's 6 megapixels!! just like your PROFESSIONAL DSLR cameras!!!

and BTW the Arri D20 ...but it's 3 chips at 2 megapixels instead of 1 at 6

Wow, sounds sweet. Guess it's hard to now get excited, but we now have to wait for the one piece of information that will put it all in perspectice....Price. Will this really compete with the Sony, seeing as we need P2 cards as well for it. If it does, this is my new camera.

I'm in the position where I don't have a deck and haven't really needed one. With a P2 cam, I won't need one either.

Can't wait to see what the Viewfinder and LCD capabilities are too.

Aaron

Michael- I'm not comparing the camera quality or manufacturing capabilities of consumer vs. pro divisions - I'm talking about the kind of hype a company uses to outlay it's products. Simply put , I can't 100% believe we're getting a dvcpro50 1080/24p camera until I hear from people at NAB outside of the Panasonic team. I don't care what medium we'd have to use, that would threaten varicam sales - unless we're seeing an even bigger than DV/HDV revolution. Sorry , I just can't imagine they would make that big of a leap forward. I remember wanting, too much, a true progressive 16:9 3 chip minidv camera for less than 1500 bucks . then the true facts slowly slipped out of the panasonic spec people - you could see they were almost ashamed to admit it. By the way , was this the tidbit Jan promised or is there more info coming the 4th ? Kurth

hmm look at this...


Panasonic
AG-HVX200 DVCPRO HD P2 Camcorder
Unveiling at NAB 2005, the AG-HVX200 is the professional video industry's most anticipated technology breakthrough. This revolutionary, hand-held P2 camcorder provides 1080i

<-----ok this is weird it says 1080i above..and then...

and 720p recording with the production proven image quality of 100 Mbps DVCPRO HD. The AG-HVX200 records on a P2 card in 1080 in 60i, 30p and 24p; in720 in 60p, 30p and 24p; in 480 in 60i, 30p, and 24p either in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO.

<_---it says 1080p/24 so it does both ? i and p???

Exactly, that's the information that we'll have to wait for. From people who see the thing or read it in several official places, rather than one single posting where it's possibly a typo.

Shit, I'm using an XM2, so damn, 720P is good enough for me.

Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Graeme Nattress : Pixelsshift is real, but I'm hard pressed to see any benefit from it. Any type of sampling, which is what a CCD is doing to the image, relies on mathematical sampling theory, and according to that, you can't represent a signal with more frequency than half the sample rate. I'm at quite a loss to see how PixelShift gets around this requirement or creating aliassing problems.

If anyone has any links to any nice mathematical papers on the subject of pixel shift, I'd be very happy to read them.

Graeme -->>>

See the original feature explanation for the XL-1 camera. Pixel shift is done ONLY on the green ccd because that's what our eyes are most sensitive to with respect to resolution. So, this fools us into seeing a higher resolution image. It works pretty good imho. If I can find the original Canon blurb on pixel shift, I will post it.

Forget mathematical papers. On paper, bumblebees and helicopters shouldn't fly, but they do!

-gb-

But I am a mathematician by training....

AFAIK the Canon used pixel shift vertically, not horizontally like the FX1. Unfortunately, although it's debateable about the mathematics of bug flight, sampling theory is tried, tested and true, wether it be digital audio or video, and you can't just magic it's bounds away. I'm still trying to find a good paper on this subject, and it seems that although pixels shift can add some extra resolution, it cannot add anywhere near the amount of resolution that Sony try to add with their camera, as measurements of that camera's actual resolution show. And that's why I'm keen to learn more about the imaging chips used by this camera.

Graeme

It does:
1080/24p
1080/30p
1080/60i

720/24p
720/30p
720/60p

Kurth I don't think this is a false alarm. Panasonic would be stupid to let that happen. I VERY much doubt they would play a hand that proved untrue. I believe you ARE seeing a revolution greater than HDV. There will always be room for the Varicam. It's a 2/3 inch camera! That makes a lot of difference. The larger format - thus better sensitivity and signal to noise ratio combined with the more expensive processing and high end lenses really makes the Varicam stand out. I am sooo very glad that Panasonic listened to the customer base rather than go with HDV like everyone else. One of the smartest movies a company could ever make.

In any case we will know for certain soon enough. Personally I take the official announcement to be proof enough but for skeptics NAB is just around the corner :).

Buckle up. It's gonna be one hell of a ride!

Anyone want to buy an FX1? :D

Seriously, I can't wait to see the specs on this camera.

As for noise, I wonder what the possibilities are for shooting 60p and using some kind of adaptive noise averaging down to 24p? This camera, with it's much more flexible shooting options, should give endless possibilities for doing fun things to help get around tricky situations.

Graeme

Graeme, why not just shoot 24p then? Do you mean for a slow mo or something?

Aaron

I'm thinking if there's low light, you could shoot more frames per second than you need, and use some post processing to adaptively lower the noise level. I found when doing so Varicam 60p to 24p conversions, that the noise level seemed a bit lower....

I'm just thinking out loud on the possibilities for this camera....

Graeme

I think he means literally taking 60 frames and averaging them together to get 24p. The benefit being a higher signal to noise ratio. I'm not sure if it would work with averaging images that aren't the same though. I know it works in still photography but in that case the scene doesn't change (usually).

EDIT: Gah, hate it when that happens :P

Better get to work on those filters, Grahame! I'm going to need them on my new 23 inch HD iMAC! *L*

One good thing about using pixelshift is that you can user larger photodiodes, lowering overall noise and greatly enhances smear suppresion, considereing the small sensor size (1/3"-1/2")

Here is a blurp from a Panasonic brochure:
http://panasonic.andersholck.com/spatialoffset.gif

The Panasonic AJ-HDX400 has a 1280x720 60p CCD block and supports 1080i, using some clever upressing...

WOW!!!!!!!!!!

Unreal!!!!! I can't WAIT to see this puppy!! When is it scheduled to ship?? Any insider news?

- ShannonRawls.com

P2 cards....

P2 cards.....

P2 cards.....

PLEASE BE AFFORDABLE.....

PLEASE MAKE 2-HOURS WORTH OF RECORDING AFFORDABLE.....

ALL A BRUTHA NEEDS IS 2-HOURS.....

I WILL BE HAPPY TO GIVE YOU $6,999.99 FOR THE CAMERA AND 2-HOURS!!!!!

P2 cards.....

P2 cards......

P2 cards.....

*smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

Great stuff isn't it?! :D

You could (theoretically) use this camera for years - much longer than an average electronics life span.

I think there will be options for hard disk recording (I believe Panasonic has something on their website a while back) so that should hold most people over until P2 enters their budget range I would think. Hope I'm not wrong!

"The Panasonic AJ-HDX400 has a 1280x720 60p CCD block and supports 1080i, using some clever upressing..."

Is this confirmed?
Is there a link to this info?

"You could (theoretically) use this camera for years..."

Ha! Who are you kidding? We'll all be drooling over the new SuperExtremeHighDefinition camera that will come out NAB 2007. (2009 for Canon.)

Kevin

<<<-- Originally posted by Luis Caffesse : [i]Is this confirmed?
Is there a link to this info? -->>>

The Aj-HDX400 is a full size camcorder.

The new small one is the HVX200.

Isn't it HVX200?

Quite true Kevin :D. I'm talking pragmatically though. With SD there was a limit to how far you could go. With this however, improvements will surely be made but this should last about as long as the XL1 I would think a good 6 years maybe?

Honestly though, where do we go next? I can't even begin to imagine what Panasonic will be releasing a few years from now. Do we go scope? Greater latitude? Larger chips? More pixels? HD3D?

Nah. The equipment becomes so good and owned by everyone, that we all start getting less excited about it and more focused more on good writing and good ideas.

A man can dream...

Kevin

(PS-On a serious note, this is all very much following what happened in the audio world over the past 15 years. In mid-80's I was so thrilled to be recording on 4-track recorders...than 8-track recorders. Now? It's not about the equipment at all. Anyone can record a technically decent signal into a computer. BUT, is music any better than 15 years ago? I sure don't think so...)

> If you start with a 4:4:4 image and use pixel shift
> you will end up with an image at 4:2:2 no matter
> how it is encoded.

Yep. So... who cares if pixel shift is used when it's going to be encoded at 4:2:2 anyway? I don't. Especially if, by using pixel shift, better sensitivity and s/n is obtained, not to mention an easier to make (read: less expensive) sensor array.

Now the only thing I want is to have an option to pop a hard drive into the P2 slot instead of solid state memory. Should be much less expensive.

"The Panasonic AJ-HDX400 has a 1280x720 60p CCD block and supports 1080i, using some clever upressing..."

Well that would get us to 1920 x 1080 with pixel shift. You get 1.5X the luma pixels with pixel shift. This would give us a 1080i/p image with 1920 x 1080 luma pixels and only 1280 x 720 chroma pixels or a 3:2:2 natural image. The codec would then bring that down to 1920 x 1080 for luma and 960 x 540 for chroma or 4:2:2I guess that isn't that bad. It sure beats 4:1:1.

Even if the new Panasonic camera uses pixel shift for 1080i/p that sure beats the SONY Z1 trying to jump up to 1920 from only 960.

Even for those who love pixel shift you have to admit starting with 1280 instead of 960 pixels is much better when trying to get to 1920.

"The Aj-HDX400 is a full size camcorder.

The new small one is the HVX200."



That's what I get for not reading carefully.

Boy is my face red!
:)



"It's not about the equipment at all. Anyone can record a technically decent signal into a computer. BUT, is music any better than 15 years ago? I sure don't think so..."

That is true, as a blanket statement.
Music overall may not be better than it was 15 years ago, but I guarantee you there are people recording incredible music today that would not have had the means to do so 15 years ago.

So, you are right, these technological leaps don't automatically equal better content, not at all. But I'll bet that out of the thousands of cameras that are sold this year, at least one person will make something interesting, genuine, and possibly brilliant. And that same person may not have done so if they couldn't afford it before.

I'm a bit worried about no mention of 3ccd's... And more, I'm really worried about the lens- One of the things I liked most in my DVX was the fantastic LEICA DICOMAR lens it had- the colors, the sharpness, the amazing detail and, again, the Colors where what sold me- a million time better than the plain sony lens of my PD-170...

So no 25 or 50 frame rates then!

Steve, there will be a PAL version for Europe, Australia and New Zeeland with 1080/50i, 108025p, 720/50p, 720/25p, 576/50i and 576/25p. No 24/30/60.

I know NAB is only two weeks away, but can anyone point me to anything besides speculation to support that this camera will NOT have a tape drive? Every bit of news I read (jan, etc) seems to say that it will. Isn't DVCPRO-HD a TAPE format?

It surely will have P2. But still we do not know, how many P2 cards it will take of. And regarding the question of a tape drive or a (built-in) hard disk drive - no comments from Panasonic until now. But also they have not disclaimed anything. So we have to wait... DVCPRO-HD is not a tape format, but a format of recording. There is no determined specification regarding the recording medium.

John,

This isn't exactly speculation.

EVEN IF there were a tape transport on this camera, you won't be shooting DVCProHD onto tape. The tape transport would probably only work with DVCPro.

MiniDV tapes don't have the strength needed for the higher tape speeds of DVCPro50 and DVCProHD (Jan talked about this on here about HD specifically).

Also, Jan has mentioned that the DVCProHD tape transports require 16 recording heads, which are not only expensive but also take up a lot of space. So, if this camera had an HD tape transport, it wouldn't be anywhere near as small as it is, and neither would the price.


edited to add:

Okay, in case those points weren't enough to disuade people from thinking this cam might have tape, here is what Jan had to say in another thread.

" ... this little camera will not record to tape, rather to memory, P2 cards. No moving parts except those in the lens."