Howdy from Texas,

The point that you're trying to make is that it's difficult to properly convey emotions through text, and I agree. But we try to make a difference with this message board.

You're speaking in relative terms. $10k is a lot of money for *you* (and for me) but for many people it's a real bargain. The DVCPro HD format has never before been made available so inexpensively.

Again, relative terms... it's actually very small and very lightweight for a DVCPro HD camera. Try skateboarding with a VariCam and you'll see how good you've got it with the HVX200.

Jan just answered that it records HD to the P2 cards only, and it's important to understand why. A DVCPro HD tape transport would have cost about $20k just for the mechanism. The idea was to keep the total price down below $10k, so that pretty much ruled out any kind of tape transport except DV25 (that is, standard definition DV or DVCPro). Hope this helps,

When I said everyone will be hitting the gym, I was talking about skateboard filmers (sorry about that). I'm developing back problems after filming lines with my full set up at night. You would never film a full lenth skateboard movie with a Varicam. After a vx1 vx2 dvx100 people jump over to 16mm. Which is also pointless because of the price. The only people who film 16mm are guys who get that stuff for free from the companies they shoot for. I would LOVE to shoot 16mm, but again, you wouldn't make a full lenth video out of 16mm just sections like Transworld videos do.

-
 

Great discussion guys.

Lawrence is absolutely right: people are focusing on tools a little too much on the web. But still: it's a great source of technical information :-)

Nice to see that some people are more focusing on "artistical side" versus "technical"

Think Superbit.....
 

If you've ever rented or purchased a Superbit DVD, and wanted to know why they call it that..
Superbit is creating a DVD from uncompressed HD source(1080 24p). and creating a DVD that plays back video and audio at the maximum allowable bitrate (Most DVDs don't). No behind the scenes, no previews, no extras. Just great looking/ great sounding DVD. More detail, in every way.

It's been a pretty good marketing tool for Sony to the high end Home Theater crowd. With HDV or this new panasonic, there is no reason you all couldn't do something similar. Then when an affordable HD standard makes it's debut, you will be ready.

Back to the original topic: I hope they will also sell this camera without the P2 cards. I could afford a new laptop to record the video for the cost of one of those cards.

yeah that's insane. Don't they only hold about 10minutes of HD video??? They should have atleast 40gigs

For Kenn Christenson, yes, they will sell the HVX200 without P2 cards for $5995.

For Geg Harris, it's not insane when you consider that this is DVCPro HD recording for under $10k. It's not insane, it's quite reasonable for the money. As long as you have a way to download cards on location, then there really is no maximum recording limit, only a maximum single shot length. Even the AJ-PCS060 is small enough to be worn on your belt, is battery powered and holds 60gigs. With two cards you have practically limitless recording for hours and hours. Hope this helps,

"For Kenn Christenson, yes, they will sell the HVX200 without P2 cards for $5995."

Well, I hope it's not just for little ol' me. :)

I'm sure there are lots of budget minded people out there willing to use the old laptop until the P2 prices drop.

Hey guys off topic, but we were talking about skateboarding and the DVX, here is my newest promo for my video.
thanks
http://homepage.mac.com/jredwards4/iMovieTheater8.html

Great Job Greg...............
doug

Yeah, an 8GB card would give about 10 minutes of DVCProHD-100, the camera holds 2 cards, so you get 20 minutes of record time without swapping cards until higher capacities become available.

I don't know if I would call it insane, but it does pose some serious issues for those recording long format stuff or it just adds one more step into your workflow having to offload cards as you work.

Also keep in mind that 720p - especially the 30 and 24 fps modes allow for more record time as they don't eat up the full 100Mbps data rate and if you shoot SD DVCPro50, figure 20 minutes record time per 8GB card.

solid state recording for video is relatively new, especially in this price range. Eventually, it will provide more space than we ever had with tape, it will just take another couple years to get there. Eventually we'll have 128GB and larger cards... Probably by 2010, 1TB solid state storage devices will be on the horizon or even readily available. I know it's pointless to speculate that far out. Then again, it's somewhat pointless to go nuts over the HVX200 until it's actually here... Or we should at least wait for some sample footage and solid specs for the CCD and other things.

Jeff,
You're right, it's a new technology. With new technology comes a host of problems and responsibilities, along with new advantages.

We're in one of those shake-up phases right now it seems, where everything is on the cusp of changing shape. Unfortunately, many people are stuck in the middle, and their heads are spinning....I know mine is.

For example, this P2 represents possibly some of the most magnificent possibilities for video; nearly limitless capabilites of frame-rates, resolution, etc. on one source. At the same time, there isn't a rat's chance in a busy vietnamese kitchen that I or most people could possibly afford even one p2 card to go to battle with. I imagine if someone were to be silly enough to shoot an entire film with just P2 cards, it would cost far more than the same footage in the highest quality chrome film.
In time though, prices will go down, and the techology represents a giant leap forward in my opinion. People will work out the kinks, capacities will skyrocket, and back-up options will expand as well.

Imagine how eventually you could have a camera that never drops a single frame or pixel, even if you shoot on a roller coaster, or on a formula 1 racer. You could shoot in freezing temperatures, and in a sand-storm.

It almost seems to me that this kind of an advancement is a kind of analog to modern photographers using leica cameras with no battery consumption...the camera will work and work and work under any condition. Not to mention you can film one minute, and edit the next.


The real question in my mind is what will the other companies do to respond to Panasonic? I'm sure they will not sit idly by while Panasonic rules the world in 10 years. It'd be like insisting on using phonographs when cd's are available.

I think this will be the largest hurdle for P2 technology at the start. I really want to move my video production into HD as it would be extremely beneficial to me. I can definitely afford the HVX200 and would probably consider a second if I can generate enough revenue with the first (besides I will probably unload my DVX100 if I can buy a second HVX). But the cost of P2 cards has me a little miffed (as I have already ranted about in another thread). I will probably suck it up and find a way to buy 2 8GB cards along with the camera just because it's what I would need to shoot the HD content and I hate owning something that I can't use so no point in buying the HVX if I'm just going to shoot DV25 with it. I'd like to buy a host of other accessories for the camera as well like a nice mattebox and a new tripod maybe a focus ring adapter once it becomes available (assuming the lens on the HVX has the same focus limitations of the DVX100). But a lot of that stuff may have to wait initially so I can swallow the P2 cards. I think a lot of people on these forums are in the same situation. $5K or somewhere in that range is stretching the budget... $10K after throwing in P2 cards is too much. I'm hoping that as we get closer to release some prices will adjust and hopefully there will be other memory card makers jumping onto the P2 bandwagon to help bring the prices down.


I don't know... I suppose that would depend on a lot of other factors too. From my point of view, I would think P2 to be cheaper. I have all the hardware here to integrate P2 in my workflow. The only thing I'm lacking is a NLE that supports the DVCPro formats as I use Vegas. I'm going to assume that Vegas will support the DVCPro formats in the near future and in time for the HVX200 release since they would (IMO) be foolish to ignore this camera and they would also be foolish to ignore a format that FCP supports. But worse case scenario is I would switch to Avid Xpress HD or use a 3rd party add-on for Vegas to give me the DVCPro capabilities. With P2 there's no additional processing expense or time for the film stock and I essentially have unlimited shooting capacity as I have tons of drive space here to accommodate this and I have the DLT backup system to archive it as well.

But the cost of shooting a film is also subjective to endless parameters. I can visualize a few scenarios where it would be cheaper to rent a Varicam or even a CineAlta for a 2 to 3 day shoot and acquire all the footage into a usable format for less than it would cost to buy the HVX200 and necessary accessories to accomplish the same thing at a lower level of quality.

I'm planning to buy the HVX200 when it arrives, but I may just borrow or rent one for a few days before actually making the purchase. I still may do better with something like an FX1 or Z1 which will have a lower operating cost for HD and then when I need superior image quality, I will still go rent something else. OTOH, actually owning an HVX200 should give a huge improvement in quality over HDV cameras and if I own it I can put it in an under-water housing or other high risk activities and I don't have the people at the rental place or my insurance agent saying, "you want to do what??!!!"

Hard to say... I know JVC is going to HDD recording with their new HDV camera. Sony is going to start pushing 4GB and larger capacity memory-sticks and memory stick based camcorders in the consumer market along with units that record to 3" BluRay discs, but they're phasing out tape as well. I think tape is definitely going to die as the dominant media in the next few years as far as buying a new camera is concerned. However, it will probably be a while until one or two new formats really establish themselves in the market and I bet we see a lot new technologies arrive in the market only to fail before it's all over. That's why I'm somewhat surprised that Panasonic is acting so casual about P2 prices. I know they have to uphold their pro market image and approach to these products, but I think they would do better to push P2 more into the mainstream. Just think how cool it would be if P2 were as commonplace as regular SD or CF memory cards and every Panny camcorder from the $400 palmcorder on up to the next generation of the Varicam all ran off of P2 media. But now after typing that I realize it will never happen. They're not going to want to blur the market so much and they will want to keep their pro products solely in the pro market, at least for a while.

The P2 cards are a one time reusable storage medium. You don't fill them up and have to buy another. I don't understand that statement at all. This camera, as Jan has stated in other posts, is designed for filmmakers. In fact, in controlled shooting situations 20 minutes of 1080pHD is simply incredible for 10K.

Good point, Ian. Not only that, but all you'll ever need for limitless recording times are only *two* P2 cards, as long as you have off-camera storage nearby. Shoot one card while downloading the other. Lather, rinse, repeat.

That's what I'm talking about, brother! And native 16:9 to Mini-DV to ease the transition as I convert to an HD workflow from my DVX? Can't ask for more than that.

Pre-order for $5,995, presumably no P2 cards
 

Would you rather have had Panasonic add a HD tape deck to this thing and charge $25,000.00 for the camera and then have to buy $60.00 - $80.00 tapes?

You do realize that after you shot 100 HD tapes you will have spent $6,000 - $8,000 just on tapes alone? If you want to keep shooting you will have to keep buying tapes. Of course you could reuse tapes again but what kind of a pro really does that.

So now we can have a DVCPRO HD camera for $10,000.00 and 20 minutes or more worth of P2 cards that can be used as much as you want. This is compared to the 25g's plus 8g's if the camera used tapes.

Just think of P2 as buying a box of 50 to 75 tapes to go with your camera. Many of us already are used to buying tapes in bulk. If you do not think you would use that many tapes, I for example used over 200 tapes just last year alone.

<<<<Good point, Ian. Not only that, but all you'll ever need for limitless recording times are only *two* P2 cards, as long as you have off-camera storage nearby. Shoot one card while downloading the other. Lather, rinse, repeat.>>>>
Chris - I'd think it would be better to have three cards, since the camera has two slots - you could juggle the third , always keeping the longest capacity available in the camera - except , of course , for the changeover. Hopefully soon ( 2 years ) the camera could be had for 6-7 grand with 3 cards and the reader+HD and cards up to 20 gigs apiece - an exponential increase as happened with firewire drives. In my first G3/fcp , I had 4 state of the art 25 gig drives - wow , did that change fast. The same will happen with p2, if it becomes the standard- the big " if ". Kurth

it's already here, i shot this footage last year using the 6 mbps mpeg2 sd card recorder function on the panasonic av100, a tapeless consumer camera that has since been discontinued: http://www.oceanstreetvideo.com/import/import.html

that is a 2 mb flash file, it'll take a minute to load up.

look at the way the roll cage is shaking around in the car, the camera never missed a beat... what you can't imagine is how free it feels to not have to hassle with tape! plug the sd card into the laptop, and off you go.

changing subjects; there are picture quality advantages to shooting hd footage, and downconverting it to sd resolution: http://www.tvtechnology.com/hd_notebook/one.php?id=228

I agree, Kurth -- I guess my point is that two P2 cards are all you need as a bare minimum. Three would be even better! But it's only a question of cycling cards. There is no "limit" on recording time at all. You could shoot all day long using only two cards if you had to.

I'm not the first to point out that the paradigm of working with these cards will be in some ways similar to a film setup, wherein the loader takes the exposed mag, downloads it, reloads it, and delivers it back to the set. What may be worth pointing out is how many mags are in a standard order; for a given shooting mode (i.e. 400ft handheld or Steadicam, 1000 ft conventional) 3 mags is considered absolute minimum, in case there is a jam or malfunction in one. Two mags will guarantee down time on set while waiting for the other one to be returned.

I would personally only feel comfortable with 3 P2 cards, and would only consider going on a distant location with 4.

They just changed the delivery date on B&H to December.
*DOH*

I think I'd feel pretty comfortable with two cards. Solid state, no moving parts, it'd be pretty tough for something to go wrong with them. I mean, of course, would I rather have 3 or 4? No doubt. The best of all worlds would be that by the time it comes out there's a firestore type device ready to go that's fully compatible. 60gigs that you could strap on your belt. That would be ideal, at least for my shooting situations. With any recording medium you're taking a risk, right? Drop-outs can blow a good take on tape (rare albeit), film can screwed up through bad handling. Of course maybe by the 4Q competitors will have P2 cards for much cheaper and I'll grab 4 without a doubt. As is, for me I think I'm going to buy the camera without the cards unless something big happens with P2 pricing by then. Switching over to being able to edit HD is gonna take some time for me (money wise I mean). That's why I think Panna leaving the DV capability in the cam was a great idea for those of us struggling to make small films and still adapt to the newest technology (while still working a day job).

I've heard talk about bypassing the P2 cards and recording directly to HDD, or strapping a HDD to your belt as Ian just stated but my concern has nothing to do with data rates, storage capacity, image quality, etc. My concern is with the firewire cables themselves.. they sure seem to pull out easily, they're not locking like a BNC cable or triax cable. Does anyone have a clever way to ensure that the cable stays put in the camera?

That's a valid concern. I haven't thought about that.

Knot the FW cable around the handgrip (snugly, but don't bind it), so that any hard tug merely pulls on the handgrip... then gaff-tape the connection on the cam. Not elegant, not pretty, but it's a fairly industrial solution.

Same thing at the other end -- find something near the HDD, like a strap on its case or something, put a few loops of FW cable through there first and then tape down that connection.

I'm no fan of gummy tape residue, but in the absence of locking FW connectors (which is a huge advantage of SDI, by the way), it's one viable approach. What would really help are FW cables with ninety-degree connectors.

<<<I'm no fan of gummy tape residue>>>
Chris - Shrink tubing - the cable could easily absorb the short heating cycle , and then rig up some kind of safety hook or eye beneath that could be easily disconnected using industrial hardware even tie straps- I hate tape for long term solutions- no pun intended !
<<<I'm not the first to point out that the paradigm of working with these cards will be in some ways similar to a film setup, wherein the loader takes the exposed mag, downloads it, reloads it, and delivers it back to the set.>>>
Charles -I said that in a previous place and then furthered the metaphor by comparing size reductions between 400' mags and p2 cards vs. their respective recording capacities , and then to think p2 is reusable - almost defies the laws of physics. The p2 card solution is perfect , it just needs to be cheaper. HD's fail .
My only problem is how to find the 100 bills necessary for it's delivery, but I think it will be worth every penny at b&h or wherever- Kurth

As far as the cost of P2 cards being insane or prohibitive, it was just a while ago in relative terms that we put together our first non-linear room in our creative shop.

So many producers and shooters said that independent computer based studios weren't yet practical. We heard the same thing as we migrated to desk top design and digital audio production.

My point is that our first sytstem, a 33 mhz Mac Quadra 840 AV cost about $5k, you couldn't put 2 gigs of ram in it, but if you could it would have cost as much.

Our first striped raid array...4 gigs cost $4500.

It's simply the innate cost of moving forward into the new world of increased creative possibility.

Of course we'll all be saying in a couple of years. "can you believe we spent $1600 on a P2 card with the original HVX!?"

We just moved into out new studios and we're still cleaning out rooms full of equipment from our old building that don't fit into the new digs.

I just gave away a huge analog mixing console, prisitine 2 track recorders, racks of gear...an entire media 100 SCSI system is literally being used to hold a door open for movers <g>.

Just that gear together was worth $60-75k. I'm literally paying to throw away a dozen CRT monitors.

I don't begrudge any of it...it's literally the price of progress. We live in the most creatively evolutionary time in human history. Don't complain about it...embrace it.

Well put, Jim... besides... this stuff pays for itself anyway. Many times over!

<<Well put, Jim... besides... this stuff pays for itself anyway. Many times over!>>>

Thanks Chris, I just did a little interview this week with Markee Mag about our new facilities and the trends in film/video production. It still surprises me that people are so interested in "smaller shops" doing "big" work. I mean, I really thought that hurdle was cleared a decade or more ago.

Anyway, there was a genuine satisfaction over a statement like "more and more clients are hip to the idea of using a small shop that can write and shoot and produce with ther own audio and video post rooms" My guess is that's exactly what most of our many friends here are doing or building to do. It isn't the future, it's the now.

And if I actually get them a couple of shots emailed by tommorrow's deadline there will be a pic of the new mountain top studios in the June edition.

Viva the revolution!