Re: Hpx 600
 

By next year it's highly likely that Sony may have upgraded the PMW320 in a similar way to all the other 35Mbs cameras in the range.

Price wise, that's likely to be far less than a PMW400 (or HPX600) yet may still tick enough boxes if 2/3" isn't a necessity?

In fact, price wise probably very comparable with a HPX371 - but 1/2" sensors versus 1/3". Which will give it a stop advantage in terms of sensitivity, dof and diffraction limiting.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Folks, from what I just learned, an HPX600 with the AVC-Ultra upgrade will be capable of 1080/60P!
That's quite an upgrade.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Recently I had an opportunity to test the Panasonic HPX600. I shoot for a team competing in the Pirelli World Challenge Sports Car series in North America. The rules for video at the track are more or less no tripods so its very run and gun like. I had to use clips that I wont use in the clients video for this particular race but wanted to post some basic clips to show some aspects of what this camera looks like. Especially since there is next to no real footage on the internet.

I did no CC. I only adjusted exposure on a few clips with no color boost etc. The camera is in Cine-V mode, 24p and AVC INTRA 50. I shot INTRA 50 because I only had a 16gig P2 card and had to make it last.

For me I wanted to see how the skewing would be for panning and following cars. I couldnt use those shots in this as those will be used for the clients video. Previously my ENG camera was the JVC 700/750 which is CCD so panning wasnt an issue at all. I also have been using my AF100 for the last year covering racing and the client LOVES that look. So it was interesting to shoot with an ENG camera again, to say the least.

This weekend I plan to actually go out and do some night shots and garden shots, contrast etc etc.

Hope you enjoy.

Myles

Re: Hpx 600
 

Myles,
Thanks for the video! Your footage looks great. especially some of the "test subjects." ;-)
For run-n-gun, a shoulder mount can't be beat.

I'm looking forward to seeing more video from you.

So, how do you like the camera? I got to play with one at a demo, and I really liked it. But that was only for an hour, stuck in a room. I'd like to hear you thoughts on using one in the field, for a paying client. How does it compare to the JVC? Is it about the same weight?
How did you get the 600? Is it a rental?

Re: Hpx 600
 

Thanks Glen. I actually really like it. Like most I read about the unit being a single C-MOS etc and of course I had my doubts about C-MOS and Skewing and remembered the HPX300 skewing issues. So I shot a few clips and immediately uploaded them to see and was surprised. For me its hard to take a camera on a gig and doubt its abilities so with some reassurance of decent performance I took it with me. I also shoot with the AF100 and are realizing now in post that the 2 cams work well together.

Its typical Pani build and quality. The feel of the camera is robust. The 17x lens was nice to use after shooting with 25mm and pulling focus 24/7. Its also nice to run and gun in a single weekend and shoot those 2 styles back to back. I shot indoor in various lighting situations and the camera tackles those very easily. I Was most surprised with the pop of the color. The AF100 tends to be flat and then I color grade. This camera had a nice amount of color "pop", if you will and that was nice when shooting the colorful cars.

The only thing that I missed was an actual LCD. Getting low shots was a little difficult without it.

I'm interested to see how this does back to back against the HPX 3100 since its CCD and slightly older.

Once I'm done my current edit I will share the video.

Myles Williams

Re: Hpx 600
 

Firstly Miles, nice camerawork, but with having been shot in AVC-Intra 50 and allowing for vimeo compression, I suspect they may tell us more about your craft abilities than technicalities?

Looking back at this thread, I've been one of the critical voices, but that is in relative terms. It's not a case of if the HPX600 is "good" or "bad", more one of whether anything comparable is available which is either the same quality but cheaper, or better and the same price? I wouldn't expect anything costing over $15,000 to yield results which could be even remotely described as "bad" - not in the hands of a good cameraman, anyway!

And look back, and the PMW400 was seen as the obvious comparison. On June 11th, Glen Vandermolen posted:
Well, now we do know. A month ago, I'd been working on the basis of statements that the PMW400 would be close to PMW350 pricing, and hence speculating would be similar in price to the HPX600. I was wrong. By over $2,000. But......

B&H are now listing pricing and delivery dates for the PMW400 - end of August, and $17,350..... yes $17,350 for camera/v/f/lens package. That compares with their list of $19,500 for the HPX600, also as a camera/v/f/lens package. See http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/966238-REG/sony_pmw_400k_3cmos_2_3_hd422_camcorder.html and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906083-REG/panasonic_ag_hpx600pjf_ag_hpx600_camcorder_with_ag_cvf15.html

So the HPX600 is well over $2,000 dearer than a like for like PMW400 package - and it's single chip versus three chip! It's not a case of an alternative being better or cheaper - it's a case of better AND cheaper!!

Re: Hpx 600
 

David, i knew you'd show up.
Please quit trolling the Panasonic threads. Go buy a Sony 400. Make yourself happy.
This is a thread about the Panasonic HPX600. For those who wish to share information about the HPX600. Do you understand that concept?

WHY DO YOU ALWAYS INSIST UPON INVADING THESE THREADS AND TRYING TO SELL SONY CAMERAS??????

We know, you think Panasonic sucks. We got that. I swear, do you have some kind of bizarre fixation against Panasonics? God, you're so predictable!

Did we ask for a comparison? Did you see anyone ask you for a comparison?
If we want info about the PMW400 we can go to the Sony sections.

WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT PANASONICS!! THERE ARE MANY POSTS YOU'VE MADE ON THAT SAME SUBJECT, OVER AND OVER!! WE CAN JUST LOOK THEM UP!
WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT????

Please take your Sony info to the Sony sections - please!!!!
Let us discuss the HPX600 in peace!

Re: Hpx 600
 

Thanks David for the kind words! I dont own the HPX600 and I am aware of the PMW400 coming. As a Sony F3 owner I am curious how well the "400" will match to the F3. I know, I know,..ti should be able to be matched without too much work, but man the Abel Cine scene files in the AF100 match very well with the "600" and that without much effort. As an occasional Steadicam op the auto focus on the PMW 400( hiding behind a sofa now) does appeal to me some what in a semi run & gun scenario when shooting WIDE in the pit lane and not being able to really focus etc. A common shot is a tight, low shot of the wheel of a car to pit out and then hold it as goes down the pit lane. very hard when pulling focus on a large sensor and not easy with a 15lb camera on a Scout while watching for other cars coming in at the same time. So there are a "few" times when autofocus saves the day.

Other than that the 3 chip of the Sony in theory should be solid as we all know from the PMW350.

I will say I like the look and feel of the Fujinon lens on this HPX600.

I did shoot a few things in AVC INTRA-100 and I can honestly say I see the difference in detail in the blacks and shadows etc. I took some footage into the broadcast trailer and viewed a few simple clips and WOW......its impressive.

So no....I have no plans to get big brothers to both AF100 and F3's. I have to choose one of the other. The AF100 and F3 are easy to match for a cooking show I produce so they have to stay. I am now feeling like I "need" a 2/3" ENG camera in the stable. Its either that or get a 18-85 prime zoom and I cant stomach that. ...not at this stage.........
..Yet !

Mw.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Fixed that for you !

Re: Hpx 600
 

I'm sorry, Myles.
Please, continue with your thoughts and experiences with the HPX600. You're one of the few on this forum who've actually has real time with one.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Oh no worries. For me coming from a JVC 700/750 which is a 1/3inch CCD chip to this 2/3inch just made me realize how much I wish I had sprung for say a USED HPX500 back in 2010 when I bought the JVC.

I like this camera very much. Its low light performance is also impressive but I have nothing to show for that claim/opinion.

I head out next week so I should be able to get more shots and post.

Hope that helps people get a better feel for the camera. This is my first time giving feedback to other shooters on a new camera. Normally I am reading on here about a camera that I want to buy getting OTHERS feedback !

Myles

Re: Hpx 600
 

I used to own an HPX500. It was a pretty good camera, but the uprezzed CCD chips didn't give the sharpest picture. In fact, I sold the camera when I was able to view the images on my (then) new 57" LCD TV. I was disappointed. I sold it and bought a Canon XF305, which had a very sharp picture.
But I did make money off the 500, and that's what really mattered. It was a bit heavy to shoulder mount!

I kept all of my P2 cards, Canon B4 lens and my batteries, so you can see my interest in the HPX600. All I need is a camera body and EVF and I'm GTG.

Please post more updates and videos, and good luck with your shoot!
BTW, your racing videos on Vimeo look awesome!

And are you renting the camera, or testing it for someone?

Re: Hpx 600
 

Glen, I really think you should reflect before you post, and you may like to consider whether you should edit your previous post - you're not doing yourself any favours. As for "we know you think Panasonic sucks", then well, it's not true, and I thought I'd made that clear in my last post, let alone the previous ones. I'll try again. I said "I wouldn't expect anything costing over $15,000 to yield results which could be even remotely described as "bad" - ........ That is far, far from describing the HPX600 (let alone Panasonic in general) as "it sucks".

One thing which really irritates me on forums is that debates so often descend into black and white terms, and that is normally nonsense. If cameras got marked out of ten, I may give the HPX600 7½, may give the PMW400 8 or 8½, and I've tried to give solid reasons for why I think how I do. Yes, I think the PMW400 has the edge - but that is nowhere near like saying "this camera sucks" or thinking it grounds for describing me as "having some kind of bizarre fixation against Panasonics", and it's ridiculous to say so.

I'm referring to slightly different shades of grey, not black and white references, and please don't try to present anything I say as such.
Glen, whatever you think, when you're considering the technical merits of any camera, then comparisons are inevitable and (at least IMO) valuable. It's not just me, and as reference Sanjin Svajger was drawing comparisons in post 73, Gary Nattrass also thought comparisons were relevant (post 79).

Same with many other products, cars or whatever. Individual product reviews can only tell you so much, direct comparisons I find so much more useful from a potential purchasing point of view. So "performs well in low light" tells you what? Nothing really, and depends heavily on what any reviewer has been used to beforehand. "Performed a stop better than the xyz" is far more descriptive and useful.

And really, it's quite amusing that you yourself start your last post with talk of an HPX500 and then an XF305!! One moment you talk of only wanting to talk directly about the HPX600, period - the next moment you're talking comparisons yourself!

Re: Hpx 600
 

Please quit quoting me.
Go away. Please.
We're talking about the Panasonic HPX600 here. You're interrupting Myles. Let him finish.

Re: Hpx 600
 

you guys crack me up. It reminds me of the automotive forums !

Myles

Re: Hpx 600
 

Sorry again, Myles.

Did you get any shooting in this weekend with the 600?

Re: Hpx 600
 

I am editing most of this weekend. I will wait until the wifey dozes off and maybe try to skip out with the camera. I'm 6'3 but normally when I do some night shoots I take my friend who was a Seal with me as a precaution. No Seal tonight means risking things with a camera thats not mine !

We'll see though.

M.

Re: Hpx 600
 

LOL!
I don't know what's more dangerous - venturing into an area without your SEAL protection, or an angry wife!
Take it easy out there!

Re: Hpx 600
 

The places in Baltimore to get good night shots are deserted. Not like detroit, but no one really around. So when you do see someone its not a good thing I have learned.

If the weather is decent tomorrow I will try to get out and get some shots.

M.

Re: Hpx 600
 

NIGHT SHOTS

Re: Hpx 600
 

Very nice, Myles!
The 6db gain looks very usable. 12db would work as well.

The images are sharp, the colors look nice.
I like it!

Re: Hpx 600
 

I found that anything beyond 3 dB gain for all night shots w/ the HPX-3700, 3100 is just too grainy for my taste & tolerance. At 0 dB, it's quite sensitive and useable. Vimeo pretty much conceals a lot of grain noise.

I'll give the HPX-600 benefit of the doubt here and when I actually have my hands on it to evaluate, I can't say for sure that it's much better or worse than than HPX3### series yet.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Fair enough. I can go in and do some frame grabs if that helps.....

Re: Hpx 600
 

A few frame grabs.....

Re: Hpx 600
 

Thanks for the grab. Indeed there's noise if you look closely, especially at 6 dB and 12 dB grab. The noise will move if the clip is moving. For EFP, it's just unacceptable for me. However, for ENG, it's OK since content matters more than quality of the footage.

Judging from this, I suspect that it's roughly the same as the HPX3#### series cam which claims f/13 @ 2000 lux. I shot quite a few night time shots w/ the HPX3100 series and have been using 0 dB w/ pretty decent results. I'll grab some frames for evaluation. At 3 dB noise starts to get quite noticeable for dark scenes. If the night scene has a lot of ambient light, then I can go up to 3 dB max. This guideline holds true for the clip of the couple walking in the shopping area that you provided. But when the scene gets dark overall (no light on the grass and ground), ugly noise really starts to pop out. From 6-12 dB, way too much once the clip is playing its normal speed. It's like a swarm of noise insect invading the scene, especially the non-lit region.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Agreed and for me I shoot a lot of racing which 90% of the time is in day light except for an occasional 24 race in which my AF or F3 just dominate in those arenas.

Mw

Re: Hpx 600
 

Myles, the night stuff looks really nice. I do have one question though, since I shoot overnight news. It would seem from the Panasonic specs, that the HPX600's MAXIMUM gain setting is 18db, and that to enable this, you must program a user button, as it is not assignable to the H/M/L switch like a normal camera. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, it would be sad that an ancient f10@2000 rig could best this brand new f12@2000 one at night.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Yes you are correct. When programmed you have use of 18db.

Myles

Re: Hpx 600
 

Sigh and no doubt all the complaints of noise will all start again like they did with the hpx301/371.from people who think these cameras can see in the dark!

I set my 301/371 at -3, +3 and +6 and no more as noise can then be a problem.

Re: Hpx 600
 

yup. And by saying that I'm not saying I ever use 18db, just answering the past question.

Myles

Re: Hpx 600
 

I know that Myles and sorry if I offended you but sadly there are those out there that think you can just dial in +18db and shoot at night then wonder why there is too much noise, it can damage a good cameras initial launch as does the old skew and flash banding complaints.

Re: Hpx 600
 

But the N in "ENG" means news, and there are occasions in such work where it's a case of either put the camera away, have very dark pictures, or put in 18db of gain. Noise is then something you have to accept, but obviously the better the camera, the less objectionable it is.

Which is why if a camera is being marketed for news, performance at 18dB is highly significant, as is low light performance generally. If it's not good, it can't be anything other than a negative against the camera - if it's being marketed towards a news market.

Re: Hpx 600
 

I shoot with an old SPX800 P2 camera. It's SD, but it's also f13@2000 and 65db s/n ration. My standard gain settings are +6, +12, and +21, with a user button giving me +30 and +36 if needed in pitch black conditions. Anything above 36db is unusable, as it turns darkness into bright grey static.

The SPX800 is amazing.......with 1/30 sec shutter, and +12db gain, I can shoot a relatively well lit mountainside with my 100 watt light, and you would be hard pressed to make out any grain.

I wish camera manufacturers would make things "cleaner" and "more sensitive" before pressing on to the next generation 4k cams, which will probably be f8@2000 and 45db s/n. :)

That being said, the 600 seems to do very well within it's available gain values.

Re: Hpx 600
 

To get the same low-light, low-grain performance with any of Pana's older 2/3" (SDX900, SPX800) on their newer 1080p cams (HPX600, HPX3100, HPX3700), you'll have to lit your scene up quite a bit. This means bringing a PA with 1x1' LED light on top of your on-cam LED. Try to shoot any dark interior hotel w/ its natural light. It cannot see the nuances w/ out ugly grain noise (3-9 dB). The legacy SPX800 & SDX900 blow away any of the newer 2/3" 1080p camera in low-light performance. I actually have to resort on the good old SDX900 for low-light, non-HD docs. It's extremely clean (low-noise). It's almost like 1.5 to 2-stops more sensitive even at 9 dB w/ equivalent grain of 0 dB on the 2/3" 1080p. But the trade off is 8-bit DV50@480p. Good thing I didn't get rid of the SDX900. Still useful to keep it around for such occasion.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Did I mention NEWS? NO I don't think I did but I shoot news a lot and would dial in such gain if needed but I doubt if the guys back at base would bother if it was noisy at all as it's NEWS! Besides I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to go beyond +6db in the past five years and would have to scratch my head and go into the menu system to select it. I've even just had to go and check how much I actually have on my cameras as it is used so infrequently.

To base a cameras suitability on such criteria is just silly and I leave that to the internet Trolls who think it is the be all and end all for a camera spec.

Most of the sky news guys here use the 3100 anyway and the 301/371 and I know that most of them including me based their choice on +12 or +18db performance and I doubt if the sony users did the same, it may be useful to have but not the total reason for choosing a camera as most news desks will take anything if it has newsworthy footage on it including portrait i-fone footage!

But I think there are certain people who have a mind set that thinks that if a camera can shoot in the dark then it is better and I think it blurs a lot of sensible discussion regarding new camera kit, I do take your point David but I was highlighting how high gain tests can blur peoples opinions on new cameras and it ends up being a feature priority that is seldom used in the field along with overcranking and off speed shooting etc.

Re: Hpx 600
 

But you mentioned the 301/371 and they were heavily promoted towards news. Same is true of the HPX600. To quote from the UK website - "The AG-HPX600 is an interchangeable lens lightweight ENG camera system, remarkable for its IT connectivity and future-ready technology. It is an easy to use solution for news gathering, image production and other applications."
Nobody is suggesting lowlight abilities are the sole criteria for whether any camera from any manufacturer is the best. But I will maintain that it is significant, highly significant for some types of work and it's wrong to simply dismiss it as a "by the way" point.

It's also wrong to try to dismiss the issue with "sadly there are those out there that think you can just dial in +18db and shoot at night then wonder why there is too much noise". Nobody is being that naïve and thinking they can see in the dark (are they? :-) ), but for some work, improved sensitivity of a stop or two can make all the difference - and that's likely to be even more the case in news. From what I've seen, a comparable 3 chip 2/3" camera will have an advantage of over two stops over something like an HPX301 with it's 1/3" chips. That means if the 301 has to be at +18dB to get exposure, the 2/3" will get it at +6dB.

How can you say that is anything other than a significant criteria?
Well, it depends on the work you do, but I disagree that in general it is "seldom used". A colleague of mine recently spent several weeks with the emergency services at night, when any extra lighting was in general forbidden. Fortunately, he had a modern 3 chip 2/3" camera..... News cameramen in war zones? Riots? Even something like a major incident a long way away at night? More mundanely, putting gain in to expose a nighttime background, then lighting foreground to match?

Sure, most cameras are likely to spend most of their lives around the 0dB setting, but on the occasions where you do want a camera that's still fairly clean with high gain, that's when the ability may be most crucial.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Something to keep in mind. Almost all professional cameras have a sensitivity rating at f1.4.

HPX2700 f10@2000 f1.4
HPX370 f10@2000 f1.4

You can get an f1.4 lens with a 1/3 sensor camera, only new and only 2 expensive models, but you will get the listed sensitivity.

You cannot get an f1.4 lens with a 2/3 sensor camera, not an off the shelf one at least, so figure it will typically be f1.8.

Please correct me if I am wrong about this, I just remember seeing these f1.4 figures everytime I have ever researched a camera for the past several decades........never could figure out why they have an f1.4 figure on systems that can't get an f1.4 lens.

That being said, the HPX370 does surprisingly well in low light, and it looks pretty clean up to 12-18db actually. If you want to see some raw night HPX370 footage, check out sandiegonewsvideo.com a local stringer with an HPX370 and 100 watt Lowel ID Light.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Clarification.......f1.4 prism, limited by lens maximum aperture, meaning the 1/3 cameras can open up to the full aperture of the optical block......I hope that made sense and I am not spouting nonsense!

Re: Hpx 600
 

As a very general point, then nowadays you have to take such figures with a big pinch of salt, as it's common to use forms of electronic noise reduction. Such can give a much cleaner looking image - but it comes at a cost, and it's completely wrong to ever think it can ever be as good as any camera which has a better lower basic noise figure.

The problem is that whilst such systems may give an image which looks superficially better, they may typically strip out subtle detail along with the noise, such that any processing of the image is far less satisfactory than on a camera which is inherently less noisy. The problem with the HPX371 was that they "solved" the noisiness of the 301 by such a method, which used a form of interframe averaging. In many ways an improvement, but gave rise to "noise ghosts", such that moving objects against plain backgrounds left a noisy trail behind them. Most of the time it may be barely noticeable, but I saw a test where chromakey was attempted and the noise ghosting then became far more objectionable. (Read: unusable!)

Please don't take this as implying that I therefore think the HPX301/371 a "bad" camera. I'd probably have got one myself, if the PMW320 hadn't come out in the meantime. You have to consider the price, and it does represent a lot of value for money. But in no way will electronic noise reduction ever make up for better basic performance through bigger chips, even 1/2" and certainly 2/3". But if you want a 3 chip 2/3" camera, expect to pay more for it.

Re: Hpx 600
 

Paul, I agree with this sentiment. The SPX 800/900 cameras represented the best of what the "DV era" had to offer. Since resolution was sort of fixed, the camera makers focused on image and feature improvements over a long period of time. It seems that in the "HD era" resolution is this ever changing spec that in itself can be an entire reason for a new camera. This has been seen in the still world a lot.

I am not saying HD cameras are in desparate need of image quality improvements, not at all but I do wish the focus on resolution could be slowed down so we might be able to get to the SPX800 level of refinement with normal HD (720/1080) resolutions. Light sensitivity and CMOS movement have been a tradeoff for resolution with HD cameras. As the resolution goes up, one can only expect this to continue with more noise reduction in the mix...

My main hope is that we get one more round of 1080p cameras that reach a higher level of operational refinement, 1/3" through 2/3" from all of the makers. 4k is fine and will have uses but the majority of folks would befefit from improved 1080p cameras. The PX270 might be the start of that wave. Lets hope.