P2 = PCMCIA Adapter + CF Card?
 

Hi all,

I was just thinking. If you bought one of those handy dandy PCMCIA type II adapters for compact flash cards and stuck the fastest 8GB card (9MB per second minimum transfer rate), would you then be able to use it exactly as a P2 card or is there something proprietary about the P2?

So there are two questions here:
1. Does P2 = PCMCIA Adapter + CF Card?
2. Would the minimum sustained data rate on the fastest CF card be able to keep up with HDV data rates?

I hope this hasn't been addressed elsewhere, I'm just trying to think around the current horrificly expensive P2 issue.

Thanks,

Tyler

Hi Tyler,

Sorry, but that wouldn't work... P2 cards do use standard SD (not CF) flash memory, but there are some proprietary Panasonic components invovled as well.

thats a bummer... would be good to get aafew 6gb microdrives and connect em this way...

saves ALOT of money...

Peter although Chris is 100% correct, don't be suprised to see the market hit with knock offs, my goal is to find a way to get the hvx to write to a pcmcia card that can be hooked up to a harddrive, compact flash array or whatever...the p2 card basically has embedded chips that give the hx the green light, the key is to get microcode and have them always give the green light...

first person that does this i figure will be quite popular...not sure how legal it will be, it involves reverse engineering, but it can be done...

if a p2 card costs $1,000 for 15 minutes of storage, how much wold you pay for a pcmcia card that will give you unlimited storage (of course you supply the storage)

there are issues if compact flash is fast enough without having an array...or maybe just fast enough to write a dvcpro 50 stream...also data integrety would probably suffer....but that may not be an issue for some folks...

The issue of datarate is also addressed by P2 in that the 4 zero defect SD memory devices are arranged in a raid array. Much of the cost of these cards comes from the spec Panasonic places on the makers of the SD devices. They must be zero defect with high operating temp range. This always exacts a premium price for the chipmaker because not all the devices in a given lot will stand up to this specification. Think of these chips as the cream of the crop cause that's literally what they are and are therefore in shorter supply.

-gb-

9 MB/sec = 72 Mbps, which isn't fast enough to capture DVCProHD data at full 100 Mbps quality. But if it's true that the HVX200 will offer 1080/24p with a data rate of 40 Mbps, perhaps that could work if someone jury-rigged a suitable recording solution. Question is, would you trust important footage from this camera to that sort of a recording setup? Nah, the way to get semi-affordable recording on the HVX200 will be to use the Firestore hard drive solution due to ship next March.

The prospect of cheap, re-loadable P2-compatible cards is very tantalizing, of course. The SanDisk Extreme III CF card may actually be a single-chip solution that could be fast enough -- it boasts a minimum sustained write speed of 20 megabytes per second -- which would be enough to handle a DVCPRO-HD data stream. The P2 cards are made of four of those same speed class of SD cards, RAIDed together to get an 80mBps data transfer rate, which is very handy for offloading the card at high speed. But for pure recording of DVCPRO-HD, a single Extreme III could be fast enough (presuming that real-world experience matches the printed specs, that is!)

Then the issue becomes making a PCMCIA-to-CF (or SD) adapter that has the proper protocol chips to speak the "P2" language to the camera. I would think a product such as that would prove enormously popular. I don't think for a moment that it would be as bulletproof as a genuine P2 card, but the prospect of having something that could take an off-the-shelf CF card would be most tantalizing.

The thing is, the 4gb Extreme III chip costs about $600 at retail, and the MSRP on the 4GB P2 card is around $900 right now, so once you factor in street pricing on both, there isn't nearly as dramatic a price difference as one would hope, considering that the P2 card would be four times as fast and presumably more reliable too. However, the ability to walk into B&H and pick up a few extra 4gb Extreme III chips right off the shelf does have appeal!

Another way to go would be to come up with a P2-to-hard-disk type of adapter, for those who need long-form recording. A reverse-engineered P2 chip for compatibility, with a 4GB Extreme III on board for buffering, and a firewire or USB2 port for a drive, so the data could be buffered to the Extreme III and then piped out to the drive as fast as the drive could handle -- that would be a quite popular product too, I would bet.

1080/24p requires the full 100-megabit data rate.

720/24p requires 40mbps.

Thanks Barry, I was wondering if I had that mixed up. So 720/24p would be the way to go to get more mileage out of P2 memory, which isn't a bad option if you like the 24p frame rate. Attach an 80GB DTE recorder and you'd be able to record over four hours of 720p video, which is a pretty decent amount.

If the P2 cards are the biggest stumbling block to making the purchase decision, then no reverse engineering should be necessary. Panasonic should be handing the designs over for a small fee to any third party vendor who they think has the technical expertise to design solutions. They might reserve the right in the contract to approve any design, so no-one is lumbered with lemons.

The amount of profit they might lose on the sale of P2 cards will be more than offset by the increased sales of the HVX. If the P2 cards are analogous to tape then to keep a solution like this proprietary, while it may look attractive to Panasonic corporate, could end up being a marketing blunder. Sony have proved it doesn't matter too much at the professional end of the market with Beta and XDCam, but the prosumer market is much more price sensitive.

Panasonic seem very confident that the card will come down in price as memory cards traditionally have, but only by making the technology competitive and affordable can they achieve this. Relying on the cost of SD chips to plummet will only affect the wholesale price that Panasonic pay and then there will still be a premium on these chips over other solutions. IMO offering the technology for a modest licencing fee can only benefit the entire P2 line of product - including the Panasonic version of the card.

what would be a better option for long form work (alongside the firestore, which i must add, i wasnt too impressed with when using the pro models with my DVX's .. but thats another story) would be to have an EMPTY p2, card whereby you insert your own SD memory cards.

It works thusly..lol (i hate that word)

ok, in the P2 unit you have 4 SD bays, each are numbered.
as its all raided, what u do is insert a numbered SD card to its respective slot.

carry about 16 of these SD cards at 1gb each and it would still end up being cheaper than, but equivalent to 4 P2 4gb cards

when ur ready to transfer the data, just reinsert the cards into their respective slot order and voila..

pretty simple concept, time consuming but workable..

i love the idea of this camera and the recording format, but the costs involved for HD recording are just too costly to justify purchase.. even a firestore wouldnt be enough.. id need to hack the firestore to fit at least a 120gb drive or more, or use 2 firestores.. and doing a 2 camera shoot...well... thats alot of money to fork out...

but what happens when i have 6 weddings in the one month?? Witha n average of 6 to 12 hours of raw material each...??
How many hard drives do i need to simply store all this?? And what happens if one of those HDD's gets nuked? Do i get twice as many drives?? is there a DVCProHD tape backup system available? or do i need to fork out another 15k for a SD DVCPro50 taoe deck jsut as a worst case scenario option??

it all comes down to how much money its going to cost NOW and in the future.. as well as how much money im likely to make with the unit being a part of the sale process, but right now, i jsut dont see any of this....not one of my potential clients have asked for HD. I do ALOT of corporate work, moreso than weddings, and even with this, theyre really not to phased.. their concern is watchability...

Im gettin bookings over companies which are shooting and deliverin in HDV (i dont use my Z1s for weddings, as low light performance sux the big one and i despise the chunky form factor/ergonomics of these units) but its clear that the wedding and event clientelle are still in the dark about HD and its delivery options. The Z1's were a bad buy decision... at this time at least.. thers no need for them... unless im doing commercial stuff where im delivering in Digibeta or xfering to dvcpro50.. but that another story

No, right now, the risks vs price vs $$ return just doesnt justify using P2 (for me anyway)
I honestly wish i could say differently, but i cant.. i really dont want this camera to fail as i love my DVX's but to be honest, for longform work, it just wont work... not yet anyway...

OK, here is an idea. If JVC can make a very small HDV portable deck, why can Panasonic? Will it kill them to make a smal miniDV deck that you can somehow hook up to the HVX (maybe even screw under it to the tripod mount ala Bechteck)? Hook it to a P2 adapter or straight to the FW port.
IM sure it could cost under 1500 and will provide unlimited PERMANENT storage for cents on the GByte. So if people whant their HDV, give htem their HDV (tapes that is).

With such a solution I would preorder a HVX right away, with the current P2 or firestore (maybe) options the camera is a NO, NO, for me.

Umm... the camera is not an HDV camera. Panasonic is not part of the HDV consortium, nor do they seem to want to be... Panasonic is attempting to offer what most people consider a superior format to HDV (DVCPROHD) at a fraction of the cost that it is currently available at. The only way to do this was to not use tape, as the DVCPRO HD tape deck would cost more than twice the cost of this camera. So to be competitive with HDV, and yet offer something "better", Panasonic went P2...

Decks
 

Call it what ever you whant, but give us a deck. Im pretty sure that with todays technology and decades of deck making experience Panasonic can come up with a rather inexpensive way to capture the HVX output on tape.

And Im sure they can do it for under $5000, and that is what?, a couple of P2 cards that give you less than an hour of HD? I will gladly pay for it.

Im sorry, but any other explanation than Panny trying to force their P2 platform down our throats won't convince me.

Not that Sony is any better (think Betamax, Memory sticks, XDcam, etc), but I think Panny screwed this one. Unless until I can get P2 cards that store an hour of video for $29, the price of XDCam discs.

The costs of a 16 head DVCPRO HD deck are well documented and $5000 ain't cutting it. But the other thing you have to look at is that P2 is not "one-use" media, like tape. It's something you use over and over again. Technically you could buy three and pretty much never buy again. It's all a matter of switching from a workflow based on analog and tape to one based on the IT infastructure that video/film production is going to... but to each their own.

I totally agree, we are going towards Solid State, and I have been wishing this since the times of U-Matic....but....I trully think the time is not here yet.

Look at the PDA market, its huge....saddly, when Apple introduced the Newton, nobody bought it. I simply think the technology/price for a shift to solid state is not here yet.

Digital technology has created a much faster workflow, P2 creats a bump in the road. I simply don t like a format that the first thing I have to do after (or while) shooting is rush to some deck/station/notebook/etc to transfer my footage while A:Waiting and handling stuff B: Hoping nothing goes wrong in the process and I dont loose my footage that is only electronic memory, not a more permanent format.

the future is probably here ?
http://www.barefeats.com/fire43.html

Panasonic *IS* making the P2 format available to developers and manufacturers. All the pieces are in place for third-party vendors to jump on board and start making P2 cards. I think right now we're caught in a catch-22 situation though. A lot of vendors aren't going to want to start cranking out P2 media until the camera is available and they can start seeing some initial sales figures. But a lot of potential customers may hold off until they see P2 prices fall a bit.

P2 cards will undoubtedly come down in price, even if Panasonic remains the sole supplier for a while. P2 media is already a semi-established standard being used by other Panasonic devices. It's a very limited use media right now, but the HVX200 will not be the first camera to make use of it. This should help somewhat. And for studios and broadcasters that are already equipped to work with DVCPro[HD], the HVX200 is a very logical purchase as it will still record in a format they can deal with and will provide short feature HD capabilities immediately with potential for longer HD shoots as the P2 format matures.

Already done. Panasonic offers a couple of VTR choices in the DVCPRO HD format. Of course, the least expensive one costs about $20,000. Some people seem to have difficulty realizing that this is not an HDV camcorder and the HDV tape format is in no way involved here. If you want to capture the HVX output to tape, then it sort of negates the advantages of P2, but it's certainly possible. But at $20,000, the DVCPRO HD deck is probably a rental item for most folks. Still, it's do-able, but the whole point of P2 is to completely bypass the shortcomings of tape, so why even bother... but you say you want a deck, well, the DVCPRO HD decks have been available long before P2.

I've never understood this sort of comment... you could say that P2 is being "forced down our throats" perhaps if there were no other options. But there are plenty of other options, other formats, other choices that you have readily available. You don't want P2? Then don't buy it. It's that simple. Panasonic will sell every single HVX they make, as well as every single P2 card. You don't want to be a part of that, fine, but you can't pretend as if you have no other choice. Nobody is forcing anything "down our throats." You vote with your dollars. You buy what you want.

What you're not understanding is that P2 is not a storage medium. You don't store your digital photos on your digicam's flash card... you clear the card and store the photos on some other media. P2 is memory, not media. Flash memory is meant to be downloaded, cleared, and reused over and over again. If you can't grasp that concept, then you're not understanding P2.

You may choose to think that, but the reality is that solid state is here (actually has been here) for those who want it. After all this is not Panasonic's first P2 camera. Plus, I've been writing about the practical applications of tapeless video acquisition since 2001. It's here, all right, for those who want it.

Digital video on tape is nothing but ones and zeros on magnetic media, there's nothing very permanent about it. Store a tape next to an audio speaker and see how permanent it is. Browse our "Long Black Line" forum and see how robust and reliable tape is (one quick glance at all the various problems in there should be all it takes).

If you don't like the P2 workflow... where the whole point is how fast and easy it is to ingest video into an edit system... then clearly it's not for you. Someone who states that they're "afraid of losing data" with solid state clearly has never shot that way, and such a statement is basically expressing fear of the unknown. There is no "hoping nothing will go wrong" involved with solid state, or allow me to put it this way: there's much less hoping nothing will go wrong with solid state than there is with tape. You face a much greater danger of having something go wrong with tape, than you do with solid state.

Ultimately what's most important is that you have a choice between tape (in a variety of formats) or solid state (including P2) or hard disk recording (such as the FireStore and its derivatives). We cover all of that here at DV Info Net. If you've determined that P2 isn't right for you, then I'm sure you'll find another viable acquisition choice to discuss on our message boards. Hope this helps,

Phew Chris, you sure are sold on P2! You seem to totally ignore the realities some people face in terms of the need to archive to tape or some other transportable media. As a documentary filmmaker I'd find the P2 workflow problematic to say the least. I predict that many who rush in and buy the HVX200 are going to end up spending a LOT more money than they'd initially planned to once storage and archiving costs begin to bite. It's a great technology, it's been around for a few years, and it still has not managed to grab a substantial market share, because P2 cards are just too expensive! With XDCAM HD out soon, it's going to be a hard sell...

Hi Chris,

First, I would appreciate if you don't try to patronize me or think that attacking the messenger is a way to kill the message. Just so you know Im a second generation TV "person", in fact Im a true "child of TV", my mother was a news anchor and my father a news cameraman, they met at the TV station were they worked, fell in love, married, then I was born, then they founded a TV production company. I literally grew playing with rolls of film. I got my first official badge as a camera assist. at age 12 so since Im 37 now thats 25 years in the TV business. I started working with a CP 16mm sinc sound camera and since then Ive used every camera and format that has come out.
For 15 years Ive worked for APTN and served their top clients (BBC,ABC, RTE,CNN, etc) Ive done everthing from new3s to docus, to films, shows, you name it. If you want a list of just the things Ive done since I came to the US 2 years ago, read here : http://imdb.com/name/nm1690997/

So all this said..... I do understand what a P2 card is, and I do understand thats it is JUST a capture format and all that comes with it.

And apparently so do broadcasters worldwide. According to Panasonic information ONLY 150 TV stations worldwide have adopted P2, while it is estimated that the number that adopted XDCam are over 5000.

And I stand by the idea that Panny is trying to sell us this format. You say I have options.... yes, I have , but not If I want to buy the HVX. I happen to like the idea of what the camera can deliver, I dont like the limitation it has in how it can deliver it. Do I have options?, very very few.

Regarding tapes, Ive been using them for more than 20 years, I have placed them in the worst possible places and environments, never had a big problem.
Cant say the same thing about flash cards.

And comparing the needs and workflow of still photography with the needs of TV/Film production is simply like comparing Apples and Oranges.

Flash cards are great for still photography, but at the current price, capacity and how they fit into the work flow and archiving, they are simply not a very good idea.

Will the HVX have a niche, of course, will it be a big one, most certainly not. In fact, your statement that Panasonic will sell every single HVX they produce will be true if they manufacture a very small amount. It is estimate that Sony has sold between 80.000 and 100.000 HDV cameras since they introduced the FX/Z1, Id like to see the HVX get to that kind of numbers. I dont think they will in the lifetime of the model.

Look, solid state is a great idea, and probably it will be huge sometime down the road (5 years+) but its simply not there yet.

Hi Derek, I am not "sold" on P2 at all; I simply understand it both for what it is and isn't. And I certainly do understand the needs of some people to archive to tape; see my earlier posts in this forum about archiving to DLT, which probably makes the most sense for the money. P2 is simply how the data gets to the editing computer. Archival from that point is no different than it would be with any other 100mbps HD format. There's a broad range of options for archiving. In my opinion, tape-based DLT makes the most sense but there are other solutions to choose from. If you want to be shooting tape and archiving those camera originals right from the start, then DVCPRO HD, if you can afford it, is your format.

Problematic for you, perhaps, but not for everyone. Clearly P2 was originally intended for news. Some filmmakers will embrace it, some will not; as you know there is no "one way" and no single correct approach to such a diverse artistic form as filmmaking. P2 will be right for some filmmakers and not for others.

Not if they're properly educated they won't, which is the whole idea behind this forum and its accompanying site, www.p2info.net. As long as HVX200 buyers understand that this is a DVCPRO HD camera, with the storage and archival requirements associated with that format, then there's no surprise involved. P2 itself doesn't really have anything to do with this. P2 is simply the means of getting the video data into the system. Storage and archival requirements are a function of the format, and that's the difference between DVCPRO HD, DVCPRO 50 and plain vanilla DV. The HVX200 buyer needs to understand the requirements of working with the DVCPRO HD format. And if they're not ready to takle the storage and archival requirements of a 100mbps format, there's still the option of recording 50mbps (DVCPRO 50) and 25mbps (DV or DVCPRO).

Thankfully since this is a practical community discussing usability, market share is happily no concern of ours. But it's important to realize that P2 cards are not at all expensive, compared to your other options of acquiring DVCPRO HD. You need only a handful of cards, and they pay for themselves quickly, compared to the cost of DVCPRO HD tape stock plus the $20,000 deck needed to play DVCPRO HD tapes. That is, relative to your other choices for shooting DVCPRO HD, P2 is a bargain in comparison to DVCPRO HD tape and its requisite hardware.

I doubt it. XDCAM HD certainly has its place but it won't available under $10K like the HVX.

Hi Adrian, you were not being patronized and besides we don't allow that here (see our policy page above). This is not your typical internet message board. You were not being attacked, and I saw no message at all, only a question regarding HVX output to tape. And I answered that: the HD format of this camera is DVCPRO HD. The least expensive DVCPRO HD deck costs in the neighborhood of $20,000. There is no $5,000 option. The tape transport for DVCPRO HD by itself runs about $16,000.

Then we're clear that it's not a storage medium like tape is... great.

To that I would have to say: so what? I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. You're still new to DV Info Net... this community is not about who sells more or what the market share is... none of that means anything here. This is a *usability* forum. I don't care how narrow the niche market is for this technology; if people want to talk about *using* it, then this is the place. The last thing I want to see here is anything close to a platform war... I don't have an XDCAM board up yet but there probably will be one very soon here. Point being, and this is a crucial thing to understand about this message board, we don't do platform wars. If you're convinced that this technology isn't right for you, then please move on to one of our other forums. The number of units sold by Brand X over Brand Y doesn't directly impact the end user's direct experience with the camera, and although that may be a hot topic for some folks, it isn't what we do here. In all honesty, I started this community to get away from that sort of needless, pointless debate about market share and numbers and all that nonsense. There are a variety of other message boards out on the net that specialize in that sort of thing, but this ain't one of them.

Please permit me to respectfully suggest that perhaps your expectations are not altogether completely realistic. The HVX200 offers a way to shoot DVCPRO HD for under $10,000. The fact that it is a P2 camera based on flash memory negates the need for a $20,000 DVCPRO HD tape deck, plus it entirely bypasses the video capture process. Buying into this camera means that you can shoot DVCPRO HD for subtantially less than it would cost to shoot DVCPRO HD on tape.

The next best way to shoot DVCPRO HD is with the VariCam, for a significant increase in price. My own best advice is to first choose your format... determine what kind of workflow is best for what you do... then choose the camera. Shooting DVCPRO HD on tape is one thing, at an entirely different, much higher level of cost than shooting DVCPRO HD on P2 cards with the HVX200. And while clearly the P2 workflow does not suit everyone, and may not suit you, you still have to consider the other alternatives for acquiring DVCPRO HD. There are other ways to shoot DVCPRO HD, and they're definitely tape based, but the associated costs are dramatically higher. The little HVX P2 camcorder is the most affordable way to shoot in the DVCPRO HD format. You have to compare it to the other available options for DVCPRO HD in order to see that. But then there's also the 100GB FireStore for this camcorder... again not a practical solution for everyone... but it's definitely another possible way to go.

Again, happily this is of absolutely no concern here at DV Info Net. How many are made or sold compared to whoever else, makes no tangible difference whatsoever to the proceedings at this online community. All that matters is that whether Panasonic sells five units or fifty thousand, there will be a place here on these message boards for their owners to discuss them.

And once again... perhaps *you* feel this way... but others, myself included, do not agree. Solid state is here right now, if you want it. Or at least it will be at a price point below $10K within a month or two from now.