DV Info Net - Best editing platform for HVX?

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"The ideal solution would be for Vegas to just announce support is coming. Native MXF Op-Atom support with a DirectX DV100 codec. That would be the ultimate HVX editing platform."

have you put in a request or asked sony if they plan to add native DVCproHD or a DirectX 100 codec support in Vegas ?

i did ask them at NAB and at that time they said they had not received any request for it .. so start asking them ... in general for DvcProHd there has been little native support for it in NLE's ...maybe that will change in 2006 ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Well David, -- well, wow. I wish you all the best. That's sad to hear that you may not have as much time as you should, and I hope you can accomplish what you set out to do.

First question is: do you really need an HVX, much less two of them? If your primary distribution goal is DVD, a DVX can handle that superbly, and it would be much, much less expensive, and the editing platforms would be less expensive, and the options for editing are much more wide open.

For a potential film transfer or a high-def release, obviously the HVX would be much better -- I'm just thinking that if money's tight enough that you're borrowing against your house to do this, you may want to consider just using the DVX100As, since you already have them and can already edit the footage. DVXes make excellent, excellent DVDs. The HVX could make 'em somewhat better, but if I was the one doing the budget for you, I'd have to wonder whether the expense of the HVXes plus new computers plus new software would all add up to the best place to put the money you have. I'm not saying the HVX won't be better, as I'm sure it will -- but will it be $20,000 or $25,000 better? Only you can answer that, but I would wonder. There've been a few DVX documentaries blown up to film, like Murderball, so it's not unheard of. And I'm not trying to talk you out of the HVX, I'm just saying that -- well, it's amazing how many things there are to pay for when making a film, so careful budgetary management will be required, and unless you have some specific reason as to why the HVX is worth spending the dough on (when you already have two DVX100A's), then I would say you should probably examine your reasoning most carefully. If you stayed on the DVX, you could continue to use your same editing software, etc.

A great script doctor is a good idea, hopefully you have a great one (there are a lot out there who aren't!) For script evaluation I recommend Craig Kellem of www.hollywoodscript.com, he's talented and very experienced and does a great job at a great rate. Not a script Doctor, per se, but someone who knows stories inside and out, an ex-ICM agent, the producer of The Rutles movie, etc -- he's been around and he understands scripts.

If you decide that you do want to go the HVX route, and you're looking at new editing computers, I'd have to say that the Mac is looking pretty darn interesting. Canopus may (or may not) prove to be a more compatible solution for my style of editing, but recognize that I'm not out there trying to hire myself out to get jobs as an editor. For someone who may do that, I think FCP is probably the much wiser choice, as it enjoys substantially wider market penetration in production houses than Canopus or Vegas likely ever will.

Thanks for the input Barry. I got much the same advice from Shawn who is doing the re-write of the script. His recommendation is that I rent an HVX and see if I like it, and I may do that if they are available well before my planned shooting schedule in June. He also pointed out that the Cohen bros among others use FCP so it looks like it may be the best way for me to go. I do hope to do a good enough job that the film is picked up by a distributor. The story is the first of a trilogy, and I'm planning to shoot all three with the HVX if Holy War is successful. There have been so many stories lately that are re treads of other movies or TV shows, and what I write is very well, unique, so hopefully that will work in my favor.

As for the DVX's I have, though I did buy and install the 16X9 AG-LA7200G lens for them, they have limitations on use. They are harder to focus, have no auto stabilization available and though I don't use it, no auto focus. For moving shots they have limitations and are harder to use that the HVX should be. For what I'm trying to do I think the HVX will be a better platform, and I won't have to move up again camera wise if the first film is successful. Also the workflow should be a bit easier if everything is tape less. Having said that I'll be watching what you and others report on the HVX and will hold off until I see how they match up to the hype.

As for taking out the second, well the truth is that with over 25 years left on my first, I'll never live long enough to pay it off and be able to retire, so this is my best shot to do both. My best asset is my creative mind and I need to put it to my best use while I can still use it. Thank you for your reply, and I look forward to reading what you have to say about the HVX and the software and hardware to make it fly.

David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

From what I understand, there was a codec revision from FCP4.5 to FCP5 -- supposed to have fixed a color-shift issue. Am I right on that? I saw a color shift in a file that someone compressed in FCP4.5 for me, and the Avid codec retained perfect color. Anyone know for sure?

It's still got issues. I think the aliasing I saw on the "Tosh" website composite pic was particularly due to this:

Captured to FCP DVCPRO HD
rendered as a second pass of compression to create the composite
Color filtering in QT codec still screwed up

That pic had obvious blurring applied to the edges (around the hair of the guy and girl) in order to make it look better.

One area where DVCPRO HD really sucked, was in applying a long (4-5) second fade to black on a high contrast scene that had fog and shafts of light. (Think dark Bladerunner stuff) Banding like a mofo. I know this is most likely an issue with 8 bit codecs in general, but it was just plain awful rendered in DVCPRO HD. You either have to apply some dithering noise to the transition or import the clip into After Effects or Motion and render it in a 10 bit codec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

One area where DVCPRO HD really sucked... it was just plain awful rendered in DVCPRO HD. You either have to apply some dithering noise to the transition or import the clip into After Effects or Motion and render it in a 10 bit codec.

Shouldn't one be mastering to Uncompressed 10-bit in the first place? I think yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins

Shouldn't one be mastering to Uncompressed 10-bit in the first place? I think yes.

Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.

Both of those sound great to me. However, most likely by the time it hits any distribution format, it won't look nearly as good as your uncompressed master, or even a DVCPROHD master, unless you're going film out. Now let's think of how it'll look on someone's Tivo. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Donatello

have you put in a request or asked sony if they plan to add native DVCproHD or a DirectX 100 codec support in Vegas ?

Oh heavens yes. Several threads on the official Sony Vegas forum, as well as on DVXUser, direct contact with them at trade shows, and even a conference call with some Vegas employees. They're well aware that we want it.

Quote:

in general for DvcProHd there has been little native support for it in NLE's ...maybe that will change in 2006 ?

The "big two", Avid and FCP, have it already and have had it for a while. Canoups has full support. Liquid is expected to support it -- they already have MXF support, it's probably just a matter of integrating a DV100 codec and Avid happens to make one and coincidentally they just bought Pinnacle, so it seems likely that Pinnacle/Avid Liquid will support it.

The only major-market-share players that don't have native support yet are Premiere and Vegas. Rumors abound that Premiere Pro 2.0 will have support. Haven't heard any encouraging rumors about Vegas yet.

Yes its a sad day for Vegas. Barry Green is dropping it as his NLE, and moving out of Vegas Nevada in disgust to make a point. No more Vegas love.

:(

Has anyone tried the Edius Demo from Canopus? I cant get it to even run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.

Here is an interesting workflow that many of us may be following in the near future and even tho Preimere Pro will have a DVCPRO HD codec I think this may be better....

Article:

http://www.videosystems.com/mag/vide...sician_laptop/

Final Video:

http://www.formikafilms.com/cactusflower/JG480p.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

FCP is a great tool, but it still has some codec issues as far as rendering DVCPRO HD goes.

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

"render with caution"

This is VERY VERY worrying... Specially on the dv50 file... SO, basically, if I render a clip with effects for 10x, it gets white???? No , thank you!

The dvcprohd didn't show much trouble, tough.

So there really is a generational loss if you apply Effects and transitions to a clip in FCP. I always felt that, after applying and effect on a certain clip, it got worse (not very noticeable, but you could see a slight difference in quality).
Any way to get over this? Will deleting the preview files save us from this generational loss? How to avoid it without having to recapture everything? Not using uncompressed, of course...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Perez

There should be NO reason that anyone goes through 10 freakin generations of compression. It's just to test degradation in general.

Never use any of these compression formats any more than you have to.

I advise using the native codec while editing, color correction, maybe some compositing, only. Then for your finished master, use Uncompressed 10-bit . Then use that to encode or output to whatever your final distribution format is.

Do this by changing the compressor setting under Sequence Settings (Command-0). Very nice workflow.

I would start using Uncompressed instead of the native codec if I was doing green/blue screen key work, but I'd do that in After Effects on uncompressed exported clips from FCP anyway. Other special effects work, I would also do in Uncompressed. If the project looks like most of it is of this type, and not barebones FCP work on the original DVCPRO/DVCPROHD files, I would probably switch the entire project over to Uncompressed to work through it.

It can be argued that eventually you will have to compress your footage again, whether it's printing to DVCPRO50, DVCPROHD, HDCAM, Mpeg2, H.264, WMV, etc. But at least it's only twice compressed. Once when you shot it, and once you deliver it. If it's going to broadcast, it'll get compressed yet a third time, and we'll never be too impressed with it at that point, compared to what we saw in our master.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

FCP is a great tool, but it still has some codec issues as far as rendering DVCPRO HD goes.

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

"render with caution"

Uhhh... are you aware that site hasnt been updated in 17 months?

ash =o)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins

Thanks for the suggested workflow. Much appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarred Land

Has anyone tried the Edius Demo from Canopus? I cant get it to even run.

If the problem continues, why not ask over at the Canopus Edius forum?
http://forum.canopus.com/
You will need to register to do that.

Canopus just announced "Edius Broadcast" for 1k or 500 bucks upgrade from Edius 3 which has support for Panasonic DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO HD,
Panasonic DVCPRO P2,Panasonic VariCam,Sony XDCAM,Windows Media(HD)...along with all other formats(DV,Mpeg etc) on the same timeline...and that is running OHCI without a hardware card...take a look http://www.canopus.com/products/EDIU...cast/index.php

The package is Edius 3.0 NLE plus all the plugins and codec options bundled together. Also 4.0 is coming and all of the features mentioned lacking here are being addressed....like better keyframe control of effects. 4.0 will be a big jump for Edius which isn't to shabby right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato

Canopus just announced "Edius Broadcast" for 1k or 500 bucks upgrade from Edius 3 which has support for Panasonic DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO HD

Edius Broadcast is available to order now through authorized dealers. I downloaded the Edius Pro demo today and will give it a test drive tomorrow. From what I've read/seen thus far, it looks promising and probably a better solution than Avid for me. Avid's Liquid Pro is more of a "prosumer" solution and it doesn't directly support DVCPro (just HDV at the moment) and to go to Avid's Xpress Studio HD, it's more than double the cost of Edius Broadcast. So far, my only concerns are the audio capabilities. This is where I really wish I could hold onto Vegas. But for $1K or thereabouts, Edius may be the solution of choice, even if it's an interim one until Vegas or Premiere catch up with DVCPRO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

So far, my only concerns are the audio capabilities. This is where I really wish I could hold onto Vegas. But for $1K or thereabouts, Edius may be the solution of choice, even if it's an interim one until Vegas or Premiere catch up with DVCPRO.

It is a valid concern but we do audio in an app like Audition or SoundForge. The lack of audio tools has its roots in the fact that Edius is designed with RT full frame full resolution output to external monitor as an overiding goal. To do that audio/video synch via the hardware cards holds them back from allowing you to play too much with the audio.Also VSts work with Edius. There has been some talk of an ability to work with proTools and that would solve it but for now the audio is indeed lacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato

Canopus just announced "Edius Broadcast" for 1k or 500 bucks upgrade from Edius 3 which has support for Panasonic DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO HD...

Thanks Randy! I hadn't seen this concise a summary of what Edius Broadcast does or what the pricing was. Guess now I know what I need to put on my shopping list for next year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

Uhhh... are you aware that site hasnt been updated in 17 months?

Well, you learn something new everyday! I found the site (which is still linked to) via Mike Curtis' hdforindies.com blog. All I can tell you is my own experiences with DVCPROHD are mixed. It's a great codec for editing, mostly just because it's intraframe, but people talking about how well it'll hold up for color correction are maybe a tad off. I think it has the same issues as regular DV, but the heavier compression might be masked a bit due to the higher resolution frames and 4.2.2

The poster who said the workflow should be edit in DVCPRO and rerender a final sequence in 10 bit uncompressed is spot on...provided you have the RAID to deal with it.

When there's time, I'll post a few frames from a film I've worked on, and show you where the codec goes to hell.

There is a lot out there on DVCPro HD and the pros and cons....it is a great editing format and far supieror to .m2t(HDV) as an aqusition format but the biggest drawback is the luma sampling is 1280...HDCAM and Canopus HQ are both 1440 but the trade off is DVCPro is 100Mbps and HDCAM is 140Mbps with HQ averaging close to 120-140 since it is variable. HQ does give you Chroma sub-sampling at 720....DVCPro is 640 and HDCAM is 480. You do need a horse of a macine to edit HQ(which is also intraframe) and you have to convert so it is all about trade-offs. Bottom line IMHO to be able to aquire DVCPRO HD for 10k with P2s or Firestores is incredible and a big step in the right direction for people who can't afford Varicam...nobody I know can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Rumors abound that Premiere Pro 2.0 will have support. Haven't heard any encouraging rumors about Vegas yet.

Really? Do we know when to expect Premiere Pro 2?

I am in the position of really, really wanting that camera but not wanting to purchase a whole new editing platform with which to make use of it...

Barry can you comment on this???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

I am a PC and MAC guy who just did a feature doc in premiere pro... I just upgraded to a Quad G5 FCP system, it is just more solid and standard for HD and the industry in general. Not better... just more standard.

Barry, those numbers cannot be correct... On a quad G5 with a FIBRE RAID, I can get MAX 6-8 streams in 720/24p... most the time I get 4-6 with 1080/60. When using a LaCie serial raid we got 3-5 streams MAX. That is all numbers for DVCproHD which is 8-bit. The key seems to be HDD speed, moreso than processor speed.

ash =o)

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hewat

Really? Do we know when to expect Premiere Pro 2?

Nobody who actually knows anything is talking, so it's all just rumor and speculation. Premiere Pro 1.5 was introduced almost two years ago at NAB (or shortly thereafter) in April 2004, so it would seem that expecting an update at NAB this year wouldn't be out of line. But that is absolute 100% unsubstantiated speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans ter Lingen

Barry can you comment on this???

I am reporting what I (believe I) heard from the Apple rep at DV Expo. Obviously I could have gotten it wrong, but I am almost 100% sure that I heard six streams on a powerbook, 11 streams on a desktop. Maybe the bit about six streams "on the internal drive" is crazy, maybe it was referring to external storage, I don't know.

I am not (yet) a Mac user, so I don't have anything to add to this, I'm just relaying what I was told at the Apple demo at DV Expo.