Cineporter vs. 60gig iPod
 

Important things to say first -
1) I'm sure the quality of the cineporter and reasons for using it will blow the iPod out of the water.
2) I'm starting this thread as a central place to talk about these two options. I've read other posts here and there about both of them, but at this point not enough to make any decisions on which one I'll pursue (if either).
3) This thread is a product of something Kaku brought up in "HVX200/Mac - Who's Taking this Route?"
(direct link here to this thread here - http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=57531)

So what would be the pro's and con's for each of these storage solutions?

iPod -
Pro's:
1) cheap
2) seems to be working
3) easy to find
4) available now

Con's:
1) not really meant for this purpose
2) could be some issues?

Cineporter -
Pro's:
1) specifically designed for the HVX200 and P2
2) stores more

Con's:
1) expensive (when compared to an iPod)

That's what I'm thinking right now, today, this hour.

My first concern with the Ipod solution is battery life. Sure a typical ipod can last for 10-12 hours of music. That sounds great. But my logic tells me that when playing music the ipod will essentially preload a song from it's hard drive into a RAM buffer....I don't know how much RAM is on an ipod but there must be at least 8MB. So each song loads from the hard disk in a matter of seconds and then it plays from RAM....sound right? If this is accurate the Ipod woould not draw as much power from the battery when playing from ram as if it were streaming constantly from the hard disk.

However if you are copying data to the hard drive over and over that might draw more power and thus make the ipod run down much quicker. I don't know if this is accurate but it is a concern. I would think that it is obvious that you won't get the same battery life out of it as you would using it as a portable music player. BUt the difference is what is the question here.

Kaku is the only one I know on eactually using this method. Maybe he can shed some light on the lifespan of his ipod being used this way.

One huge CON for the iPod is that you can't record to the iPod. The Cineporter is a recording device. The iPod is only storage device. So the length of your shot is limited with the iPod. And you are also adding time to the workflow by copying over shots to the iPod every handful of minutes.

If all of that is OK with you, then I still think there will be better options than the iPod, because once you use the iPod for this purpose, it will no longer be an iPod. You can never use it again with iTunes and as a player, etc. It seems that if you are looking for a storage device only, then a self-powered USB or firewire drive seems a much better alternative

I fully charged the iPod and took three HVX batteries to shoot some stuff. I ran out of HVX batteries then still had battery left on my iPod. One good point, iPod charges itself while it is connected to G5 for bringing in the clips to FCP. How nice.

But If I get something like CinePorter, I would put my iPod back to a music player for my car. I'm using iPod for now just because I don't have any battery operated small firewre hard disk drive.

Kaku,
I guess the more important question is about how many "offloads" of P2 did you do on the IPOD. Since it is a 60GB Ipod the max it could hold would be 15 or so. If it can have 15 offloads without losing it's charge that is all that really matters since when you are not offloading it can just go to sleep and save the battery.

Thanks!

In my business your work - and your shoot - is only as successful as the reliability of the hardware you're using. I wouldn't want to trust the iPod to work under the rigors of a professional shoot and have it die, get a glitch etc.

Another thing to consider is support. Apple does not have pro-level support for any of it's "i" products. Ever try to get tech support for Keynote, iTunes or iDVD? If the tech person on the phone can't help you troubleshoot it and the help isn't on the web, you're screwed.

The Cineporter is a product designed for working professionals; yes it's more costly than an iPod but it will also be much better supported by the manufacturer.

However, my workflow plan for my HVX project will be to shoot to the 2 8gb P2 cards in the camera, then transfer the clips directly to an external Firewire drive (probably an OWC Mercury Elite), reformat the P2 cards and go on. I would have preferred to be able to use the Cineporter but it won't be available in time to use in my production.

I'm quoting myself and disagreeing with myself i know. But I think I was incorrect in saying that because if the HVX is in host mode it's just transferring files. The reformatting of drives (i.e. lose iPod functionality) would only happen if you were recording to the drive directly. And we know the iPod is not capable of that. Sorry for the misinformation.

I don't think that is accurate either Brian.......I thought the very first thing that happens to a portable drive that is to be used as an "offload" device is that the HVX must first format it. I thought that is what Barry said. Obviously you cannot record "live" to it but even for offloading it has to be specially formatted. I think......

So Kaku, is your iPod and iPod still? Did you delete all of the functionality of the iPod by having to format it? Hopefully you didn't just lose an iPod and gain a 60gig drive without realizing it.

yes... ipod will no longer be ipod after mating with HVX...

Ipods are not made for transferring files, I have killed 3 of them by using them as an external HDD to move files from home to work and back. For the same price as a 60gb video ipod you can get a used Thinkpad or Ibook! You can also get a battery operated external enclosure, etc. Ipod is a bad bad bad bad choice, a novelty yes, but just a workaround...




ash =o)

This is not correct. When the HVX is in host mode, it must format the drive before it can use it. Formatting the drive involves erasing/deleting all partitions. It then allocates a new partition for each card that you transfer over.

So if you want to use the ipod, you have to make a decision: is it a music player? Or is it a P2 offload device? Can't be both.

So I was originally correct. Dang it. Why didn't i just stick to my guns.

So Kaku, do you realize that you don't have an iPod anymore? You mentioned that once you get a Cineporter or something you'd put the iPod back in your car to use as a music player. Apparently, that's not really an option anymore. You have a 60gig harddrive now.

If you've backed it up to a computer, you should be able to restore it completely. So it can go back to being an ipod, but while it's an ipod it cannot be used for offloading HVX footage. And while it's an HVX offloading device, it cannot be used as an ipod.

I don't think the iPod is a cost efficient solution. Aren't there battery powered Hard Drives with larger capacity and lower price?

I agree with Robert. That reason combined with the fact that there are hard drive solutions out there that offer more gig's of space and more reliabilty, for less money would prevent me from trying the iPod route. And everyone else above had good points.

This morning I was looking around on-line and found some interesting little hard drives from Lacie:
Little Big Disk Triple Interface External Hard Drive FireWire 800/400.
They range in size from 160 gig (priced at $390) to 320 gig (priced at $770).
I like this option the best so far because I could carry one of these with me. Capture the footage, transfer the footage directly from the HVX200 to the HardDrive (I think?), clear the card and start over again.

Once I was finished capturing the footage for whatever I was working on and returned to my desktop at home, I would then plug this hard drive into my Mac, set the scratch disk in Final Cut Pro to point to it. From that point, anything I did associated with that project would be on that hard drive. I would save all media, such as music, graphics, video, etc to that specifc drive. I work on two Mac's in two locations, and I *think* this would allow me to easily take the project back and forth.

With something like the Cineporter (If I understand correctly) - I would transfer the footage from the P2 to the Cineporter. Then I would have to transfer the footage from the Cineporter to another hard drive. I feel there's an extra step in that process that's not necessary.

This is my theory at least.

Does the external drive require to be selfpowered? Are those portable drives that run on the energy from the computer can be used on the HVX200, or do they require some sort of battery or AC cord? iomega has some solutions like these.

Here's the write up -
- - - - -
More compact and much faster than conventional hard drives, this small portable triple interface powerhouse boasts unmatched high capacity and speed for its size. Exclusively designed by Neil Poulton for LaCie, it has a unique sturdy, aluminum body engineered to dissipate heat without a fan, for silent operation. It offers the universal connectivity of Triple Interface (2 x FireWire 800, 1 x FireWire 400 and 1 x USB 2.0 ports). FireWire bus-powered, there's no need for a cumbersome AC adapter* and it's capable of FireWire daisy-chaining. With unrivaled portable speed and built-in RAID 0, it's ideal for demanding users such as audio-video professionals who need mega mobile storage.
- - - - -

Just copy and paste this phrase into Google and you can see more details from a few different places that sell it:
LaCie Little Big Disk Triple Interface External Hard Drive

I don't know if this will work since I don't have either the HVX200 or the LaCie, but the second I get my HVX200, I'm going to have to try to find the best storage solution for my workflow. At this point (today, right now, this hour) this looks like the storage solution I would buy.

Edwin, I'm going to look into the Iomega's as well now. Thanks for mentioning that hard drive storage option as well.

Well, yes, there are many, but they're pretty much all USB2. Firewire battery-powered enclosures appear to be nearly nonexistent. And the HVX offloads through firewire, so that's what we're all searching for. The older ipod can act as a battery-powered firewire drive, which is why it's garnering interest.

For use with an HVX, "firewire bus-powered" is irrelevant, as the HVX doesn't supply bus power. You would still have to use an AC adapter. Or find a self-battery-powered enclosure.

I'm thinking about Rugged LaCie and some 3rd party battery for that.
Any suggestions for the battery?

Is there a limit to the hard drive size or the number of partitions? I think I recall seeing an error message in the manual saying "too many partitions". This possibly eludes to only so many "dumps" being made to the hard drive before the HVX might say....."uh....no."

Did you ever find a battery that will power these drives?

I tryed the IPOD with just the camera adapter they sell for dumping photos...it was a nightmare. Took 45 mins to dump 512 megs, then the battery was 75% drained. I slashed that idea and went with a Wolverine Drive for photo copying. Dont waste your time on the IPOD idea, its a waste of time.

Umm... think it might be a little faster using Firewire?

Doesn't the Wolverine drive only transfer like 6-10gb on a battery change?

The wolverine I have (40 GB FlashPac Memory Card Reader & Storage Drive) is for slr's really, you can hook up tons of different media cards to it, it holds 40gig, but they offer many sizes. The wolverine I have transfered like a gig in say a minute maybe? And the battery lasts a long time, atleast in my experiences. I posted this in anohter topic today, but they wrote back today, whenI asked if this same drive could work with the HVX: "The current Wolverines cannot connect directly to a device USB port. It could only connect to a computer's USB port. However, we are creating a new model that should be launched in May of this year that has a USB On The Go (OTG) that could connect to another device directly without a computer as you stated below. If you are an owner of a Wolverine device you are always illegible for an upgrade. Check with us in May if you would like to upgrade." But from what Im reading, the HGX actually wont dump to stand alone drives via USB, only firewire? If so, maybe this is something Pansonic can fix in a firmware update? But trust me, the IPOD is a dead end, I used it on a photo shoot out in the desert this summer, and it was a nightmare, luckly I was able to work around it dumping to my laptop when I had a chance.

That is correct.
Nope. But it doesn't matter much, since the wolverine you're talking about will have USB-OTG, and you can use USB-OTG with the HVX right now. It works.

Support
 

One factor that is important to keep in mind is product support. As indies we're all trying to find cost effective methods for getting the job done however, there is a point where purchase price crosses a line of available support based on the kind of unit you buy.

iPods, Wolverines and such are designed and marketed to the general consumer and therefore are not built for the rigors of professional use, nor do they have the level of product support that a pro product does.

You may find *cost-effective* alternates to things like the Cineporter or Firestore however if you rely on these devices and they fail, not only will the manufacturers probably balk at the fact that you're using the device outside of it's intended purpose, but you'll also be stuck waiting for a replacement at their discretion, meaning you won't get it replaced quickly and at worst, the manufacturer may dictate that it's usage falls outside the warranty and you'll have to buy another.

*Pro* devices like the Cineporter, Firestore and other camera accessories cost more because part of what you're paying for is the ability to get quick turnarounds on hardware replacement and, most often telephonic tech support to help with troubleshooting.

Even if the iPod were a valid capture/dump to device, do you think you'd be able to get an Apple tech on the phone to help during a crisis? Nope.

All valid points, but lets not forgot one other reason people are looking at questionable alternatives like iPods right now.. you can't buy a Firestore or Cineporter yet :(

thread
 

i read this entire thread and im even more confused then when i started. ok the lacie is out of the question.

Whats the deal with the wolverine do you still need a p2 card and is it battery operated? Can't you just transfer directly from the hvx to the hard drive?

reread
 

michaels post, ok it is battery operated but will you need a p2 card? Im hoping to skip this alltogether. Somehow the option of shooting only 8 minute clips doesnt appeal to me

Charles,

A few things you should keep in mind about whether not to use P2:

- You cannot do any over/under crank shooting out Firewire, regardless of which device you're using.
- Although there is an intermediate step to use a USB 2.0 interface to things like the Wolverine (something I have not tested) there are reasons why all the external drives like nNovia and Firestore are using the Firewire connection for capture, one of them being data stability.
- You cannot shoot directly to an external "dumb" drive, you can only transfer clips from P2 to it. Only devices that have controller software built-in such as the Firestore have the ability to act as a direct capture device.
- You do not need any P2 cards to send footage out through Firewire; the data is always flowing from that port.

Not strictly true though -- if you capture the live firewire stream on a Mac, it will store it exactly as it would have been stored on the P2 card if you'd shot in 720/24pN mode. So it will capture and record the overcrank/undercrank, at least on a Mac. It remains to be seen if the Firestore or other devices will have the onboard processing to handle that.

A bit of clarification though -- just remember that when shooting 720pN modes, no data flows through the firewire port (including timecode). This is just a clarification for those who may at some point try it and scratch their heads wondering "why isn't it streaming?" You use 720/24P mode, or 720/30P mode, if you need firewire streaming; the 720/24pN mode and the 720/30pN mode don't offer streaming.

Thanks for clearing that up Barry. I don't think we tested all the FW output modes before we got P2 cards in hand.

iPod 60GB not working now
 

I'm having trouble working the iPod 60GB with HVX and iPod not being able to initialize back to factory default. Without my iPod working, it is very hard to justify HVX with only two 4GB P2 cards.

If I read the one message correctly, one suggests that with the iPod config (using the Bella Catapult?) that you can't overcrank or undercrank? I think perhaps that they might or might not be available, but as for the rest...

I read through Bella's website: "Time Lapse Recording
The completely configurable Time Lapse feature allows the recording of frames of video at specific intervals. For example, recording only a few frames per minute would show a flower blooming, while a longer duration could be used to document building at a construction site.

"Remote Trigger Allows More Freedom
The Catapult offers Remote Trigger Recording, which allows either a remote switch or a motion detector to trigger recording on the Catapult. This can be particularly useful in recording nature and wildlife events, and also for surveillance operations.

"Pre & Post Record
Pre-record and Post-record settings are two of the most exciting features of Catapult. With the Pre-record setting, users can set Catapult to begin recording for a preset amount of time prior to actually hitting the “record” button on the camera. This is feature is great for use with live action, such as sporting events allowing you to capture that winning point every time.

"The Post-record setting is useful when used in conjunction with a remote trigger, such as a motion detector. For example, to record hummingbirds visiting a feeder, the motion sensor would prompt the Catapult to begin recording, and the Post-record feature would allow recording to continue for a pre-determined amount of time."

They're at bella-usa.com. I'd actually be interested in trying something like this. I have a 30gb 3rd gen iPod, the one thing one might consider is swapping units out as one iPod fills or gets tired, then try recharging (as long as you aren't SOL on the AC plug.

What's up with the fear factor? Who says that either of these other hard drive companies won't be crap with support, especially as time goes on? Any piece of equipment will some day crap out on you, I know this. But for me, and I work for a corp that depends on not losing stuff... I would still take a chance on this Bella unit and see what its limits are before shooting live work in the field. If it works, great. If not, sell it "as-is" with full disclosure on eBay and you still have an iPod to fill with music or video.