Sony HVR-Z1 / Panasonic AG-HVX200 Dilemma
 

I'm teetering on the very edge here . . . so close to swapping my Z1 for the HVX200!

I really love the Sony Z1 but I dearly want improved action (especially SlowMo) and colourspace + all the other advantages of the HVX200.

Trouble is, the more reviews I read, the more confused I get.
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First issue is Barrel Distortion . . . I was horrified to read two reviews that mentioned it - but on checking the Z1, I see it's there too (and I hadn't noticed it).

Is it any better or worse than that of the Z1?
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Second is Low Light & Noise . . .

Better or worse than Z1?
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Third is Viewfinder and LCD - generally accepted as lower resolution than the Z1.

Is this a big problem?

What's the HVX200 like to (manually) focus quickly?
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Fourth is Loop Record ?

Is this facility (REALLY) available to me?

In ALL Codecs?
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Last - Downloading from P2s

I really don't want to spend any more than I must . . . is Firewire to Final Cut Pro practical?

If not, what's the cheapest acceptable method?
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Sorry to ask so many questions but it's really confusing when you've read as many reviews as I have. I want to make the right decision - and for me it's a big expenditure.

I know some of the questions can be answered by a trip to my Panasonic dealer - but playing with the camera in his studio won't come close to telling me what it's like out in the field.
For example, the Z1's Expanded Focus is a wonderful tool - but the button's really badly located (for my style of shooting).

Any help here would be very much appreciated.

Andy

Andy,
what kind of projects are shooting mostly?
I bought two Z1 one year ago and ended up trading them for two HVX200 a few month after.
My biggest complaint about the Z1 was the HDV workflow, the fact that it does not play well with other format.
After shooting 1 day with the HVX, I was sold. I found the HVX picture much better than the Z1 (i'm not talking pixel count or definition here, just pure eyeball comparison)
To answer some of your questions, Z1 is better in low light.
Focus (viewfinder vs LCD) seemed to be better on the Z1, but after several month shooting with the HVX I found it very easy to focus using the focus assist and the EVF fuctions when I don't have a monitor.
yes, loop record is available in all codec.
As far as the HVX workflow, well it also comes with pros and cons.
I personally don't believe in the direct to FCP record, because I like the freedom of shooting handheld.
You should look at the firestore option for continuous record.
P2 are expensive and you need at least three 8gig card per cameras to be safe.
At the end of the day, the HVX gives you so many more options in terms of formats, frame rates and looks.
I say go for it.
one last thing, if you ended up buying the HVX, get the HVX Book by Barry Green. it's a must.
e.

We had a Z1U and an A1U. We now have a HVX200 and are delighted.

One of the largest issues is workflow, as Eric indicates as well.

Viewfinder is much better on the Sony as is low light captures.

Other than that, there is no comparison in many of the features we use. Under and overcranking, etc.

But the big change is workflow.

Z1 has more barrel distortion than the HVX.

Z1 is a lot cleaner/less noisy than the HVX. But, it's also a lot slower, so to deliver comparable brightness you'd have to crank up the gain to about 6dB. Even so, it's a bit cleaner than the HVX at 0dB. Noise performance is the one area where the Z1 excels.

Do you want pixels to brag about, or the ability to focus? If you're wanting precise focus, the HVX has it all over the Z1. The Z1's not bad, but the HVX has a precise/repeatable focus ring, and you can use its "focus assist" feature while recording, which the Z1 can't do.

But no doubt, the Z1's LCD is more pleasing to look at.

One thing Panasonic did with the HVX is use a 4:3 LCD, so you can push all the display stuff out of your picture area. Timecode, battery status, audio meters, all that stuff goes in the "black bars" area, leaving your LCD display uncluttered.

HVX has the best manual focusing of any of the low-cost HD cameras. Only thing is the ring does take quite a bit of travel to go from min to max, so you have to really move the ring around if you want to do a significant rack. But because the ring moves so far, it gives you great precision in fine adjustments.



Yes, as long as you're recording to the cards, and you have two cards, and each card has at least 1 minute of free space available.


Completely practical, excepting only that you can't be using the camera as a camera while you use it as a card reader. So if you want to shoot a longform program (say, a two-hour lecture) and you need to record more space than will fit on your cards, there you'll have a problem. What I recommend is getting a PC laptop to offload to, they're dirt cheap and are far and away the lowest-cost offload solution. For $400 you can buy a new laptop that has a card slot on it that'll take the cards, or you could probably pick up a serviceable unit off ebay for under $200. Offload to external firewire FAT32-formatted hard disks, and then you can plug those hard disks straight into your Mac and import the files from there.

HVX has expanded focus too, but the difference is that it doesn't take over the entire display, it uses a window within the display. Because of this, they let you use the feature *while recording*, something that you can't do on the Z1. So if you need to touch up focus while recording, you have that capability, whereas on the Z1 you really can't use the magnification at all while recording.

I rented an HVX200, and found the LCD/viewfinder adequate for focussing with the standard lens - even when we backed up and zoomed in for a short depth of field. Had I used a 35mm adapter, I would have wanted/needed a monitor.

Excellent!

I'll have to look into this when I try the HVX.

I'm a professional (stills) photographer - I want a camera that a) I can afford - and b) I can Focus!

My first Video Camera was a Sony PD170 - what a lovely little thing it was - but manual focus?? Forget it! The Z1's a heap better - but still lamentably poor at focussing compared to still camera lenses. (Why)?

HVX sounds just up my street - I realise it won't be anything like a stills camera to focus - but at least it should be a step in the right direction.

(This with regard to loop recording).
Pure Bliss - much of what I'm shooting for our next project is is dogs behaving spontaneously - can you imagine a better use for loop recording?

Sounds great - so the FAT 32 format won't affect the Media Files?

Thanks everyone for the great input.
I certainly feel a load better about the HVX now.

Can't wait to try one at my dealer's premesis.

Any furthur input is very welcome!

Andy

Take a look at these dogs....
Nice work by Robert Fagan

http://www.motionzonehd.com/product....9&cat=0&page=4

nope. now that you're converted, we need your inputs :)
good luck with the dogs.
e.

Nice indeed . . . I know how difficult it is to get good shots like that!

Andy

I know - I'm just greedy!
Eager to learn more.

Andy

Nice work, 4sure.

Any idea what type of camera was used for that dog clip...or what file format?

Mr. Fagan shoots with the HVX200 and P2 cards.
The dog clip was shot at 60 fps with DVCPRO HD.

. . . and the dog's name?

Andy

I will ask Robert....
Woof!!

OMG. Thank you Very Much for providing the link to that video clip. It's the first sample of the AGHVX200 I finally got to see and I think it's:

FABULOUS! STUNNING! AWESOME! IMPRESSIVE TO THE MAX! HARD TO BELIEVE!

I couldn't specifically find the camera model on the site so thanks for confirming it was the AGHVX200.

BTW, I think the dog's name is: 'Here boy!"

Hello Barry,
I have not done an exact count but about 75% of the clips on our site are shot with the HVX. The shooter/animator count breaks out like this:

40 - HVX

6 - Animators

4 - Timelapse with DSLR

16 - Other camera

I own a z1 and a hvx200. they really are two completely differents beasts. In the TV documentary world the z1 is a real standard. everyone knows how to use and everyone can take its recordings, certainly in DVCam mode.

The HVX does have a hell of a lot more cool features, especially the variable frame rate and the workflow is great if you can afford the cards. But as ageneral workhorse camera that can easily switch from SD to HD the z1 is the better beast for that...

Phil,

Thanks for that - it's good to get a comment from someone who knows both cameras. I get your point about compatibility with the Z1 but in our case, virtually all our work is for ourselves or industrial clients, rather than broadcast.

So I'm on my way to Prestons this morning, intending to swap the Z1 for the HVX. I particularly want the Overcranking, and the HVX workflow, plus the quality of DVCPRO.

Andy

Is archiving still an issue, or are today hdd's safe for most projects.

What i would do on a bigger job is buy 2 hdd's from 2 different manufacturers and then bubble wrap them and put them in a box.

I reckon the hvx is much nicer to shoot with ( from the 15 mintues i played with one ) but im still attached to magnetic tape.

Even david fincher backs up to DLO (?) tape on his viper shoots.

Now I've got one!
 

Now that I finally have the HVX200, I thought it might be worth recording my first impressions of the issues I listed above:

Well, I'm inclined to disagree with Barry here - the Barrel distortion on the HVX looks noticeably worse than the Z1's at full wide - but I get the impression the angle's wider on the HVX so it may not be a fair comment. I was disappointed to see Pincushion though - that shouldn't be noticeable in 16:9.


As expected - it's quite a lot worse. I was expecting the sensitivity to be less than the Z1 but it was worse than I'd thought. Still, for all those who crave a shallow depth of field, this should be an advantage. Not for me though - I generally need all the DOF I can get shooting unpredictable action.


No problem - the Z1's just looks prettier.


Too early to say for certain - but my first impression is that it's going to be far easier to manually focus than the Z1


I can't quite believe it - but it WORKS!


All P2 codecs - Oh Joy!


Not just practical - it's an absolute DREAM (I have FCP 5.1.2).
You can even set the In and Out points before importing - and it's SO easy to set up!
Goodbye Tape, we've moved on!


The HVX's Focus Assist is MILES better than the Z1's - you can use it while shooting, for a start - and the button's in a far better position, near the Focus Ring!

General Impression:
So far, I'm delighted - the advantages, far outweigh the disadvantages - but I'd have paid an extra 1,000 GBP to get rid of the Barrel and Pincusion Distortion.

The workflow advantages are massive.
To be honest, although space on the P2s is restrictive, I believe it will actually improve the finished product. As a professional stills photographer, I know that one of the biggest advantages of using a tripod is that it makes you think more carefully about the shots you take - it REALLY does.

I wouldn't mind betting that the same thing will happen with 8GB P2s - we'll think more before we shoot - and of course, it's a doddle to delete unwanted clips too.

My biggest criticism so far, is the Menu Nav Buttons on the top of the camera - why can't the one which points to the front of the camera go UP the menu - and the rear facing arrow, go DOWN etc etc - seems logical to me. I'm sure I'll get used to it, but it doesn't seem to make sense to press a button on the right to go up, and a button at the back to go right!

Oh - and the Manual!
Why do I have to take a huge tome to bed with me, when I only read the English pages at the front? Sony give a seperate book for each language - far better idea.

Anyone have any comments on my first impressions?

Andy

Spot on mate!!
That sounds like a review from someone
with experience. The Firestore software
update coming out will hopefully
provide support for shooting in
Native modes. I heard that somewhere.....
I may look into one now.

After moving from the GL-2 to the DVX-100A to the HVX-200, and with six weeks experience on the HVX shooting mostly indoor sports events, my comments are : 1) relatively easy to manually focus on the fly during a shot even without the focus assistant, which is difficult to use in a rapidly moving shot, 2) focus assistant is wonderful when a stationary object is available for 3 seconds or more, 3) skin tones and overall appearance of DVCPRO HD 720 60p are stunning and makes DV look like a grainy noisy amateur mode, 4) working with mxf files is very different from tape-based systems, but I'm looking forward to learning these new techniques 5) making many short clips, then editing in the camera is very useful. I then download the edited P2 cards to my computer and can further edit by mixing clips onto new virtual P2 cards, all without using a NLE (although I'm planning to go with Edius Broadcast soon) 6) As for storage, the things I want to save are backed up on two or sometimes three different hard drives It is a new era in high-quality video !

i wish focus assist was available in SD mode. Focus is crucial there too!! I lot of what I shoot is SD still and of course I get more capacity on the p2 card that way.

I also agree the menu buttons are badly position. I keep pressing the wrong ones too!

I hadn't really thought of using the P2 card for SD . . .
I was planning to shoot in 720p, then dub that to tape - that way I'd get the Focus Assist and I'd have the tape as a backup. SD on P2 would be nice though. Now that I've used P2, I'm not so sure I want to go back to tape!


It's like learning to touch-type (again) I'm all thumbs!

Andy

I can understand why they kept the same button orientation as on the DVX - but they should really provide an option in the menus to rotate the dang thing 90 degrees! How hard would that be?

It would be the first operation I would perform on the next HVX I rent.

One more comment on the HVX - the LCD is useless for critical focus, but the viewfinder works well. For my money, they could leave the LCD off the camera and use their resources on an even larger EVF.

I've always like the flip-up eyepiece on my XL2... though you need a monitor if it's on a tall tripod (fully extended) or even just a few feet away from you.