Warning leads to limited access of Classifieds forum
 

If you see this name (Bill Sepaniak) and (FOR SALE), Do not buy
he sold me a busted camera that I had to spend $1200 to fix
WARNING

Where (what site) did you find him?

Probably here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?threadid=39855

And here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39974

Heh, to the man with "For quick answers try our Search!" in his signature ;)

I am ALWAYS leery of new folk selling stuff here. Those who have been around for a while, are usually to be trusted. But, there are always going to be those who find this site, only wanting to sell their stuff. Check those post stats.

Perhaps I should limit access to this forum (only for posting new for sale threads, not limiting responses) to members over a certain post count. Or not... let me know what you think.

Eh, I really think buyer beware is what we all need to follow. Look at the number of posts they have and make your own decisions, some people will be comfortable buying from a few, others will want to buy from only the most well known, and just because they have more posts wont necessarily make them reliable, Buyer beware is the way to go we should all take Rod’s experience into consideration when we make deals.

I'd definately do a limited post count AND date...minimum of a year!

As much as limitations suck, that might not be completely unreasonable. As Josh said, post count isn't the best way to judge, but it works for me, and I use it on ebay as well. Those who have been here forever, are here because of strong conviction to this field. They are likely to be more seasoned, and respectful of their equipment.

People who buy gear because they expect to become instant film makers, lack the experience, and can do great damage to equipment in no time. No offense to new film makers in general, but you get my drift. After screwing up a new camera, they want to recoup some of their loss. So, they seek out others with the same dream, and hope to pass off the damaged goods.

"limit access to [Private Classifieds] forum"
 

Chris, I think that's probably advisable. Unless you're fascinated by the prospect of mediating disputes, you might consider limiting your involvement to that. Of course your---& other moderators'---case-by-case attention will always be a bulwark of this site's success.

Let Ebay be Ebay and DVInfo provide its core service: friendly, responsible dialogue among pros and amateurs.

Bill Speniak registered in January 2003, so I don't think the date you registered in bears any significance to your dedication to DV, and this website in particular.

I think post count will tell you how devoted and interested a user really is.

Both sides of the story?
 

So far, we have only heard from one party. What attempts were made to contact him? What was the outcome? Should he be advised of this thread so as to give him a chance to defend himself? His words, or lack thereof, will give us a more balanced perspective.

As eBay gives both sides a chance to post feedback, so we too should hear from the seller as well.

Agreed.

But let also use this opportunity to see how safe it is to shop using this website? After all it could happen to anyone, paying $4000 for gear that is broken, or just doesn't arrive.

Having said that, I think most people here seem to be pretty honest. This is probably the first complaint in a long time?

Someone will have to e-mail him he will not reply to any e-mail I send

<<<-- Originally posted by Josh Hibbard : Probably here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?threadid=39855

And here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39974

Heh, to the man with "For quick answers try our Search!" in his signature ;) -->>>


Ooohhh....busted... I'm going to go stand in the corner with my face to the wall for five minutes now.


I'd suggest limiting posting a classified to someone with a minimum of say 20+ posts.

EDIT: Rod, I've found 2 phone numbers for this fellow by searching thru Google. Email me privately & you could try them.

WHAT ABOUT A FEEDBACK THREAD?

I've seen this done on other forums, and while it can't safeguard against every situation, it offers an in-house (or in-forum) solution to buyers and sellers. Basically it would all be one thread, stuck to the top, which people post continuously to and individuals posts would look something like this:

Seller/Buyer: Joe Schmoe (this is the other person's name)
Feedback: Positive/Negative/Neutral
Item(s) Bought/Sold: Camera, lights, etc
Comments: Joe sent the item lightening quick and everything was just as he described, I would deal with him again in a second!!

I know this wouldn't necessarily help with this particular situation, but it may get people thinking twice about dealing with new sellers who are not on this list (once it is established and has been around for a while) and additionally might make it a bit easier for established forum members to sell to newbies without having a billion questions asked for "security" reasons.

Also, with this setup, I could search threads for "Joe Schmoe" in the Classifieds section and pretty easily see his feedback in one place.

I dunno....maybe it could help??

It couldn't hurt. Feedback is the way to weed out questionable sellers on ebay. I'm also very cautious of sellers who have only sold once or twice, because those one or two sales could be bogus.

But, in this case, how many people are going to be selling enough to make it worth while? Most folks are selling their old equipment after updating, or going into another field. Or when their Granddaughter hurts them too bad to use the heavier equipment... Sorry Don, I do hope you're feeling better ;)

In Don's case, he is know pretty well around here. That is because of his posts, and the equipment is likely well cared for. I have bought from other members, based on the fact I know them... even if it is only through these forum posts. I would not bother to question any of the major players. Their posts say volumes about them.

I recommend against creating anything as involved as a dedicated feedback thread or forum at this site. The very informality of the "Classifieds" forum is, I think, what limits its scope & its potential encroachment on what I perceive to be our main purpose here: learning. The profit I reap from the dialogue here is not directly about lining my wallet.

Sales which evolve (e.g., to include other items than were advertised, or which fall into dispute &c) beyond the limited scope of the "Classifieds" forum are best left to the realm of private emails or other offsite contact. Hence the informal custom I've seen here of "going once, twice, thrice" before items are sent away to Ebay or some other, more-commercial venue.

It's Chris's call, of course (after, I assume, some confab with his crew of wranglers). But inter-member commerce doesn't seem to me to be the main purpose of this site; there are plenty other places for that.

I had been thinking about making this same suggestion to Chris after seeing a recent influx of new boots posting classified ads. Not that they are bad people, but I just want to get a warm, fuzzy about the forum members I do business with here. No problems so far, but it only takes one bad transaction to ruin it.

Perhaps it should be limited to minimum of 1yr membership and 200 total posts. That might seem harsh to some, but it's just what I was thinking would be my personal 'trustworthy' setpoint. As for feedback, if it could be added to the user profile in some way, I would be for it. I don't want to see the ebay system, it's too much administrative overhead. Trust is paramount to keeping this site what it is.

These are just my thoughts.

-gb-

I don't think a severe limitation is needed. 200 posts??? a Year?? Come on, guys, we have good people that have been around that don't even have 100 posts, and I thank them for not cluttering up the board. If you even made it a minimal requirement that someone have 5 posts and 30 days, it would get rid of the real abusive postings from hit-and-run scammers. Or maybe limit it to one posting every 30 days. Or just leave it as is, I can always tell by the Classifieds that the board is working. :)

Heh, yeah I agree 200 is a bit excessive; to put it in context, of the current ten latest for sale postings, two would be allowed. It would stifle the classifieds to the point of uselessness, the way it stands its one of the first forums I check after Wedding and Event videography.

not letting "new boots" post sounds reasonable, but other than that this sounds like airport security post 9/11 way too much inconvenience for the potential of a little added security.

Thanks for the feedback John and Josh. John, you are right about having good people here that don't come close to the numbers I suggested. We were ALL new boots at one time. Yeah, on second though, I think we should leave it as is. No restrictions. Let the buyer beware. If a problem arises, you can almost bet it won't be one of the forum regulars because they are going to want to still be welcome here.

That's why I never suggested limits to Chris in the first place. But, after someone else brought it up in this thread, I just was reflecting on some of my gut reactions to some of the classified postings I have seen lately.

Let's all get back to buying and selling and let this thread die.

-gb-

I think any kind of an eBay type rating system would be a big pain in the butt to implement. You already know if somebody shows up with 13 posts and wants to sell a DVX100 with a Chrosziel matte box for $2,500 and doesn't even know how to spell it, there's something fishy going on. I say it leave it like it is.

I'm with Greg & Marco.

bad gear from regular user
 

Just as any FYI... almost everyone on this site is terrific! I found wonderful info and much help during the original search process and when I had to sell due to our move and my dad being very ill.

However I purchased a Firestore from someone on this forum that was less than the 'excellent' FS as advertised. It had been 'customized' in an undesirable way. I had to buy another battery to make it work and buy parts that were broken to make it complete. Sadly this person thought he was in the right and acted like I was crazy. I gave up, sold the thing and chucked it up to "the tuition of life".

Some people could use a good lesson in honor. My 2 cents... overall though you are safe with folks from this forum with higher numbers of posts. Also look at the content and their tone. That will give you some guidance. Good luck & God Bless! Roze

when I bought this cam, I knew nothen of how it works I asked him about the focus he told me there was a macro button that you can turn on and off ... and in my reserch I find there is no macro button, and then I try to find out where and when he bought it only to read the warrnty that says 90 days from the org buy.... he never said that it could not be used but was selling it as a bonus if it breaks you can get it fixed
I still don't know where he bought it, or when.
thats when he stoped replying to my e-mails
and what made me feel so stupid I went out of my way to get him the cash for it


I will never buy used again

yeah, I usually don't buy used off the internet... just makes me nervous... unless I "know" the person from being a regular on a site. However, that said, I have had great succes selling MY used stuff on this and other sites... have not had any problems from buyers... I probably just jinxed myself. I like the openness of these classifieds and would hate to see restrictions, but I understand that something might be necessary... It would absolutley be horrible to pay $1,200 for a camera and it's broken... unless it was a DVCPRO Varicam or something... then suddenly $1,200 doesn't sound so bad :)

How About Listing References?
 

I have sold a few items on here to various DV Infoers and they seemed satisfied. Gosh, I hope if I ever had a disatisfied buyer he/she would tell me immediately. I would rather eat the cost of my stuff then lose the respect of my DV Info peers. How about posting references if you have them?

I would have to disagree with setting any limits. The fellow being acused here was registered a long time ago. Even having a high number of posts doesnt really mean anything. Just need to be very cautious. ALWAYS speak on the phone first. One conversation can tell you alot. Alot of common sense and caution can go along way.

I had a young man on EBay try to beat me out of $1,700.00. When I sent him the phone number and address of his father, Sheriff, and District Attorney, he not only refunded my money, he sent an extra $250.00 for my inconvenience. I was lucky in that I have some experience as a process server and was able to track him down.

Most aren't that lucky. And some, if they do find the person, find out it would cost too much to try to recover it. Since then, any transaction of say over $200.00, I use escrow.com. They will hold the money until you receive the item and inspect it. If you need to return it, you tell them it is not acceptable, and they will return your money when the seller gets his item back. You can use the UPS tracking number as proof of where the item is. It costs a little but you can split the cost between you and it is better to lose a few dollars than a few thousand.

Dan

<<<-- Originally posted by Sam Forbes : I would have to disagree with setting any limits. The fellow being acused here was registered a long time ago. Even having a high number of posts doesnt really mean anything. Just need to be very cautious. ALWAYS speak on the phone first. One conversation can tell you alot. Alot of common sense and caution can go along way. -->>>

Sam,

True about common sense and using the phone. But Sam, a high post count gives one the ability to read someone's writing style and how they conduct themselves in the other forums which to me speaks volumes about their character. Especially if they are running their own production companies. I know that I will take good care of my stuff to maximize my use of it and to offer someone else the opportunity to get a good deal should I decide to sell.

To Rod Finch: If you have not done so already, please send a private mail to Chris Hurd detailing the facts of this transaction. This might help clear up some confusion and allow for a fact based resolution. I think all of us hope that one of the 'regulars' among us hasn't defrauded a fellow DV-INFO'er.

-gb-

I have been following this thread with great interest especially since I have an item currently for sale in the classifieds.

Having bought several nice items of gear in these classifieds while building up an XL package I have found the sellers to be completely professional and honest, the gear in good shape, and the prices fairly reasonable.

Most of the time I do carefully consider the number of posts and length of membership in determining the credibility of the seller. Plus an email dialogue about the gear usually tells me if the person knows what they are selling and has experience with the goods. But the activity of the seller and the time he has spent on this site tells me a lot about his commitment to the profession. The good reputation of an experienced forum member is at stake when they sell gear on the site. So I find the process has worked out well for me.

I have had to turn down goods that seemed a bit to good to be true from newbies selling gear here. So buyer beware!

I wanted to know if anyone has had any bad experinces from buyers when selling gear. I was contacted off-list by a non-member in another country about some gear listed here. Is there a risk involved as a seller that anyone knows of?

Thanks for a great thread.

I wanted to buy a used XL1S around August last year, as I didn't really had the budget to buy one new. And I hadn't really bought things via the internet, so I was cautious, but at the time I was at these boards looking somewhat around for maybe a couple of months (I didn't even know the Private Classifieds boards existed). Then I saw an XL1S PAL on Ebay, and I thought I recognised the guys name from these boards. He had lots of posts here and is pretty well known for some, Dennis Hingsberg, so I thought: I trust those guys from DVinfo.

And the whole sell was great, he always reacted very friendly on my mails and questions, wrapped the thing perfectly up, had it quckly,...
So for me that was a great experience, and I'm a little bit sad that some people aren't as good as others, but I have to admit: if I see someone selling something in the Private Classifieds boards, and he has 2 posts... I'm suspicious.

I don't think the moderators and Chris Hurd should always change something about the boards because a couple of the thousand members aren't good.
I think you have to know buying something via internet is ALWAYS a little bit dangerous, or always has a risk, but if you see it's from someone with over 100 or 200 posts, I think you can be pretty sure about it.

Really love these boards.

BTW: Has the person that sold the broken thing, already replied? Maybe he has a reason? I think if someone hasn't got a good reason, maybe you could forbid them to sell anything again here? But actually, I don't like that idea myself, because it's contradictory with my first main idea, that the moderators from these boards shouldn't always do special things for one some that didn't do it right. But maybe, maybe, you could have this rule: if there is a problem, you can ask the seller about explanation. If he doesn't respond... that means something, he isn't really friendly, as almost every other user here on the board. And if he responds but doesn't has a good reason, maybe (maybe!) you could forbid him to sell anything here again.
And If he DOES got a good reason, well, I don't think that would need further explanation. The thing is, it's always hard to prove such stuff.

Hmm, I don't really care now, because I already have many posts so I think some could agree I'm pretty reliable, and on the other hand: I won't sell anything quickly I think, but maybe I want to buy some stuff here ver. All I want to say is: let the people who are very busy with the Private Classifieds boards, and buy and/or sell a lot lot more than me, decide, because it's about them offcourse. In agreement with the moderators/Chris Hurd.

Well, I think I spoke to much, need sleep now;-).

<<<-- Originally posted by Mathieu Ghekiere :

BTW: Has the person that sold the broken thing, already replied? Maybe he has a reason? I think if someone hasn't got a good reason, maybe you could forbid them to sell anything again here? But actually, I don't like that idea myself, because it's contradictory with my first main idea, that the moderators from these boards shouldn't always do special things for one some that didn't do it right. But maybe, maybe, you could have this rule: if there is a problem, you can ask the seller about explanation. If he doesn't respond... that means something, he isn't really friendly, as almost every other user here on the board. And if he responds but doesn't has a good reason, maybe (maybe!) you could forbid him to sell anything here again.
And If he DOES got a good reason, well, I don't think that would need further explanation. The thing is, it's always hard to prove such stuff.

. -->>>

That's why I suggested to Rod that he private mail Chris H. since Chris is listed as the wrangler for this forum. I would hope the seller would do the same. I initially felt we should have limits, but others responded and I changed my thoughts to just leave it as is. This is not, and should not, ever become a major problem on this site. There are far too many good people here as you pointed out. However, if we find that someone has committed a serious breach of membership trust in their selling/buying activity, I would vote for immediate ban of that member.

-gb-

Ditto that.
 

"Ostracism" may be hard to spell, but everybody knows how it feels.

Well John,

Here in Texas, when someone does this they usually just utter those three little words....."get a rope". :-)

No flames please, the above comment was made in reference to the ways of the 'old west'. They were called lynch mobs. Since this board is based in Texas and we are 'wranglers' and not 'moderators', I felt inclined to make a historical connection. Must be the lack of sleep.

-gb-

My 2 cents...
 

I felt compelled to add my comments.
I have found this forum to be invaluable and have been involved with several sales and purchases, with good results. I had one item that failed when I got it and had no problem with the seller and would purchase from him again. My message count is not high and indeed when some transactions took place was actually quite low. If we had a minimun count before being allowed to trade, none of these transactions would have gone through, to the detriment of all concerned. My vote is not to put a limit by means of"message counts". Having said that, I agree that 'counts" are a consideration in looking at a sale/purchase. The content is also a factor. In short you use all the available tools to make a decision.

I am involved in several other forums and they too have had some problems with"undesirables". There are rotten apples anywhere. The freer this forum the better, but feedback is the clue to safety.

One forum, Luminous Landscape, does not have a buy/sell but suffered from some excessive comments. The owner/moderator clamped down by making it only open to registered members. You could not enter without a password, which meant you had to submit your name, e-mail address etc.

Another forum, Fredmiranda (digital photography) , has an informal feedback thread where people can comment on the quality of their transaction.

Hopefully we do not need to have a more controlled system but if it is so deemed the following are my suggestions:

1 no e-bay etc. listings. I know this the current policy but it is not always followed.
2 Close the forum except to registered members.
3 Modification of above (if possible). Close certain aspects of the forum, say "Buy/Sell" to registered people only, and make the rest "read only"
4 All registerants to submit a brief resume with complete address etc.
5 All registered users to use there real name and not a "pen name".


Yes, still people will be able to "cheat" the system but maybe not as easily.

Mostly we all need to be aware of how we deal and treat each other with respect, which on this forum is certainly the majority cases.

Martin

All of this is very subjective. I think all of us should be old enough to understand what we are getting into. I have very few posts, and the person from whom I just bought an awesome camera package deal also has very few posts and it worked out better than expected!!!
It's all about contact and interacting then doing your homework. If their were restrictions then I would not of met another great film maker and have had a positive experience.
You also have to take into mind that this stuff happens anywhere even right before your eyes on the street.
Like the old adage if it's to good to be true.

Martin: we already do not allow eBay listings for classifieds in this forum.

As you know this forum also features real names, so that takes
care of the last point on your list as well.

Other options for this forum are being discussed behind the
scenes as well. At this point in time no decisions have been
set in stone on any changes to this classifieds forum.