Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Also, be aware of "eccentric" framing, it can become distracting and can imply you're worried that the audience may become bored. What works with a rock singer may not work with a monologue, especially if they're static.

Note that all this is nothing to do with film festivals having problems with a type of short film, since they accept all kinds of films.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh okay thanks. I feel that doubling on the removal of the glasses works when someone is being reflective, but that's just my opinion. I watched it again and it felt okay to me.

When you say eccentric framing, what counts as eccentric framing?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Given that you did a fast move in and cut hard on the move to the CU, with an action repeat on the cut, all that sounds pretty unreflective, more that he's going to take extreme action.

There are a number of shots against the black background, the extreme low angle looking up,didn't seem to match the nature of the underlying message. The shot with very little head room with his hands on a black surface, if it was an altar you could've got away with it, but in this case the framing became distracting.

The wobbly cam shots in the cemetery, didn't really fit in if he was making a powerful reflective statement, more that he's suffering from psychological distress.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Okay thanks, this is all very good input. Is there any filmmaking books that goes deep into these things? The ones I read never mention anything, like you should only cut on a repeat of the cut, if a character is going to take action, or that you should only have a shot with little head room and black hands on a surface if it it's on an altar, or things like that.

Are there any filmmaking books that go into exact details like that more?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

You should read editing books, although many of these editing technique are given verbally, so you should listen and/or read interviews with editors. Repeating action on the cut by frames is used to heighten action, so can occur in fight scenes etc.

Filmmaking books can only go so far, you need to sense these things yourself.

Have a look at the complete opposite to your film. a talk made without auto cues and lasting 1/2 hour. These appeared on both the commercial ITV and the BBC in the UK, so had viewing figures. .

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Okay thanks but what i don't understand is why can't a repeat be used in heightening reflection as well? Why is it a rule that it can only be used in action? Is it that necessary to follow such a tradition?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

It's because the effect is jarring, quite the opposite of reflection, which is usually a contemplative moment, let the actor do the work, you're over cutting.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

This all comes down to C O N T E X T. Just cause it worked in Bonnie & Clyde doesnt mean it will work in your film. How is your film different than B&C? Pretty much every way possible, except that they are both movies.

Conversations with walter murch (or whatever its called, by the English Patient author) is a book with insight into why film editors to what they do, mixed in with some ass kissing and repeatedly having to hear how awesome the English Patient is.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh ok thanks I've seen some videos of waltter Murch talk about editing but haven't read that one.

Is the cut only jarring because he repeats a move though or would it still be jarring even if i don't cut on a repeat?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

What do you think, Ryan. It's pointless us explaining in words, if you cannot see any of this for yourself?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

You're the editor, you have to work these things out yourself. It's so easy to compare cut timings on a NLE.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Well in my own opinion i can see that the speed of the camera movent should match in both shots. But i think its fine to cut where it is but that is just how i see it (shrug).

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

I'll try one more time. You are over thinking it and trying to use your preset list of rules. What you need to do is consider how it works. I know I would never have joined those two shots like that, because I personally don't see it as a having a point? What was wrong with the first clip that needed the edit to a virtually identical, but slightly different one. It's like those youtube videos people do now where they just have a fixed presenter and camera position and do horrible jump cuts at each edit, making the edit obvious, when to me, the viewer should not notice the edits at all, and they should flow.

I think I have to retire from this conversation, because I've failed totally explain myself in a way you can understand.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

If we're talking about the same cut, it just doesn't work in any way (even as a jump cut), especially given the context.

Remember what's in your mind's eye mightn't be the same as that of the audience.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

[quote=Paul R Johnson;1953215]I'll try one more time. You are over thinking it and trying to use your preset list of rules. What you need to do is consider how it works. I know I would never have joined those two shots like that, because I personally don't see it as a having a point? What was wrong with the first clip that needed the edit to a virtually identical, but slightly different one. It's like those youtube videos people do now where they just have a fixed presenter and camera position and do horrible jump cuts at each edit, making the edit obvious, when to me, the viewer should not notice the edits at all, and they should flow.

Well since l thought it worked, how does a director tell that his mind's eye will be different from the audiences? How do you anticipate the audiences' minds eye?

But I didn't think I was over analyzing it because three things about the shower pointed out to me that I didn't see you so I thought maybe if anything I was under analyzing it.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Ryan can I ask how long youve been at the whole filmmaking thing? Including school. I ask because some of this ability to tell what works and what doesnt only comes with time and experience. A year or two out of school, you may just not have it yet. It took me a few years before I understood even the basics of lighting, even longer before the psychology of composition/focal length/lens choice made sense to me. Editing is even now still tricky.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

I've been at it since 2011. I've made a few projects of my own so far, and I've been out of school for a few years. I've mostly been helping people on their projects to get experience, but maybe I should concentrate more on my own.

I was told by others, that I would do better if I change my approach and I need better scripts to work with as well as better actors and a better DP. I don't know if that's true, but maybe I need those things, to improve as well?

But there are times when I feel I want to convey something, but the way I do it, the audience does not understand. For example it was pointed out on here before, why did I choose a low angle for the near the opening. The reason why is, because the subject is talking about governments abusing their power, and the low angle represents power, from what he is talking about. So that is why I went for the low angle. But people on here, did not understand that I was going for that in the angle, and neither did some others who asked. So I feel I have a mind's eye and everything has a reason, but others are not seeing the emotions of the shots that I feel for some reason,

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Having the best possible scripts is always the best starting point.

I knew the power reference, but the downside being you weren't making at direct emotional connection with the audience. This is something that the 1930's dictators were extremely good at, Hitler used to keep his audience in suspense by letting them wait before opening his speech

Compare with this and imagine your dialogue and the references to power and how you have a direct connection with the audience drawing them in.


Even in this old, simple talk by a history don does the same in a low key fashion, although the shot changes in the opposite direction and not as tight. Lew Grade, deputy managing director of ATV at the time was all show business and knew when he was onto a good thing.


Slightly different approach in "Patton"

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh okay thanks. Was I not able to make the connection with the audience because of the script, or was it something else?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

What do you think? You're the director.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Perhaps he doesnt talk about politics long enough for the shot to register...

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Even within a short film there is often a 3 act type structure Act I - Setup: Exposition, Inciting Incident, Plot Point One. Act II - Confrontation: Rising Action, Midpoint, Plot Point Two. Act III - Resolution. Although, Act 2 won't be as long in a short, but it's surprisingly useful for breaking things down.

Interestingly, a good lecture or school lesson can follow the same structure.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

In his biography "Skywalking," George Lucas talked about film school exercises where they would be given 16mm short ends of, say, thirty feet (barely one minute of film at 24fps) and they had to shoot a story with a beginning, a middle and an end.

Of course these days, a YouTube ad can be 15 seconds long and tell some kind of story. Point being, there's a logical structure no matter how long or short the run time.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh okay, we were given exercises like that as well.

Well, I talked to another filmmaker I met about it, and showed him the movie. He says the reason why some of the cuts are jarring, is that I don't hold them long enough, or I cut too soon or too slowly.

I was cutting what I felt were the best parts, the highlights, to create the best performance, or the best moments. Perhaps creating the best performance from the best sections is not first priority though, and first priority, should be cutting for emotional beats, even if it means missing small performance sections?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

A lot of this comes down to experience and/or understanding. For some this comes as second nature for others they have to learn the hard way through trial and error. The most important take away is at the planning stage you should be determining the structure, mood and purpose. Then you go about filming in a way to that supports that plan. If you try to incorporate movies you like or randomly applying rules out of context your head will become filled with a confused jumble of competing ideas that lead to an incoherent movie.
Movie making is like building a house, there is a lot of work involved, and if the blueprint is not right to begin with, all the hard work and time will be spent in vain.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

There's a rhythm and a pacing to cutting. Movies breathe. Each one is a little bit different... there is no "right" or "wrong," just what's best for that story. Pick some movie you like to watch, and mute the sound. Watch it without any audio at all. Then you'll begin to notice the pace of the cuts within each scene.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Ah, maybe Chris got it. You got wrapped up in editing the words, so the cuts came at radio edit points, not visual points. Your source material had the best takes in audio pretence mode, leaving you with a problem. You got forced into the edits needing to be in a particular place to make the audio work. Possibly you have b-roll (exactly the purpose of this term) that can cover these jarring edits? I'm thinking shots of the graves, more shots of him standing in silence, the melancholy stuff?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh I was talking about the subject's performance though in how I edited it. What does audio have to do with that? I meant his performance both audio and visually. I have more shots of B roll I can use, I just felt it wasn't necessary to use it in those cuts, since those cuts had a purpose and I actually wanted to show his performance though. But are the cuts a problem cause they come at wrong times, even if his performance is best in those cuts?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Editing is about everything, because everything is conveying information. Even the blink of an eye is important.

You use highlights in a commercial or a trailer, but you need more in the movie, even the silences can be important and are part of a performance, just watch a Clint Eastwood film..

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh okay well since it was only a five minute short film with a lot of narration I didn't think you would apply the same way a feature film would was silences. I thought this would be more like a commercial. But I could do more silent moments for the next project for sure that isn't a feature. Thanks, that helps!

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Pacing is essential in all films, regardless of length.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

oh okay, I didn't think this one needed more pauses in it's pacing, but I can keep that in mind. Perhaps I was too concerned about keeping it under 10 minutes as well

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Listen to the Patton speech, there are pauses in it. If you don't have pauses and pace changes, you risk the speech becoming a rant,

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh okay, I've saw the speech. Mine has pauses as well, but perhaps needs more in the shots that were mentioned, or does mine not have near enough?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Perhaps you should do those acting classes, so that you get a feel for these things. Even theatre centred classes would help with working with actors on films.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Oh okay, I've already taken acting classes, for that purpose. They teach me how to act myself, but not how to pull performances out of others though. I could try using the same advice the teacher used though when advising my actors, if that would help.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

What do you think?

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Perhaps. I could try it and see.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Directors to not advise - they guide, cajole, persuade and bribe actors. It's essential they can read individuals preferred style of direction. You cannot learn to direct on a course. You need lots of mistakes to progress - but above all, you need to have the right personality to do it well. Friendly, bombastic - it matters not if it works. The minute you lose them, you've gone.

Re: Would festivals have a problem with this type of short film?
 

Okay thanks. So far the directing has been different every time, for each person. I guess I can just hope for the best. But next time I am definitely doing more rehearsals for sure.