How do you white balance dance recitals / stage shows?

Christopher Young · October 22nd, 2022, 02:42 AM

QUOTE:
"Trouble is Chris, that the producers want the look the show really had."

Well, you just summed up the dilemma in one sentence.

You just physically cannot do that because there is no video medium container or screen that can handle the range of lighting used on 99% of shows, or that experienced on a bright day outside for that matter.

Whether it's the local kids school drama show, or one of the numerous dance school/college events that seem to be everywhere. If the video medium you are delivering on is one of the following, USB (MP4), DVD or BD (Bar HDR BD) they are all required to meet Rec 709 specs. Otherwise they will display distorted luminance and chroma levels on any of the above display mediums. Unless you are delivering on a medium unknown to me.

I'm always keen to learn more, so I would love to know how you aim to reproduce the live show lighting saturations and brightness range which can be around 15 stops with a brightness range between 1000 and 10,000 nits with a 709 technology that is around 6 stops with a brightness range of a little over 100 nits??

Ron Evans · October 22nd, 2022, 06:37 AM

Well you can record the show with modern cameras shooting RAW or Log to at least twice rec709 even with consumer gear. Most cameras can manage 12 stops. Problem is it cannot then be shown on a rec709 TV in full range without overload. There are however a lot of HDR TV's that can approach 1000nits with 10bit displays for colour range that can give the WOW that a rec709 display cannot do. Even my Sony HDR TV that was not that expensive comes close displaying HDR PQ files from USB drive. I edit in Resolve with Vlog files and produce both rec709 and PQ outputs and there is a big difference played on the same TV. There is no way to get the punch of a live performance for lighting or sound though.

Christopher Young · October 22nd, 2022, 10:04 AM

Agreed. A massive improvement shooting HDR and clients who have HDR monitors will benefit from that, but sadly most of my clients are still looking at 709 TVs at home. Even 4K 709 TVs because not all 4K TVs are HDR by any means. Which means outputting two versions, SDR and HDR to get the maximum result from the two color spaces, which from Resolve is not a problem. Especially if you set your Project Settings to color managed and select your Transform from there. Or alternatively, setting a color transform via a node on your final pass to master.

Chris Young

Ron Evans · October 22nd, 2022, 11:47 AM

Yes I use Colour Management project settings and export twice. But edit on my rec709 gamma 2.4 watching the scopes. One export for DVD,Bluray USB then the HDR version that is the archive now.

Paul R Johnson · October 22nd, 2022, 02:52 PM

The video the clip I used looks damn close, or at least, the closest I've managed. Nobody really worries about the technical aspects and any conformality to a standard - just that the colours look right. I'm not explaining this very well I fear. What the video shot does is records the colours as faithfully as possible, in the full range of brightness levels - so from the scary scene in the greenish woodland scene, to the summer day outdoors (which of course still must have pink in it) - whatever colour the audience see needs to be recorded.

What is completely unacceptable is changing the colours. Especially the differences between pink, magenta and purples. In addition, it's common to dial in some of the UV kind of blue rather than normal blue to make some of the colours in the costumes pop a bit. I am very happy with the colour rendition in the clip I used as an example, because it really did look very similar to that. With a change of Lighting Designer, it's common for the new one to want to see what a previous incarnation looked like. We really do have directors and producers who demand more pink. Especially with feather costumes that are died a scarlet or magenta hue.

I'm lost in the brightness discussions. I'm not really seeing problems here - in fact, the lack of range can be an advantage. One aspect of these kind of shows is deliberately blinding the audiences to prevent them seeing the works - they don't see the secret mecanical tricks, or even people dressed in all black because their eyes in real life cannot cope with the contrast range. The video cameras can't record detail in the low lights which is an advantage sometimes. Here are a few images with very awkward colour and brightness/contrast.

https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show1.png
https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show2.png
https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show3.png
https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show4.png

October 22nd, 2022, 02:42 AM	#61
Christopher Young Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,527	Re: How do you white balance dance recitals / stage shows? QUOTE: "Trouble is Chris, that the producers want the look the show really had." Well, you just summed up the dilemma in one sentence. You just physically cannot do that because there is no video medium container or screen that can handle the range of lighting used on 99% of shows, or that experienced on a bright day outside for that matter. Whether it's the local kids school drama show, or one of the numerous dance school/college events that seem to be everywhere. If the video medium you are delivering on is one of the following, USB (MP4), DVD or BD (Bar HDR BD) they are all required to meet Rec 709 specs. Otherwise they will display distorted luminance and chroma levels on any of the above display mediums. Unless you are delivering on a medium unknown to me. I'm always keen to learn more, so I would love to know how you aim to reproduce the live show lighting saturations and brightness range which can be around 15 stops with a brightness range between 1000 and 10,000 nits with a 709 technology that is around 6 stops with a brightness range of a little over 100 nits?? Attached Thumbnails

October 22nd, 2022, 06:37 AM	#62
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: How do you white balance dance recitals / stage shows? Well you can record the show with modern cameras shooting RAW or Log to at least twice rec709 even with consumer gear. Most cameras can manage 12 stops. Problem is it cannot then be shown on a rec709 TV in full range without overload. There are however a lot of HDR TV's that can approach 1000nits with 10bit displays for colour range that can give the WOW that a rec709 display cannot do. Even my Sony HDR TV that was not that expensive comes close displaying HDR PQ files from USB drive. I edit in Resolve with Vlog files and produce both rec709 and PQ outputs and there is a big difference played on the same TV. There is no way to get the punch of a live performance for lighting or sound though.

October 22nd, 2022, 10:04 AM	#63
Christopher Young Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,527	Re: How do you white balance dance recitals / stage shows? Agreed. A massive improvement shooting HDR and clients who have HDR monitors will benefit from that, but sadly most of my clients are still looking at 709 TVs at home. Even 4K 709 TVs because not all 4K TVs are HDR by any means. Which means outputting two versions, SDR and HDR to get the maximum result from the two color spaces, which from Resolve is not a problem. Especially if you set your Project Settings to color managed and select your Transform from there. Or alternatively, setting a color transform via a node on your final pass to master. Chris Young

October 22nd, 2022, 11:47 AM	#64
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: How do you white balance dance recitals / stage shows? Yes I use Colour Management project settings and export twice. But edit on my rec709 gamma 2.4 watching the scopes. One export for DVD,Bluray USB then the HDR version that is the archive now.

October 22nd, 2022, 02:52 PM	#65
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: How do you white balance dance recitals / stage shows? The video the clip I used looks damn close, or at least, the closest I've managed. Nobody really worries about the technical aspects and any conformality to a standard - just that the colours look right. I'm not explaining this very well I fear. What the video shot does is records the colours as faithfully as possible, in the full range of brightness levels - so from the scary scene in the greenish woodland scene, to the summer day outdoors (which of course still must have pink in it) - whatever colour the audience see needs to be recorded. What is completely unacceptable is changing the colours. Especially the differences between pink, magenta and purples. In addition, it's common to dial in some of the UV kind of blue rather than normal blue to make some of the colours in the costumes pop a bit. I am very happy with the colour rendition in the clip I used as an example, because it really did look very similar to that. With a change of Lighting Designer, it's common for the new one to want to see what a previous incarnation looked like. We really do have directors and producers who demand more pink. Especially with feather costumes that are died a scarlet or magenta hue. I'm lost in the brightness discussions. I'm not really seeing problems here - in fact, the lack of range can be an advantage. One aspect of these kind of shows is deliberately blinding the audiences to prevent them seeing the works - they don't see the secret mecanical tricks, or even people dressed in all black because their eyes in real life cannot cope with the contrast range. The video cameras can't record detail in the low lights which is an advantage sometimes. Here are a few images with very awkward colour and brightness/contrast. https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show1.png https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show2.png https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show3.png https://www.eastanglianradio.com/show4.png Last edited by Paul R Johnson; October 22nd, 2022 at 03:23 PM.