Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? at DVinfo.net

Ryan Elder · October 15th, 2019, 05:47 PM

I've been using my Fostex FR2-LE recorder for years now, but I recently rented a Zoom F8 cause of the multichannel feature.

I notice that with the F8, you only have to turn the level dial up about half way, maybe a little more, and that's enough to get a good level for normal voice dialogue. But with the FR2-LE, you have turn the level dial almost all the way up just to get a good level for dialogue, in comparison.

So that makes me wonder, maybe the FR2-LE just has low pre-amp power in comparison to the F8. Does anyone know?

Rick Reineke · October 16th, 2019, 09:42 AM

I do not have the specs for FR2. Many preamps only have a max available input gain of around +50 dB. By comparison, Zoom states the F8's available input gain as +75 dB. Take a look at the FR2 mic input specs and that should explain it..

Ryan Elder · October 16th, 2019, 06:38 PM

Oh okay, well I thought that zoom you only have to turn up about two thirds as high, so that explains it I guess. Is it worth getting the Zoom F8 though, to record more quiet sounds?

Paul R Johnson · October 17th, 2019, 01:33 AM

What happens when you turn the gain up? the position of the knob is irrelevant if it does what you want. Does it have enough gain to capture quieter sounds, or use lower output mics without the noise floor being a problem? Preamps with too much gain can mean that when presented with loud sound you need to work right near the bottom - just as much a problem, meaning you need mic pads engaged. Is the FRE-2 noisy? I don't have one, but not seen any complaints about it's noise performance. Are you getting hiss on your distant mic work?

Ryan Elder · October 17th, 2019, 07:02 AM

No I'm not getting hiss but I was told that turning the knob up all the way almost, is not good for the mic, if that's true.

Rick Reineke · October 17th, 2019, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Is it worth getting the Zoom F8 though, to record more quiet sounds?

I have never used an FR2, but most folks seem to like it. A pre-owned Sound Devices mixer or preamp front-end would help if the FR2 lacks the gain or is noisy when recording low SPL sound sources.

There is also the Zoom F4 and the new 32 bit F6 if you do not need a lot of ISO tracks. Then there's the Sound Devices MixPre recorders. The 2cd generation of which was just released.

Ryan Elder · October 17th, 2019, 06:56 PM

Oh okay. Well it's just if you want to record things like a whisper, that can be hard to pick up, if you are trying to keep the mic out of frame, so I thought that maybe something with a higer db level, like the F8 might be better for things like that, if it would be.

However, it has eight pre-amp ports if I remember correct, and that is why it's a lot more money, as I don't think I would ever need that many. So maybe something with just as good of pre-amps, but only a couple of ports, would be better.

Pete Cofrancesco · October 17th, 2019, 07:26 PM

That’s more of a question about the best way to record quiet dialogue. If the dialogue is too quiet and mic is too far away, raising the mixer gain really high will also increase the background and mic noise where it will stick out and not sound good.

Ryan Elder · October 17th, 2019, 08:01 PM

Oh okay, so if the F8 has an extra 25 db, it can still bring up noise at that high then?

Seth Bloombaum · October 18th, 2019, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

...However, it has eight pre-amp ports if I remember correct, and that is why it's a lot more money, as I don't think I would ever need that many. So maybe something with just as good of pre-amps, but only a couple of ports, would be better.

The Zoom f4 has 4 preamps identical to the f8. It’s a great little recorder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, so if the F8 has an extra 25 db, it can still bring up noise at that high then?

2 kinds of noise:
Self noise in the electronics.
Ambient/acoustic noise in the recording environment.

Better recorders will reduce or effectively eliminate self noise.

The best help for noisy environments is close micing. Better mics help a little, but, the best mic in the wrong place is much worse than a decent mic in the right spot. Which recorder you’re using makes little difference in noisy environments. That 25db extra comes in handy for low output mics on quiet sources.

Brian Drysdale · October 18th, 2019, 01:59 AM

I don't know the recorder, but I assume you can set the gain for various mics and if you've got the knob up full it usually means your using the wrong settings. I would dig into the manual to find out the options, there appears to be possible menu settings on P72 of the manual.

Ryan Elder · October 18th, 2019, 07:12 AM

Oh well the manual just says to turn up the levels so they are high enough, it doesn't list any catches as to why you have to turn it up almost all the way, to get it high enough though.

Brian Drysdale · October 18th, 2019, 07:40 AM

I suspect you need to go into the menu and adjust the levels. so there is more involved than just turning the knobs if your microphone gives a lower output level. The traditional method would involve turning a level gain selector with a screwdriver, these days you use a menu.

The mic trim apparently is on P60 of the FR2-LE manual, the above one is my mistake that's the F8 manual

Rick Reineke · October 18th, 2019, 09:37 AM

Again, I'm not familiar with FR2, but most mixers, recorders and cams, have a gain/trim level adjust (or at least switches) aside from the record volume adj.)
Nothing though is a substitute for close mic placement. Record multiple tracks, a boom and a lav. which is standard procedure anyway for most audio folks.

Ryan Elder · October 19th, 2019, 03:33 AM

Oh okay. Actually there is only one level knob on the F8, where as on the FR2-LE, there are two, the gain and the fader. Could this be why you have to turn it up more, cause you are turning them up separately, where as perhaps on the F8, both the gain and fader are in the same knob, so you don't have to turn it up as high therefore, cause it adds both simultaneously?

October 15th, 2019, 05:47 PM	#1
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? I've been using my Fostex FR2-LE recorder for years now, but I recently rented a Zoom F8 cause of the multichannel feature. I notice that with the F8, you only have to turn the level dial up about half way, maybe a little more, and that's enough to get a good level for normal voice dialogue. But with the FR2-LE, you have turn the level dial almost all the way up just to get a good level for dialogue, in comparison. So that makes me wonder, maybe the FR2-LE just has low pre-amp power in comparison to the F8. Does anyone know?

October 16th, 2019, 09:42 AM	#2
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? I do not have the specs for FR2. Many preamps only have a max available input gain of around +50 dB. By comparison, Zoom states the F8's available input gain as +75 dB. Take a look at the FR2 mic input specs and that should explain it..

October 16th, 2019, 06:38 PM	#3
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? Oh okay, well I thought that zoom you only have to turn up about two thirds as high, so that explains it I guess. Is it worth getting the Zoom F8 though, to record more quiet sounds?

October 17th, 2019, 01:33 AM	#4
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? What happens when you turn the gain up? the position of the knob is irrelevant if it does what you want. Does it have enough gain to capture quieter sounds, or use lower output mics without the noise floor being a problem? Preamps with too much gain can mean that when presented with loud sound you need to work right near the bottom - just as much a problem, meaning you need mic pads engaged. Is the FRE-2 noisy? I don't have one, but not seen any complaints about it's noise performance. Are you getting hiss on your distant mic work?

October 17th, 2019, 07:02 AM	#5
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? No I'm not getting hiss but I was told that turning the knob up all the way almost, is not good for the mic, if that's true.

October 17th, 2019, 06:56 PM	#7
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? Oh okay. Well it's just if you want to record things like a whisper, that can be hard to pick up, if you are trying to keep the mic out of frame, so I thought that maybe something with a higer db level, like the F8 might be better for things like that, if it would be. However, it has eight pre-amp ports if I remember correct, and that is why it's a lot more money, as I don't think I would ever need that many. So maybe something with just as good of pre-amps, but only a couple of ports, would be better.

October 17th, 2019, 07:26 PM	#8
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,995	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? That’s more of a question about the best way to record quiet dialogue. If the dialogue is too quiet and mic is too far away, raising the mixer gain really high will also increase the background and mic noise where it will stick out and not sound good.

October 17th, 2019, 08:01 PM	#9
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? Oh okay, so if the F8 has an extra 25 db, it can still bring up noise at that high then?

October 18th, 2019, 01:59 AM	#11
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? I don't know the recorder, but I assume you can set the gain for various mics and if you've got the knob up full it usually means your using the wrong settings. I would dig into the manual to find out the options, there appears to be possible menu settings on P72 of the manual.

October 18th, 2019, 07:12 AM	#12
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? Oh well the manual just says to turn up the levels so they are high enough, it doesn't list any catches as to why you have to turn it up almost all the way, to get it high enough though.

October 18th, 2019, 07:40 AM	#13
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? I suspect you need to go into the menu and adjust the levels. so there is more involved than just turning the knobs if your microphone gives a lower output level. The traditional method would involve turning a level gain selector with a screwdriver, these days you use a menu. The mic trim apparently is on P60 of the FR2-LE manual, the above one is my mistake that's the F8 manual Last edited by Brian Drysdale; October 18th, 2019 at 04:34 PM.

October 18th, 2019, 09:37 AM	#14
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? Again, I'm not familiar with FR2, but most mixers, recorders and cams, have a gain/trim level adjust (or at least switches) aside from the record volume adj.) Nothing though is a substitute for close mic placement. Record multiple tracks, a boom and a lav. which is standard procedure anyway for most audio folks.

October 19th, 2019, 03:33 AM	#15
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Does the Zoom F8 have higher pre-amplification than the FR2-LE? Oh okay. Actually there is only one level knob on the F8, where as on the FR2-LE, there are two, the gain and the fader. Could this be why you have to turn it up more, cause you are turning them up separately, where as perhaps on the F8, both the gain and fader are in the same knob, so you don't have to turn it up as high therefore, cause it adds both simultaneously?