WOW! When and who next beside of SI? Imo, CineformRAW for RED camera will be good choice:)

David,

This is the great thing about this community: you learn something new every time you are participating.

To be completely honest, I was not aware that it is "a well known technique" to do such procedure. So, would you point me to any particular area where that is taught/explained (basicaly, how it is done)? Also, I am not sure I understand what do you mean by "any extra software development". Are you referring to Prospect?

Thasks for iluminating me,

Luis Otero

Luis,

Techniques I refer to are probably not written up in any concise form, the basic idea is you don't want the camera to do things that you can do in post, but can't undo in post. A good example is sharping. Camera will sharpen the image, all CCD/CMOS image do need some sharpening, however removing the camera sharpen in post in not possible (short of blurring the entire image), yet added the sharping you need in post is much easier. Same goes for color the matrices and saturation controls. So much in camera will limit what you can do in post. In the ideal post world you can use everything the sensor "sees" and store this with high accuracy, however the 8-bit limitation of most cameras do limit how much you want to go without some camera processing, 10-bit gives you a lot more freedom to do this.

David,

Thanks for the information. The sharpenning area is well known, however other areas are not. That is why there are so many scene files being developed and shared within this forum, and I was wondering if you are aware of them, and have a professional opinion as to which one will give you the "like-RAW" footage. That could be a good start for us, the owners of HD100...

Also, I am aware of the 10-bit issue, so I am taking that for granted: it needs to be aquired through the component output into a computer using Prospect.

Thanks again,

Luis

Scenes files take the "raw" (lower case for non-bayer) sensor data, apply a color matrix to give a target result close to your color corrected look. That is fine if you get the look right and don't clip the data. The same look can be generated in post if you didn't apply the scene file. The advantage of the raw approach is all the color correction output are possible, using a scene file you narrow your post options. The disadvantage of the raw approach is you have to color correct everything. It will depend on the project whether you setup your color in camera (faster) or in post (more flexible.) I don't know the menus well enough in the HD100U to turn the color matrix off.

Will there be full online editing straight out of the camera head purchase box?
 

Who will buy this configuration:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=68113

. . . will already have a solution to post?

Full online editing (native & final resolution) allowing color correcting and grading tools?

Without any other software and/or hardware needs?

Not clear what you questions are. The SI camera work very tightly with Prospect HD Edit -- which cames bundled with the camera. PHD Edit enables Adobe products - AE, PPro - to operate seamlessly with CineForm RAW; enabling you use any color correctly or gradient tools you like that plug in to these applications. Prospect HD also comes with RT color correction.

hardware & software requirements for online editing
 

Merci

My first question is if when we are buying a laptop for the cam capture if this hardware is enough for editing work with the software bundled with the camera head. Is it? Or for online editing will it be necessary other hardware?

And secondly if the software could be or not to be licensed for online editing work purposes, the same is possible to ask about the CineForm RAW. If . . . is it allowed final online editing output from the camera head CineForm bundle?

(Could there be any kind of restriction for our information, isn't it? Like those small letters on the bottom of the insurance contracts . . .)

The Cineform Prospect HD license is separate from the camera head software . . . so you can run the camera head on one computer and keep your Cineform/Premiere Pro software license on another computer for editing.

The high-power laptops should be plenty of juice to work in Premiere Pro/Cineform for editing. The only issue with a laptop will be no HD-SDI output . . . but if you're burning HD-DVD's or something like that, I'm guessing there would be no issues.

But output to tape would be an issue from a laptop, and why you may want to use another workstation as your editing platform, depending on the output path you want to take, and what you'd like to use for monitoring.

Also if you're wanting to-do a film-out, you may want another monitor besides the screen on your laptop . . . those screens are not going to be very representational of a digital projector or film projection.

Well seen.

Like your minimum laptop requirements? Core Duo at 2.0 Ghz?

Any solution available from any external device?

Indeed. Again: any suggestion? Any external solution?

BTW to monitoring from a laptop, will there be any sort of HDMI signal output solution out there, isn't it? If even my home HD/DVD tuner recorder has it . . .

*EDIT*

Nevertheless, the major concern regarding the laptop that will work with the camera head is to know if . . . will it be enough also for online editing without hassles? As a true 1080p or even 2k editing & color correcting/grading workstation? In a simple laptop?

I'm coming from the filmmaking side so . . . but if that's true it will be an extraordinary achievement, a real revolution without historical precedents. As Mr. Coppola predicted two decades ago.

Hi Mathieu,

Everything that you've been mentioning and wondering about should work, you just need a powerful laptop . . . the fastest Core-Duo based laptop you can find.

My suggestion would be a completely decked-out Dell M90 Mobile Workstation if you want it to double as your editing machine as well, and get full performance benefits.

For monitoring there are solutions from eCinema systems for $10K and Cinetal for $16K that give you 23" LCD monitors calibrated for DI work with DVI inputs . . . if you want calibrated systems, I don't care who you get them from, they're going to be expensive.

The nice feature with the Cinetal is that it will take a DVI input and make it an HD-SDI ouput. So you can go through the monitor and use it as a device for that conversion.

Alternatively you can use a DVI-HD-SDI converter from Gefen.

On the Mac there is the new Matrox device, and that should work nicely when Cineform RAW works in Final Cut Pro . . . but I'm suggesting the Dell right now as a system that should work really nicely in the short-term, not a Macbook Pro.

2 GB, DDR2-667 SDRAM, 2 DIMM, will it be enough?

For monitoring, the Dell 2405FPW shouldn't it be enough? Or from the Apple's offer? Isn't it possible to calibrate it for DI work? Because all LCD/Plasma screens can't they be used for accurate color correcting or grading work? The same to DLP technology either? Does it mean including the projectors option?

*EDIT*Salut Jason et Merci!

Yes, that should be plenty.

BTW, just as a quick disclaimer, since we haven't "certified" any systems, and personally tested them, I can't completely vouch that a Dell M90 will work . . . but from what I know these systems require, and what I've had here in my lab, and from what I see on the spec sheets of the Dell M65 or M90, they should work fine.

Everyone considering pre-purchasing systems before we ship cameras needs to keep that in mind. There is no reason I can think of why these laptop systems won't work . . . but since we actually haven't used one to-do what we're doing, maybe there might be something that certain laptops may have a problem with . . . and that is where I can't tell and just don't know enough to be absolutely certain.

If you are worried that something won't work, please wait an let us test it, or at least test some systems and certify them.

When? Is there any schedule available? . . . Since I would like to buy a second laptop during the next days I'd be delighted . . .

*EDIT*

Two laptop solutions would be great: 17" and another lightweight one. 15,4" (M65 isn't it?) can be an option but if there would be smaller, it would be gold! Other brands?

If the future of the cinema is the blockbuster product for the big(ger) screen (3D/IMAX genre), on the other hand, it will be run & gun also. Indie as far as it gets . . . Follow the 10-years-ago-Dogma95/Lars-von-Trier-example, and you will be there. There will be two major winner formats.

Although we know that your camera is for indies, the most interesting is "these" indies will be working for the larger screen, as well. The danish is "the" example: who was thinking to see him in Hollywood? Someone said even Mr. Spielberg thought to adhere to the movement . . . Where's the frontier?

I'd offer a word of caution in investing in core duo CPU's right now, they are NOT EM64T capable therefore will not be able to run Windows vista or indeed any 64bit application and are very much a stop gap processor, it'd be far better to wait a little while for the next generation of them for a little bit of future proofing.

It's true. I bought last month a Turion 64-bits ready, exactly for that. But they are saying it will not be working. So, if we want a laptop recorder for this cam and they don't get other solution, we must be there. Is there any other possibility to shoot digital as digital and not as 35mm (that is the Arri/Panavision/Dalsa bet) ? Waiting for the RED? To next NAB maybe?

*EDIT* deleted

The next core duo's should be 64bit, codenamed Merom I believe, so they will be the first Intel powered laptops to look at portable CPU wise, till then I'd personally not bother, best sticking to the power hungry Pentium D's remembering that your battery life will be, well it really ain't long to be polite.


I mean there is a beta 32bit version of vista but what is the point, it's memory that is an issue for us and that means a 64bit OS wins out, hence it's best to save your money, get some intrest on it and buy when the next gen core duo is out.


One handy thing for those of us who build our own PC's is to have a list of motherboards etc tested with the camera or what is more usefull is an area on the SI forum where people can put down what works for them, helps to build a solid base of information for users of this camera.

I'm writing this response on a demo unit of the new Sony Vaio AR190. It's announced (and on Sony's website) but not yet shipping. It's a very sweet machine for editing. A few features include:

Core Duo T2500 (2GHz)
200GB drive organized as 2x 100GB RAID 0 (5400 rpm)
1GB RAM (I'd want 2GB in it)
17" WUXGA panel (1920 x 1200)
Blu Ray Drive
HDMI

One of the initial tests we run to evaluate editing performance is a 1920 x 1080 10-bit PremPro project through two streams, a transition, and color correction applied to each clip. Answer? No problem. The RAID allows two streams to be pulled simultaneously, and the 2GHz Core Duo can decode them both simultaneously plus apply the correction and the mix. This is a very nice machine. It seems that for mobile editing needs or on-location editing this machine will work very well.

We haven't qualified the AR190 for ingest with the SICam. The on-board networking on the AR190 doesn't support GigE (necessary for SICam ingest) but it reportedly has a doc that supports GigE. We're trying to get our hands on one. We'll let you know after we test it.

BTW, I'm not sure where the comment about Core Duo incompatibility with Vista comes from. Sony claims on their site that the T2500 is Vista compabitle. Yes I think it will run in 32-bit mode however.

You can get a Dell Mobil M2010 Now
 

the following unit is shipping from Dell right now. It has a 20.1 inch widescreen and RAID 0 (2x100GB) Hard Drive configuration see below.

Dell Inspiron XPS M2010:
Intel® Core® T2600 Duo Processor (2.16GHz/667MHz FSB)
Operating System (Office software not included):Genuine Windows® XP Professional
LCD Panel:20.1 inch WSXGA+ Wide Screen with TrueLife™ and Integrated Web Cam
Memory:2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
Hard Drive:200GB (2 x 100)7200RPM High Performance RAID Hard Drives
Combo/DVD+RW Drives:Slot Load DVD Drive on XPS M2010
Sound Options:Integrated Creative SoundBlaster High Definition Audio
Video Card:256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1800
Wireless Networking Cards:Intel 3945 802.11a/g Dual-band Mini-Card

I runs on dual 6 cell batteries! the think looks ultra cool for bringing onsite to show client your work or editing on location.

But like some people already mentioned it doesn't appear to have x64 bit processors, although the Dell site says it is Vista enabled? whatever that means.

If it has an ExpressCard slot you can get GigE if necessary, but better if it's on board and use the slot for eSata Raid drives.

Currently we're not 64-bit, so having 64-bit is not going to help you in the next year or so . . . we have no time-table for going 64-bit.

So, for the next year, Core duo laptops with good PCI-express-based 1000Base-T chipsets (ideally Intel's 82573 chipset) will be perfect for everything you will need for this camera.

Jason,

From what I could read, the M65 has a NVIDIA® Quadro FX 350M 512MB Turbocache, OpenGL and the M90 has a NVIDIA® Quadro FX 2500M, 512MB (dedicated), OpenGL. Substantial differences for the purpose (cam capture and online editing & CC-grading work) ? Or not really?

Merci!

No substantial difference for our application . . . maybe with the new features of After Effects there might be.

Dell Inspiron XPS M2010
 

Does the unit have Intel GigE...no mention of Wired Ethernet?

Toshiba Tablet M400
 

This Toshiba Tablet PC may be an excellent model to accompany a SILICON Mini.

It has several important features:

Core Duo up to 2.16GHz
Dual Channel DDR2 667MHz
Intel 10/100/1000 GigE
Wireless Networking
PCMCIA (put in a 32GB Flash Drive)
Tablet Touchscreen
4.5 lbs


http://cdgenp01.csd.toshiba.com/cont...400-ST9113.pdf

http://www.tabletpcreviewspot.com/de...econfigured%29

Also for online editing? I'm afraid while the M65 graphics has memory shared, the M90 is dedicated. Or 2Gb is enough even to share with the graphics? Again: not only to SILICON Mini capture but also for online editing and color correcting & grading purposes?

What does it mean?

Merci Jason et Ari (that tablet PC bet can be useful and I hope a tablet PC as certified system from you)

Our application means the Silicon Imaging capture and camera control application. A decent DX9-class graphics card will do the job since the program doesn't require THAT much from the graphics . . .

. . . Other applications like After Effects will take all the muscle you can give it.

From what I've seen most videographers aren't using more than 2 GB of memory, which is plenty for most current software. It might be good advice to wait for 64-bit computing, but I don't think it's going to make a huge difference for some of us.

Sorry it took a while to get back to you, yes the XPS 2010 does have 10/100/1000Kbs wired ethernet included (cat 5/6). It also has an optional blue tooth module if your into it. I'm not sure if the screen supports 1920x1200 native or not. My Dell XPS M170 (laptop) does have 1920x1200 native with all the same connections as the M2010 except web camera.

Very true but my point was that some people (not all) out there will use an expensive laptop for very power hungry apps in edit situations (ie AE) and expect it to be a little future proofed and for the money that is very reasonable to expect, some really are not aware that the core duo's right now are not 64bit CPU's, I don't tbh even include a 32bit vista as worthwhile seeing as Xp is so reliable now (although the Beta version runs very nicley if you want a free OS for a year), you may as well stick with XP so I should have been more precise on 64bit vs 32bit rather than stating just Vista, my fault :-), I mean maybe others out there have more money to spend on Laptops than I do so it's not a concern at all to them and I was wrong to mention it but I'd rather wait and buy when I know the laptop will last me as long as possible and if 1 person felt the same then it's worth warning them about the current core duo's.

I do feel there are 2 seperate discussions here now about editing and SI capture, I bow down to the SI guys on capture, it's there stunning camera after all :-)

I think in August we'll see the Merom systems starting to hit the market, so you'll get 64-bit then.

Remember that we're not certified to run on a 64-bit system right now . . . the gigabit drivers and API we're using for the camera data transfer are specifically made for 32-bit Windows, so if you're running 64-bit Windows, I'm not sure what to expect.

Dell XPS Notebooks and GigE
 

The Dell M1710 has Intel GigE and Dual Channel DDR:

http://www.dell.com/content/products...n=specs#tabtop

The M2010 does not have the Intel GigE, instead it uses a Broadcom.

Much appreciated, c'est vrai! There are 2 separate discussions but also there is who wants the two-solution-in-one aside the After Effects interest. Majorly for online editing and color correcting & grading purposes.

Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 950 with 8MB-128MB dynamically allocated shared graphics memory from the Ari hint will it be enough for both purposes?

Thanks for the August date Jason, makes it worthwhile hanging on a few months to at least have a chance of future proofing my investment :-)

The GMA950 will not accelerate the OpenGL features of After Effects 7.0 and it will not do the GPU acceleration of the Premiere Pro 2.0 filters like the fast color-corrector, etc.

Thanks,

Jason

Alright, try to explain us movie makers: does it mean that it will not be working from a tablet PC at all? Or not to accelerate just means will be slow and not necessarily that will not be working?

Or is there any other solution?

I need a laptop for online editing & color correcting too (fast or not, RT of course) and maybe for your camera too. It should be an interesting commitment. Help me to find a way for to play with your toy, will you?

Hi Mathieu,

Purchase a Dell M1710 laptop. That's what I would suggest for a do-it-all portable machine.

Put in two channels of memory. Get the fastest processor you can. The installed Geforce GPU will be fine for anything you can throw at it.

I really don't think there's really anything more to say about this topic on what will and won't work.

Thanks :)

The only problem with the Dell M1710 as an editing machine is that it doesn't have a RAID 0 array. Doing multiple stream editing on a single drive will not deliver the proper RT multi-stream performance. At 5400 rpm you can get a 160GB drive, but that's definitely only one stream. At 7200 rpm I think it's only about 100GB today, and also doesn't reliably support multiple streams.

I've tested the Vaio AR190 as an editing machine, and because of its RAID 0 configuration it can easily keep up with multiple 1080 streams in real time with color corrections applied on each clip plus a transition. It ships with two 100GB drives. They're each 5400 rpm, but because of the RAID 0 configuration they easily provide multiple-stream RT performance. I'm not sure if you can specify bigger drives in it or not - hopefully so.

So while the AR190 is good as an editing machine, how about for RT capture with the SILICON? It doesn't have GigE in its internal NIC, but it has an Express Card slot that should support GigE in the proper configuration for the SILICON. We also tested the dock unit today for the AR190 and it definitely has the proper GigE connection for SILICON.

The Dell will be great for CineForm RAW acquisition but only okay as an editing machine. For those who prefer a machine that does a good job at both I think the Vaio might be one step better.

Hi David,

Thanks for the update!

Looks like a very nice laptop, and the Expresscard NIC's are typically pretty good (they're using modern chipsets for aquisition which work well).

Thanks,

Jason