>>Ari, thanks for popping your head in to make a few posts. Yes, on the RAW issue, I was corrected. I completely stand corrected on that point, and I take back what I did say earler on that point. I was simply unaware that the Cineform codec could allow you to do that.<<

This is exactly why this thread is a GOOD thing, and not simply a flame war. There is a lot about the SI that we didn't quiet understand...until this thread came along.

EDIT: Jason, I posted this right as you posted yours above me. If you want to delete the thread it is up to you, of course. But I think this thread has served its purpose in terms of informing people about the SI camera and it also highlights many ASSUMPTIONS people are making about the RED camera.

No, no, I'm not deleting anything . . . I just want to get back on-topic . . . :)

Your user feedback is the most valuable asset we have . . . debating the featuers of RED, which even if you quote the boards is said to *still* be speculation, is not really very productive. You're completely right, RED is actually ALL ASSUMPTION at this point in time.

So, when the real RED comes out, then fair comparisons can be made . . . but the best thing for us will be the have the features all of you want . . . THAT will be the best way to compete or co-exist . . . we're not going to be around very long if we're not listening to you guys, making improvements, and evolving our product.

One thing I'd like to see on the SI camera (if not there already) is a DVI port to feed 1080 to a decent sized monitor. Everyone is getting excited about shooting with shallow DOF but without a decent monitor to see exactly where focus is that can be a two edged sword.

Another issue I don't think receiving enough attention is the quality of lens mounts and the whole engineering of the sensor to lens matching, my understanding is that this is a major cost component in (good) camera design.

I guess a decent back focus adjustment system would also be on the list for those who are going to be swapping lenses. Might not be an issue, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about!

Reason I raise these issues is we're contemplating the purchase of one or more SI cameras for rental but rental kit needs to be pretty bullet proof. Reading some blurb from one rental company in the USA the issues I've raised are significant factors with the F900 and so far I don't see these issues getting enough attention from RED or SI.

Is it possible these are the things that contribute to the much higher costs of cameras from Arrie and Panavision?

Hi Bob,

We have a DVI port feeding out 720P right now . . . it's at this resolution so that you won't loose sync to the on-board LCD/touchscreen interface which can't run at 1920x1080.

We've investigated doing two different resolutions to two different screens, but have found it takes up too many system resources to do the rest of what needs to be done in the system, like real-time compression to CineForm RAW.

But you can run "large" monitors at HD resolution, again, just make sure the monitor is capable of 720/60P.

Also in regards to the back focus system, we have a very robust system that allows you to set the back focus, and then clamp the lens mount down so that it's not going anywhere. It's actually much more robust than the plastic/metal combo of the Sony F900.

Hope this helps.

The way I see it is, with something like Silicon if you want to make a big budget or small indie flick and blow up to 35mm, it will look good. No evidence for that, but if the F900 can, so can this, and that is that. What we have here is a PRO camera that MIGHT deliver what the D20, HDCAM and Vipers can deliver. Period. Is RED better, I don't know, I don't care, who cares!

i think SI is doing good getting the word out on the SI camera since NAB and at the same time i'm not sure if there's a marketing plan in place ?????? but that could be just waiting for the Q3 release ... i've yet to see any ad on any web site or in print ????

will the SI camera remain HD (1920x1080) for Q3 release or will it move to 2k , HD, & 720p ... though 2k is just a slight bump IMO it has a totally different appeal/advertise/ or should i say i've been hearing about HD for over 15 years and when i see/hear HD i think TV ....
i've seen Ari post over at DVXuser with the possible S hd logo and the S 2k logo - IMO S2K attracks attention ... it puts it above many of the current HD camera's out there ...

also IMO the QT & FCP will also be a huge help for the SI market .. IMO a Producer/company always checks in with the DP and Editor on shooting and workflow -either one of those can put the "NO" on shooting a camera..
the SI may have the BEST post workflow this/that with premiere BUT IMO you are going to find editor after editor that will say NO to premiere ...

This is the SI forum and they are commenting on how they "feel" their product is being inaccurately presented when compared to another product. Call it advertising if you want but then you should go over to the RED forum and have every post removed as that product doesn't even exist then go into every other forum thread about any other camera and take anything good anyone says about a product and remove it. After all we don't want people advertising.

Most important, if having a company posting to these threads means they post an occasional "our product is great because" then so be it. There are not many places to go where you can actually communicate with the manufactures of the product you are using/going to use. It's nice to have the ear of the CE0 or CTO so let's give them some slack, especially when it's in their own forum.

Now to make this thread constructive...

Ari/Jason - Here is my free marketing advice - Get your camera into the hands of film makers. Lend it for free to various types of film projects (action, horror/suspence, comedy, Nature (National Geographic), etc. with the agreement that they must release footage as they shoot film.

The footage posted to the public forums and websites will serve to sell way more cameras and create way more interest than some count down on a web page or handouts telling people how great something will be.

The Spoon footage sells itself - without a a single sentence or marketing buzz word.

Tim is absolutely correct however the camera could advertise itself a little better although I think it's too small to do this effectively. Perhaps adding a large set of 'Micky Mouse' ears on the top with "SILICON IMAGING" in a large font would help, doesn't seem to have hurt Panavision.

Yeah, the QT link is good. I really love the idea of being able to run the rig with my Final Cut Pro system. Also, how much is the weight figuring at? I'm hoping under 15 pounds for flying on smaller Steadicams. That's one of the things I'm loving about the RED is that the body's only 7 pounds.

Alright, but for now I'm out of this thread, because simply I don't have enough time to be keeping up with this many threads.

Alright guys, now I'm just waiting to use it on a production. (Possibly along with the RED, in the ultimate of ideal situations.)

Yes, this helps a lot.
Looking at the Spoon production shoot stills I'm still a bit concerned though about running the imager - lens combo with remote recording. The imager block is way smaller and lighter than the lens and there's only one or two screws to secure the imager block to the camera plate and you need a spacer block under the imager block.
Traditionally the camera holds the lens but in this configuration that's almost reversed, maybe I'm being overly cautious engineering wise but I feel this could be a potential problem with klutzes not taking enough care in handling things. If it was my own camera this wouldn't worry me at all but having seen first hand how people can manage to damage jibs made of very solid metal any frailty in a lens mounting system is a bit of a worry in a rental situation.

The one thing that I do like about these next generation cameras is the overall simplicity. I'd never contemplate doing any work on any of the current camcorders myself but these new designs from SI and RED (to be impartial) look so much simpler to maintain.

We have several of these genres lined up to shoot with Silicon.

However, we should consider ways for individuals to get access to our camera, who may not have normally been able to shoot Cinema quality footage.

How about a contest of some sort to gain market interest? Winner(s) get Silicon to shoot their project?



PS. Tom....Thanks for playing along and please stick around :-) !

Hah, just wait until NAB 2007 when the DylanMegaPimp camera comes out and all you'se guys are shaking in your boots trying to figure out what that one big putton labeled "Magic Film Look - 3D" does and how "Onboard Smellovision" works...

there's Dv expo east i think July in NY ..and DV west LA in Nov ..

also Cinegear has expo in LA and FL IMO more persons that work in FILM industry go to cinegear ..and how should i say ? well 20k is not out of their range of thinking or pocket book ...

IMO have a few camera's at the shows !! AND try to get a room near by where you are projecting clips on the BIG SCREEN ( maybe 12- 15 min of clips and it repeats every 30 min or hr .. show a little digital projection and some clips transferred to FILM )

Ari,
Given the close proximity Upstate Independents has to your company, if I could put together a top notch team, would you be open to lending a camera out for say a two-day shoot? We'd be glad to allow the experience to be used for promotional purposes in any way you'd like. I'm pretty sure I could get some top people to sign on to this.

Lets do it :-) !

Awesome! Thanks.

I'd be very interested in publishing these results.

Steve Parker, Editor, Showreel

Ari,
you and the Spoon crew should be trying to get some coverage in the ASC magazine. Latest issue has some pretty good words on the XL-H1 / Wafian combo so you've already got a foot in the door. They've given quite a bit of space to the capabilities of the Cineform codec so you should be laughing and heck this is a camera cinematographers can relate to.

...If you can't hump a RED camera, then it doesnt exist...

Loaning a camera for testing to DV Magazine would be my first step.

Hi Marco,

I thought you were getting the camera and were going to do the write up for the pubs.

You really should consider submitting to "Showreel". Steve Parker, the editor, has already stated he is interested.

Anyone wanting a free subscription, here is a thread from the publisher

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67237

Their second issue in US is going out this month. We should plan on geting into the Sept/Oct issue. We will have some additional news to announce by then.

Ari,
I've actually begun corresponding with Steve, and absolutely would like to participate. In saying we'd like to shoot with the camera, I was intending to actually produce a five-minute short which we would submit to festivals. I've been having some discussions with our DP on what type of footage would really showcase what the camera can do.

Lenses for the Digital Era
 

Jason , just read this interesting article titled :Lenses for the Digital Era, written about zeiss digiprimes & caught site of this information :

"Maybe you agree that shooting wide-open at T 1.6 not only produces great-looking images with 35mm-like shallow depth-of-field (T 1.6 in 2/3in. HD approximates T 2.8 in 35mm), but also lowers the lighting bill. How do you afford to get your hands on them?"

Can you reconcile why they say T 1.6 in 2/3in. HD approximates T 2.8 in 35mm & how this affects the SI2k (i am confused)?
The article can be found at:
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ma...s_digital_era/

35mm DOF
 

We need to get our FAQ back up on our web site:

How can you claim "35mm-like depth-of-field" if you're using a 2/3" sensor?

Because the SI-2K is a single sensor design, wider-aperture S16mm film lenses can be used such as the Ziess Superspeeds, which can go to a maximum aperture of f1.2. This is in comparison to the widest aperture 3-CCD primes, which are limited to an f-stop of f1.5.

In the comparison below, we have taken a 20mm Zeiss Superspeed S16 lens set at a f-stop of f1.4, and compared it to two common 35mm formats. The subject is 3 meters away from the focal plane. The results, using the depth-of-field calculator on the Panavison New Zealand website are as follows:

--2/3" Sensor, 20mm lens, f1.4 (which is possible using Zeiss Superspeeds) - Depth-of-field of 1.39m

--Panavision Std 35mm HDTV 16:9 TV Trans 0.825x0.464" (CoC=0.001"), f5.6, 45mm lens - Depth-of-field of 1.31m

--Arri Std 35mm HDTV 16:9 TV Trans 21x11.8mm (CoC=0.025mm), f5.6, 43mm lens - Depth-of-field of 1.43m

The surprising conclusion from these calculations shows that the SI-2Ks depth-of-field, when using this large aperture Ziess S16mm lens, can in fact be the equivalent of a given 35mm format's depth-of-field when shooting at an f-stop of f5.6 in 35mm (for the same FOV). Also, if one were to shoot at f1.2 (which Zeiss Superspeeds can open up to at their wides aperture setting), the depth-of-field on the 2/3" sensor would be equivalent to a f4-f5.6 split in 35mm, since f1.2 is another half-stop wider than f1.4. This does not mean that a 2/3" sensor will always match 35mm film or a 35mm-sized sensor in DOF, but it does prove an advantage to using S16mm prime lenses on the SI-2K, where ground-glass converters and other "tricks" are not necessarily needed if one's aim is to get shallow "35mm-like" DOF. A similar effect to the shallow DOF of a 35mm camera can be achieved by placing Superspeed S16mm optics on the SI-2K and opening them up to their widest apertures.