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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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PXW-X70 Firmware V2.0 Upgrade includes chargeable element and will be available June 2015 New Features & Improvements: Support for 4K (QFHD) Recording (optional) This 4K recording update provides support for QFHD shooting at 30p/25p/24p, allowing the X70 to capture scenes with stunning quality and at high resolution*. Furthermore, for projects finalized in HD, 4K recording greatly expands the creative possibilities by enabling digital panning, camera-shake correction and other post-production effects. NOTE: 4K recording requires purchase of the 4K Upgrade License (CBKZ-X70FX). Format Resolution Wrap Quality Frame Rate Bit Rate XAVC-L 3840x 2160 MXF 4:2:08bit 29.97p 60Mbps 23.98p 60Mbps25p 60Mbps *We are looking to support a higher bit-rate recording mode than 60 Mbps for 3840x2160 XAVC-L in the future. So there is hope - if the AX100 already has 100Mbps then it should be 100 on the X70 - maybe even 150 unless there are mechanical limitations like overheating etc. Pardon my ignorance but does the flavor of XAVC used in the X70 allow for 10 bit and 4:2:2 for 4K ? |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Nope, UHD/4K on the X70 is only 4:2:0. 8 bit. (supposedly the HDMI is 4:2:2, 8 bit though)
Yes, I have known about their "possible, maybe, might, could someday have a chance of higher bitrate" statement. It's not very reassuring and is no way any actual commitment on Sony's part. If they do manage to get a higher bitrate, I'd be shocked if they did anything other than 100Mbp/s. (Even though Sony's direct JVC competitor does 150Mbp/s) It's just sad to see a professional market "XDCAM" CODEC getting passed by cheap "HandyCams" and "Action Cam" CODECs I'd love to see Sony fix this so we can all forget about this screw up and try to pretend that it never happened and never speak of it again. It's literally a disgrace today. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
But you forget it is wrapped in "professional" MXF wrapper. The consumer models are wrapped in civilian non professional mp4 wrappers. How does that saying go......you can polish a turd?
Paul |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
I'll take the .mp4 wrapper over .mxf any day. .Mp4 is practically universal. Everything can play it. .Mxf?..a complety different story.
I'm not even sure why .mxf is considered the more desirable container. .mp4 is used professionly on other cameras like JVC and even on SxS cards with XDCAM. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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So, a question now comes to my mind: did any of you - AX100 and X70 owners - compare the AX100, 100 Mbps stuff with the 60 Mbps X70 material with the above in mind? With a mediocre camera systems like those two, a very fine line exists somewhere that separates the low bitrate, compression artefact prone and difficult to grade stuff - from that with higher bitrate, less compression artefact, easier to grade but perhaps more noisy in the first place... I'm just asking, as I never had the opportunity to watch any of them like it should be watched - large display with full UHD support. Doesn't the 60 Mbps stuff show less noise than its 100 Mbps version? With just a little penalty of compression artefacts that many don't even see at all?!! |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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One has to compare apples with apples. I don't know the details about the 4K implementation on the X70 as yet but comparing the technical difference between the MP4 50-mbit HD of the JVC GY-LS300 and the MXF 50-mbit HD off the X70 shows a world of difference just between those two examples not withstanding that one is 8-bit and the other 10-bit.
The JVC: Video Format : MPEG-4 Format profile : QuickTime Codec ID : qt Overall bit rate mode : Variable Overall bit rate : 49.8 Mbps ID : 1 Format : AVC Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec Format profile : High 4:2:2@L4.2 Format settings, CABAC : No Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=24 Codec ID : avc1 Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding The Sony: Video Format : MXF Format version : 1.3 Format profile : OP-1a Format settings : Closed / Complete Overall bit rate mode : Variable Overall bit rate : 54.2 Mbps Writing application : Sony Mem 2.00 ID : 2 Format : AVC Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec Format profile : High 4:2:2@L4.2 Format settings, CABAC : Yes Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12 Format settings, wrapping mode : Frame Codec ID : 0D01030102106001-0401020201316001 On the JVC you will notice two major and I mean in the terms of H.264 encoding major differences. Firstly the JVC does not appear to be employing Context-Based Adaptive Binary Arithmetic Coding, CABAC in other words, the Sony is. The JVC Long GOP is encoding an 'I' frame at every 24 (N=24) frames whereas the Sony is encoding an 'I' frame every 12 (N=12) frames which is twice as efficient in terms of prediction accuracy between 'I' frames. A brief overview of CABAC efficiency over the VLC (Variable Length Code) that the JVC seems to be employing: CABAC entropy coding method is part of the Main Profile of H.264/AVC and has found its way into video streaming, broadcast and storage applications within this profile. Results have shown the superior performance of CABAC in comparison to the baseline entropy coding method of VLC/CAVLC. For typical test sequences in broadcast applications. Averaged bit-rate savings of 9% to 14% corresponding to a range of acceptable video quality of about 30–38 dB were obtained. For the real background on CABAC go Fraunhofer the inventors of the scheme: CABAC Also bear in mind that the X70 is part of the Sony XDCam lineup and therefore uses the broadcast Material Exchange Format for its wrapper. Sony's AX100 uses the much simpler .MP4 wrapper but that no longer cuts it today in the XAVC broadcast world. XAVC-S in the consumer market is wrapped as .MP4. In other words we all have to be careful not to put a too simplistic analysis on codec bit rates vis-a-vis one another when there are many other serious considerations that go into configuring an efficient and bit rate economical codec and its wrapper. it will be interesting to see what Sony have done with its UHD version for the X70. For me the X70 25/30p UHD holds very little interest. If I was to go that way it it would have to be a 50p version for me to be of any real benefit. A full breakdown of the JVC and Sony 50-mbit codecs are attached in TXT form. Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Many thanks Christopher for your post. I have taken the liberty of printing it out and intend to win a few beers with it someday soon.
Cheers Brian |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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It was common for manufacturers to use CALVC entropy scheme when h.264 was considered "difficult" to work with in the early years of the CODEC. CALVC required less CPU horsepower to use than CABAC did. However, today, I'm not sure why CALVC is still being used. Modern processors have caught up to CABAC and it's not longer a big issue to work with any more. Totally spit-balling here but I'm wondering if CABAC requires and more expensive MPEG LA licensing fee to employ it? Maybe not. I have no idea why JVC is not using it. It's always been available to all manufacturers. You just needed the extra CPU power to work with it. Sony has been using CABAC since the old AVCHD days of h.264....very strange on JVC's part. As far as .mp4 vs .mxf. I still fail to see why the .mxf container is more "pro" than .mp4. Any company can pack the exact same CODEC specs and achieve the EXACT same image quality in either container. The image quality lies in the CODEC used. The container or wrapper has nothing to do with image quality at all. .Mp4 is a pretty universal standard with extremely wide support. .MXF?...well yeah, it holds certain metadata in certain places but that is no benefit to me. In my opinion, .mp4 is just as "pro" as .mxf...so I don't know why Sony likes .MXF for XDCAM and .mp4 for Handycams and Alphas. I don't know, it seems to be Sony marketing illusion? |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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Cliff no not quite.
"I don't know, it seems to be Sony marketing illusion?" I think this misses the point about MXF. It goes way deeper than that. The prime reasons Sony and Panasonic use the MXF container is that: "The Material eXchange Format (MXF) is a container format for professional digital video and audio media defined by a set of SMPTE standards. The MXF is a "container" or "wrapper" format which supports a number of different streams of coded "essence", encoded in any of a variety of video and audio compression formats, together with a metadata wrapper which describes the material contained within the MXF file. MXF has been designed to address a number of problems with non-professional formats. MXF has full time code and metadata support that is not supported in the generic MP4 container. MXF is intended as a platform-agnostic stable standard for future professional video and audio applications. MXF was developed to carry a subset of the Advanced Authoring Format (AAF) data model, under a policy known as the Zero Divergence Directive (ZDD). This theoretically enables MXF/AAF workflows between non-linear editing (NLE) systems using AAF and cameras, servers, and other devices using MXF." If you have ever had to export AAF (Advanced Authoring Format) files from an edit session for further work in Pro Tools you would then appreciate the ease of doing this when working with MXF files. MXF was developed for the professional broadcast world. The reason why the X70 records MXF files is this little camera was dropped into the broadcast XDCam HD lineup. I am the first to agree that for users of this camera who aren't using the camera in a broadcast environment and who's footage isn't being used in a broadcast workflow then MXF wrapped files are totally unnecessary. MP4 is the way to go and that is exactly what you will find on the Sony AX100, MP4. On the other hand if you buy into a SMPTE ratified standard such as MXF you have to expect all that goes with that even if it's of little use to any particular user outside the broadcast industry. As for the 4K upgrade on this camera it doesn't meet any broadcast UHD Tier 1 or Tier 2 camera requirement and therefore requires no ratification. Just look at its UHD '4K' as an an added bonus if you wish to make use of it. The primary purpose of this camera was to have a broadcast compliant MXF HD and I stress HD camera that was cheap, used cheap media, was easy to use and that could be put into the hands of video-journos, news self shooters etc of which there are more of these days. If you are interested in the usefulness of MXF in the broadcast world it's pretty well covered in the attached PDFs. I found these docs fairly informative as we do sport and documentary work for broadcast. MXF is all we use for broadcast acquisition plus all our imported archive material for docs is converted to MXF on the fly via Blackmagic cards using Sony Vegas as Vegas can do real-time conversions to MXF. For our corporate work AVCHD with its basic .MTS wrapper is more than sufficient. Chris Young CYV Productions Sydney |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Yup. .MXF does have allot of metadata advantages over .MP4, no doubt. And, if you have a specific work flow built around .mxf, than yeah, you are in heaven with it. (For me as an event and corporate shooter, I'm just as fine with .mp4)
Ironically, the X70's original firmware screwed up it's .mxf implementation. I was shocked when I tried to pull a "MediaInfo" metadata list and saw that my .mxf files almost no data displayed at all. Sony did fix this in it's last X70 update. I'm still shocked as to how that one slipped through the Sony cracks. (and took sooooooo long to fix) I think most of us know that the wrapper has no impact on the visual quality of the CODEC used. However, I still have people coming up to me and saying, "I think .MXF looks better than .MP4" I still have to shake my head and tell people "It's just a container, it's NOT the actual video CODEC" Christopher, maybe you can shed some light on this about .MXF: I don't know this as a fact but I have read that the container format DOES have an affect on the playback processing overhead. I have read that "unpacking" the CODEC form the file is not the same process across the different container formats. In other words, reading h.264 or MPEG2 from an .MOV, or MP4 or MTS or M2TS or any other of the dozen containers results in different amounts of CPU playback overhead. I have been told that MTS is the simplest but I know that supports muxing ability so I don't know. Can anybody out there answer that? I have also read that reading a CODEC inside .MXF is a bit more processor taxing than other container formats. I have always wondered the truth that question..... CT |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
I'll say it again: most of this (ALL of this?) discussion is academic.
How many of you have actually viewed your 4K footage on a 4K monitor (even a consumer one?) Did you see a lot of compression artifacting? Of course not. To repeat: I projected my 4K X70 footage onto a 15-foot screen using a high-end professional 4K projector in the main color grading suite at Roush Media in Burbank. They grade feature films and TV, ranging from 35mm to Alexa, Red, FS700, Canon 5Ds, Canon C300s and C500s, and Sony F55s in 4K (XAVC, Log, Raw.) Sr. Colorist Keith Roush remarked that the footage from the X70 graded like images from the $16,000 (plus lenses) C500 and was very impressed. As was I. (And to repeat again, I own an F55 and have shot numerous 4K projects in the abovementioned color gamuts. So I have some perspective on this.) You can talk numbers and algorithms all day long, but what it comes down to is "How does it actually LOOK?" In the demanding environment of that 4K color grading suite where EVERY fault is purposely revealed, the 4K X70 footage looked AMAZING... far better than it should for a $2,500 camera! |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
I'm certainly not saying it looks "bad". It actually looks OK. I have watched plenty of X70 4K footage on my 70 inch 4k consumer TV. Yes, you will see macro blocking on highly complex areas that have random motion. Tree branches and leaves in my forest shots will block up. Water and ocean wave splashes will too.
And yes, if you shoot with a desaturated, flat profile, you will notice more breakdown after to add the contrast and saturation back. You certainly don't need an expensive studio to see it. You are talking high-end Hollywood major Studio productions? If you brought 60Mbp/s to 99% of them, they'd laugh at you. Those guys don't want to see any long GOP 8 bit codec. They all want at least 10 4:2:2 ProRes. For "real" (snobby) Hollywood colorists, that's the typical "minimum" that they expect. Yes, 60Mbp/s looks good. I'm not saying it sucks. However, I think that if 60Mbp/s was perfectly OK, than every other camera from Panasonic, Canon, JVC, Canon and Sony would use it. But they dont....nobody does. 100Mbp/s h.264 is the de facto "low-end" UHD standard in the industry today. Ever wonder why Sony upgraded the AX100 with 100Mbp/s? Do you really think that was unnecessary on Sony's part? If you do, well?...Sony engineers obviously disagree with you. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Not sure why you're seeing blocking. I am not and have shot extensive movement: trees, leaves, waterfall. Zero macroblocking. None. And no banding either.
I have a VERY picky colorist and we were looking at this on the most unforgiving platform that exists, designed to reveal any flaws. It looked terrific-- and I am picky too. I also looked at the footage on a very low-end $1,000 Chinese 4K consumer monitor with a colleague who shoots F55 and F65 and we were all very surprised at its quality. I just do not see (literally) how this discussion on "low" bit rate has any pertinence in the real world of the finished product and how the viewer will perceive it. The X70 makes stunning images and it's a $2,500 camera for gosh sakes!! Give it a rest! |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
And Clif, when you write, "This really is a shame. Can somebody please tell me why Sony is doing this? The X70 is an "XDCAM" with a codec that is easily beat by it's Handycam and Action Cam cousins.
This is embarrassing and it's a shame.", then you later write, "I'm not saying it sucks.", I have a hard time trying to understand what you're trying to communicate. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
And a "final" note... Mbps is only one small part of the equation as to how an image looks. If you bet all your money on that one hand you'll lose every time. Codecs matter. Sensors matter. The codec chip matters. Color space matters. Color gamut matters. Dynamic range matters. The type of compression algorithm matters. In fact, I submit that ALL those matter more than the Mbps rate.
And the compression algorithms Sony uses in its codecs are different from those used by Canon, Panasonic, Red, Arri, etc., and they are in a constant state of evolution. You cannot compare 60 Mbps from one manufacturer to another with meaningful metrics. Same goes for the 100 Mbps in the AX100 and the 60 Mbps in the X70. The codecs are different. The X70 has vastly different Picture Profiles from the AZ100 offering far more latitude in how its image can look. Lots of factors to consider that MUST be considered. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Wow Cliff. U r sorta off ur rocker man! Chill out and stop thinking about numbers so much. I bet u use a PC because u can hit better numbers for cheaper? Am I right? What about Android vs iPhone? U must be Android cus again the number, ON PAPER, look better!! I had a feeling that this whole bitrate conspiracy was going to end with someone like Jody doing real world work with the files!! Plus all your "pros" that will not touch a petty 60mbs file prob get footage from way less nowadays. Im sure they have even used some, wait for it..... iPhone video and found it acceptable for what it was being used for. And if u don't like the cam, go get one of the 100+ bitrate cams so u can feel better and stop annoying the people that are trying to work together to talk about a camera they happen to appreciate or may be researching. In short, noone cares about your whining!!! And thanks Jody!!!
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
The CODEC inside all forms of XAVC-S-L-I is the same...industry standard MPEG H.264 at various levels. The hardware VSLI chips might be different but the CODEC across them is all the same.
Forget about Panny, Canon, and JVC. Let's just look at Sony itself. XAVC has a tall ladder of H.264 implementations for XAVC. It ranges from 8bit, 4:2:0 Long GOP@ 60Mbp/s and goes up to 10bit 4:2:2 10bit Intra @ 600Mbp/s with different frame rates.. Today 60Mbp/s 8bit, 4:2:0 is the LOWEST rung on the XAVC ladder. In fact, I will argue that Sony will not likely ever build a future 4K camera locked at 60Mbp/s only. (they have conceded that its' not enough today even for ENTRY level camcorders) I think it's safe to say that all new Sony models will carry at least 100Mbp/s as an option. Yes, even the grandmother-friendly AX33 does 100Mbps. Honestly, I never expected to hear anybody say; "60Mbp/s is good enough for me" Especially not when every other Sony camera now has 100Mbp/s. If 60 gives you all you want, does that mean if Sony adds 100 to the X70 that you will NOT use it?...because there is no reason to,....right? ;-) As far as the Hollywood colorist goes. I have never myself heard of any colorist that "likes" 8bit 4:2:0 video with EXTREMELY high compression ratios like 60Mbp/s in UHD. (never met one) Dont know what to tell you there. Extremely high compression rations are always a colorists worst enemy. (so is 4:2:0 video that has HALF the chroma resolution that luma resolution...and 8 bit?..hahah) If 60Mbp/s is "good enough"...I'm sorry but Sony doesn't agree with that. This is why they built XAVC with many, many higher specs. Look,...I think 60Mbp/s is "OK" if you dont need to grade it. That is why I say it doesn't "suck". But yes, I do agree with Sony on giving 100Mbp/s to ALL 4k models from here on in. And I agree completely with Panny, JVC and Canon engineers and going 100Mbp/s or higher too for their models too. I agree with Sony giving the tiny 4k ActionCam 100 also. Sony and the rest of the industry is doing the right thing today with 100Mbp/s! Now Sony,...please do this for your X70 too. For the EXACT SAME REASONS that you did it for your entire 4k camera fleet. CT p.s. On the issue of dynamic range, sensor resolving power, noise and all other aspects of every camera?...this is a completely separate argument than the CODEC topic here. Yes, obviously those are "pre-CODEC" conditions that are not in this X70 bitrate debate. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
It bothers me in the regard that you are well beyond stating facts and constructive input for everyone. It borders on being a troll. But u said this... "Look,...I think 60Mbp/s is "OK" if you dont need to grade it." Ask Jody about that. Im sure he could tell u again how it colored fine!!! Anyways, Im not trying to start anything. I was just reading thru and all I kept thinking was "give it up already!"
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Wow,...sounds like you are really taking this bitrate and CODEC stuff to heart. It's certainly not something to stress about. As far as grading 8bit 4:2:0 60Mbp/s?...if your guy likes it, good for him. You can certainly grade ANY video you want. There are no hard "rules" that say you cant grade ANY video....no matter how compressed it is. Who is to say what looks "great" and what doesn't? It's all subjective. You could rip a 4k 15Mbp/s video off YouTube with the RX10-II's SLOG-2 gamma curve and grade it. You might even say that it looks awesome. Who am I to say you are wrong?
It's all good,..we are all just chit chatting here anyway. No need to get upset about the numbers or any opinion that anybody has here. It's just all opinion anyway. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Cliff is clearly a Sony fan as he has at least two Sony's and would obviously like Sony to up the data rate on the X70 . Not sure if he thinks Sony will listen to him but I doubt it. It is either in their plans or not. As previously stated I think the main purpose of the X70 is as a HD 10 bit 4:2:2 camera for which its data rate is fine. To truly meet the XDCAM 4k features ( Z100. FS7, F5 etc ) it would need to go to 50/60P and at least 150Mbps like the PXW-Z100 or the FDR-AX1, in my mind that just is not going to happen. The mistake Sony made I think is putting 4K on it at all. I have an AX100 and an AX1 and can tell you the image quality from the AX1 at 60P 150Mbps is better than either of these cameras shooting 30P at 60 or 100Mbps. If you want to see the leaves or grass move smoothly you need frame rates faster than 25/30P. I got the AX100 for its potential resale value rather than the CX900 and only shoot HD on it which is lovely and better than my NX5U !!!
Ron Evans |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Sony fan? I'm embarrassed to say that I'm a Sony "tool" or Sony "puppet"!!
I have now owned 16 different Sony models in the last 20 years. This includes Handycam, NXCAM, XDCAM and Alpha models. My current lineup is EX1r, X70, A7s and AX100. MY new RX10-II will be here on Friday. My AX100 goes on eBay next week and my A7s will be replaced by the A7s-II when that hits the streets. I'm thinking IBC time or in Q4. My complaints to Sony about 100mbp/s are mostly just me telling Sony to be consistent, that's all. If they are going to give a $900 Handycam 100mbp/s than please give at least the same thing to a $2500 Pro model too. Sony has stated that they are working on it but won't give any promises. They know that a 60mbp/s cap is very unpopular because of this consistency mismatch. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
I truly wonder if ANYONE here has actually done the tests that I have done with this camera? Have you, Clif?
This isn't personal (it really isn't), so there's no feelings to be hurt here, and I intend no one any ill will. I just want the truth to be told and correct error. People slam codecs and bit rates and all kinds of stuff, CMOS imagers with "rolling shutter", purporting that those are terrible, awful, horrible, unthinkable factors that render certain cameras unacceptable for professional use. They usually do this with ZERO real-world tests, and certainly not tests under rigorous and exacting conditions such as the demanding 4K color grading theater at Roush Media (with one of the best colorists in Hollywood), as well as ShapeShifter Post in Hollywood with Senior Colorist Randy Coonfield. I am fortunate to live in Los Angeles and work with VERY demanding DPs, directors, producers, and colorists (Oscar and Emmy winners) who will tear to shreds any camera system that comes their way if they dislike it for any reason. This is the crucible and I live in it. In the 39 years I've worked professionally as a D.P. (with one national Emmy under my belt), I have owned the following: Sony D600 Betacam SP, Sony PD100, Sony PD150, Sony F900, Sony F900R, Sony F350 XDCAM HD, Sony Z1U, Sony V1U, Sony EX1, Sony EX3, Sony 3D1U (3D camera), Sony FS700, Sony F55, Sony PXW-X70, and a fleet of GoPros. I was Sony's primary U.S. tester for most of these cameras, plus the PDW-700 and F800, and have used them in a wide range of programs such as ABC World News Tonight, GMA, Nightline, 20/20, Dateline NBC, 48 Hours, PBS "Frontline", Oprah, National Geographic, CBS dramas "J.A.G", "NCIS", and "NCIS: Los Angeles", NBC drama "Medium", feature films, network comedies, and commercials. I was in the Iraq War with Peter Jennings and Diane Sawyer, the L.A. Riots with CNN, devastating fires with ABC News, have shot underwater for CBS News, JAG, NCIS, Nat Geo, and Sony, worked with US presidents and hundreds of celebrities such as Michael Jackson, Cher, Christie Brinkley, Cindy Crawford, Sharon Stone, Oprah, even Charles Manson... too many others to even remember. I've worked extensively on the open ocean, in jungles in Southeast Asia, in alpine environments, in Death Valley. And yes, I've shot weddings too. Many thousands have seen my presentations at events like NAB, at Sundance, at DV Expo, and SATIS in Paris. They will tell you that my sole job is to share my experiences with these different camera platforms in REAL WORLD conditions... what works and what doesn't work so well... what challenges I encountered... the mistakes I made and how I overcame them (if I did.) I am your Crash-Test Dummy. I am your Consumer Reports. I am the guy that has used just about every camera system out there (including the first RED camera) and has made all the mistakes you can make! When I talk about a camera system like the X70, I have a broad base of comparative analysis. It does not make me right, only experienced. I take my work seriously and am concerned ultimately about one thing, "Does this camera system deliver what I need it to in real-world conditions for my client's demands and my audience's expectations?" Specs, numbers, codecs, algorithms, bit depth, data rates are all good starting points. But the speed at which technology advances often makes images recorded at last month's higher data rate inferior to this month's lower one. I've witnessed that firsthand for a good decade now. I've had engineers call me out in front of several hundred attendees stating that there's no way the camera can look good with a 35 mbps data rate at 4:2:0 and the networks will never air that. (Except of course the top-rated drama on television, "NCIS", which utilized some of my footage in the show's opening montage, 35 mbps, 4:2:0...) Bottom line: use anything you like. It does not matter one whit to me. Feel free to ignore the experiences I've had, the mistakes I've made, and real-world tests under demanding conditions. Doesn't matter to me. My job is not to sell cameras or anything else. My job is simply to be the best visual storyteller I can be using the best tools for each job, and to share that with anyone who's interested. And to be a truth-teller and dispel rumors so my colleagues can be better visual storytellers too. We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. I've been very fortunate to have shared company with some of the greatest visual storytellers of all time. I hope a little of their magic has been imparted to me, as I hope I've been able to impart some of that to others along the way as well. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Jody, I am sure (somewhat sure) you would agree that a properly calibrated camera (colorimetry) with a crappy codec looks better than an ugly scope picture on the best codec available!
My number one wish to Santa is for Sony to stop putting their greens half way to yellow. :-P Paul |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
It's all about how the image looks in the medium it needs to look right in (theater, home, projection at event or house of worship, internet, smartphone, ad display, etc.)
How. It. Actually. Looks. As for a Sony camera leaning yellow, just adjust the tint on your monitor! FIXED! ;-) |
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I am not a specifications guy but I judge my camera's based on what I see, when the sony rx10 came out some geartech sites trashed it because the avchd codec was supposed to be useless, something Sony has address later on by adding the xavc-s codec. I honestly couldn't see an issue with the "old" 28mbs codec, it was fine for me and for my paying clients, ofcourse I could see codec break-up when took framegrabs from high detailed moving images and blow them up in photoshop but who watches a film like that anyway. I also believe you never can win an argument based on specifications only but by shooting in real world scenarios and comparing camera's side by side. |
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Simple question to Jody: If you asked your colorist; "I'm shooting some awesome stuff next week. My PXW-X70 can do 60Mbp/s or 100Mbp/s....which one do you prefer I bring it to you in?" (Let's say you were shooting a car chase/crash/explosion scene for next season's NCIS) What would he tell you to use?.... Why?.... Simple question for all: If Sony upgraded your X70 and it could shoot in either 60Mbp/s or 100Mbp/s (like it's AX100's baby sister does) Which bit rate would you use? (let's say you were on vacation in Yellowstone shooting a grizzly attacking a wolf.) Why?..... CT ;-) |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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My gh4 can do different high bitrates in 1080p yet I always shoot at 50mbs ipb, why, because I compared and they look the same to me so again I save space and get a IQ that suits my and my clients needs. If I would be shooting high detail scenes with lots of motion and if I would have high IQ demands from my clients I would shoot in the highest bitrate possible, if I would have a camera like the x70 and if the 4K option would not meet my needs I simply would sell the camera and buy a camera that does. I don't see any need to complain about something that might never change, with Sony you can only hope they might give you a firmware update but they move in mysterious ways, maybe they have a x70 mark II in mind that can do 4K50p at 100+mbs, maybe they will provide a firmware update or maybe they just leave it as is and move into another direction depending on sales. Just get a camera that fits your needs now and start shooting instead of dreaming of that pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. :) |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
To support Noa. The only difference I see between 30P at 60 or 100Mbps ( on the AX100 or the AX1 ) is if I pan then both are awful compared to 60P at 150Mbps. Fixed on a tripod I see no difference between 60Mbps and 100Mbps. As mentioned before 30P is too slow for me so only shoot at 60P anyway.
Ron Evans |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
I have a simple question for Cliff; have you even shot 4K with the x70 and if so, can you show us why it's a codec that doesn't deliver? So no numbers this time, just something visual that shows that the 60mbs codec from the x70 is no match against a 100mbs+ codec from any of those other 12 camera's you mentioned at the beginning of this thread.
Or maybe just the ax33, it can do 100mbs but I have read that owners have been underwhelmed by the IQ of this camera compared to a ax100, can we say that the x70 is even worse, because it only does 60mbs? |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Noa, I'm not saying it's terrible or anything of the sort. Guys, I'm not saying the AX100 or the X70 is unusable, ungradable garbage. An yeah, the AX33 at 100Mbp/s wont look as good as the AX100/X70 at 60Mbp/s. The AX100/X70's front end is WAY better than the AX33's....no CODEC bitrate at the end of the camera can "fix" that image. Yes, we ALL know this.
Some of you are completely missing my point. When a codec gets it's image input, it discards TONS of information. The H.264 implementation that XAVC uses is about as good as the h.264 library allows it to be. Sony does a great job with it's encoders. So with that being said,...more image data is being dis-guarded in 60Mbp/s than it is in 100Mbp/s. The compression ratio is significantly higher in 60Mbp/s. The bits per pixel count is lower than it is in 100Mbps. (Sorry Noa for using "numbers" here on you) 60 Mbp/s holds well on static scenes. I have tested 60 vs.100 on light motion testing. I have not done it of fast complex motion scenes. But, yes I will before I sell my AX100. Here...I did this a couple of months ago. This is very low complexity scene with just tree branches moving. Yes, 60mbp/s holds up well. but this is literally as "static" as it gets so it's not stressing out the 60 very much at all. I suppose I can do a light and dark shady scene with allot of motion to see how fast the two break. Remember, bits are always allocated to mid tones first and shadows get the least so they are usually the first areas of a CODEC to break and macro block up. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
Clif, until you stop talking numbers and start talking real-world results, we have nowhere else to go in this conversation.
As to which codecs my colorists would prefer, that would be 16-bit 4K F55 Raw (@ 23.98) or S-Log, or 16-bit F65 Raw. The 4K F55 would be 960 mbps and the F65 could be as high as 5 GBps. |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
BTW, we compared 4K AX100 footage @100 mbps to 4K 60 mbps from the X70 in that same 4K grading suite. Two DPs and the senior colorist all agreed that the footage recorded in the X70's XAVC-L codec was superior in most respects, and inferior in none.
Some of the footage was captured with the two cameras side-by-side shooting the exact same shots. WHAT MATTERS: the images from both cameras looked very, very good and were more than adequate for the productions being shot with them. (My friend who owns the AX100 loves it, but after seeing my X70 and the 4K tests he is strongly considering selling his and buying an X70. Better features, deeper menu, more advanced picture profiles, a seemingly superior recording codec, etc.) |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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You have S-LOG listed. What CODEC do they want their S-LOG in and does that "really" matter in your opinion? |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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[QUOTE=Two DPs and the senior colorist all agreed that the footage recorded in the X70's XAVC-L codec was superior in most respects, and inferior in none."[/QUOTE] Can you clarify that a little bit?...was "superior" to what?"...."inferior to non?...non, what? |
Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
They are the same CODEC but two different bitrates. The CODEC is H.264 for both. XAVC-S,-L and I all use the same codec.(with different frame rates, bit rates, inter and intra modes)
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Re: Sony X70 4K - Lowest bit rate in the industry!
So? What are you trying to say now? Jody said the x70 codec looked superior to the ax100, even if it had a lower bitrate, so can we conclude the 60mbs bitrate from the x70 is more then adequate to compete with a 100mbs codec from "other 4k" camera's?
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