Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Be careful reading random internet reviews... "bob" is clearly a soccer mom level shooter...

There are 24p and 30p modes(he also references 25p, I presume a UK/EU/PAL mode option, don't know if EU cams have 30p,, but I would think the option is there?) - either he had the wrong memory card (limiting the available modes), or didn't know how to set up the camera, or a bit of both... with extra helpings of the latter! User malfunctions are the frequent source of poor reviews.

Flickering and jerking as already noted are a result of letting the camera run auto in high shutter speeds, the effect can be pretty horrible, and bit many reviewers in the butt when the AX100 came out.. At first I thought my AX100 was defective, until I started to run manual shutter speeds, which brought the shimmer and judder under acceptable control... and made it a favorite cam, even if it doesn't shoot 60p (and yes, it would be NICE, but is a technical limit I don't find THAT insurmountable).

4K cameras require a little bit of actual knowledge of how cameras work to get the best results, and can go horribly wrong if you just go "auto"....


The other factor is that one needs a 4K capable processing and display chain... my primary laptop with a fairly up to date 5th gen i5 stumbles quite a bit on 4K, both online (YouTube) and local files, and it's fast with an SSD and decent overall specs.... 60p HD is no problem...

I have another 4th gen i7 gaming machine for serious 4K work... I'm still trying to figure out where the threshold is for "minimum" specs on a machine, but 4K requires a fairly beefy configuration, and if you don't have it, you'll be dealing with some "jerking" and stuttering.

I'm still experimenting with the AX53 a bit, and trying to figure out why it seems to go soft at wide, and then sharpen up as it zooms in. The BOSS stabilization is definitely solid, and is an advantage over the AX100 and RX10M2, but both those cams are producing a sharper image (as expected, sensor size matters...). The question I'm asking myself is how close is close enough - I'm getting some shots that are very decent 4K, others seem a bit soft, but not "bad". Way better than the AX33, but the AX100 set a pretty high bar.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Is it even possible to lock the shutter at 1/50 while assigning iris adjustment to the lensring? With my cx730 i can only control one setting trough that front dial, all the rest is handled automatically by the camera.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Yes it is possible to fix shutter and control the effective exposure . However this is only true if you use AE shift. The camera will decide what values of iris and gain to use. These cameras always have control of gain but you can control depth of field with iris (pretty much everything is in focus with a small sensor anyway and loose control of gain and shutter speed ) or shutter speed (and loose control of iris and gain ). If you use the " exposure " control on the camera you loose control of all of them as the camera will decide what values to use, but you can fix what the image looks like at that time and the camera will not change. I personally always use shutter speed and use AE shift to control how bright or dark the image appears. The camera will then keep this relative image brightness by changing iris and gain ( in fact looking at the data code it changes gain most of the time). I also set AGC limit and it will work with this too in AE shift. All my stuff is indoors so I want all the light I can get so set shutter to 1/60 on all the cameras so that motion blur is the same on all of them.

In this regard the AX53 is just like my CX700, NX30U, XR500. The AX100 does have full manual control but will also work just like the other Sony's if set that way.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Hi Noa and everyone,

It's been my experience that this flickering on the AX100, especially with high detail scenes, greatly diminishes if you use manual focus. This makes me wonder if the flickering is due, in part, to rapid pulsing of the autofocus.

Pat

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Could be that more then one factor comes into play, like very small auto focus adjustments, not sure if it is the case but I feel there is also incamera sharpening going on that also contributes to the problem.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I agree. If it had tunable sharpening levels and a bit more dynamic range, it would be an incredible video camera.

Pat

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Thank you Dave for taking the time to reply.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I'm pretty sure setting the shutter to 50 or 60 depending on your region, then limiting the video AGC to 0dB allows you then to control the exposure without the camera adding gain automatically - appears to work here I'm obtaining totally clean shots in very low light, without using the AE shift at all.

Maybe I'm wrong but it appears to work fine, giving good exposure control and no unwanted noise.

Paul :-)

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

How can you shoot in very low light if you don't let the camera add any gain at all?

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Yes you are correct Paul but what you have done is let the camera have auto control of gain but limit its ability to do so. It is what I do for my theatre shoots so that the cameras do not try and see in the dark. Usually limit to 18db or 21db depending on the lighting. But the camera is still in automatic gain control. You cannot set gain to say 6db and shutter to 1/60 and let the camera control iris for example. Which you can do with the AX100. I still think AE shift is the better choice as I have found the camera most of the time will try and place the iris for max depth of field it can and use gain to adjust exposure. Since these are consumer cameras this is of course the best choice. When it has control of shutter too it will of course choose the optimum performance from the sensor and lens.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I have a CX 760 that I use as a travel cam.
It was cam of the year when it was released, and still IMO sets a high standard for a compact, fairly full featured HD handicam with BOSS stabilization.
I am not interested in UHD for travel shooting at present (I have an X70 if I need UHD capability).
So, I am wondering what's the case that could be made for upgrading to an AX-53?
One important downside for me is that the AX-53 appears to be significantly larger- so it's got to offer some significant functional improvement to make the extra bulk worthwhile
Ron, I know you have a lot of experience with the CX 700 series, what is your opinion??
Thanks

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

From what I have seen and heard the ax-53 is close to the ax100 when it comes to IQ, unlike the ax33 which received quite some negative response on IQ. I have a ax100 and a cx730 and if the ax-53 would look much like the ax100 the only reason to get it over a cx730 would be the extra image detail you get. I notice this best when I shoot a wedding and have to match ceremony footage from the ax100 and cx730. The ax100 resolves visible more detail and it's only in that respect you start to see the cx730 is starting to age. This is why I only use the ax100 in 4K set wide so I can crop in post so that it becomes less noticeable against my other HD only camera's. When it comes to ease of shooting, I still much prefer my cx730, even if it does not have the same manual features and image detail as a ax100, that boss stabilization is from another planet and hard to leave behind, especially when I"m shooting handheld, I would always trade 4k resolution for a better OIS.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Attached are a few photos of size comparison ( AX53 is in the middle in all photos ) to the AX100 and the NX30U ( like your CX760 ). It is midway between the NX30U and the AX100 in size. Wider than the NX30U and a little more heavy. The two things that stand out are longer zoom, wider wide angle and cleaner image in XAVC-S than the NX30U. It also has full data code and time code( in XAVC-S file ) too for integration with other cameras if that is what you want to use for multicam editing sync. Image quality is closer to the AX100 than the NX30U, clean and sharp. It is a lot bigger as you can see but I have changed to use it for family stuff rather than the NX30U. Performance is a little less sensitive than the NX30U ( maybe 1/2 stop and a stop slower than the AX100 ) but a lot cleaner especially at really high gain. I would say a marginal but noticeable improvement over the NX30U. Side by side the image is cleaner and a lot sharper than the AVCHD from the NX30U. Interworks well with the AX100 and both of course shoot UHD 30P. You should note though that the older A/V or LANC with adapters , wired remotes do not work with the AX53 and you will need one of the new Sony wired remotes or it does work with the IR remote from the NX30U but does not come with a wireless remote.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I know there has been discussions of managing exposure on these small Sony's especially in low light. In bright light ( like snow ) I have a variable ND that I use. Still set shutter maybe 120 in bright light but use AE shift control at + max, AGC limit 6db. Look at a reasonable scene and rotate the ND until the image starts to go dark. So now the camera has max gain and fully open iris. Back off the ND just a little and turn AE shift to 0 again, set shutter speed to 90. I have found this works fine for me and gives the camera some control range in the snow while limiting the light. The aim is to get the light input so that the camera can control iris and gain in the f3.4 and +6db range for max depth of field. Not great but about all one can do. If you add too much ND the iris will open full and gain will go up and shutter will go down ( if you are in auto shutter it is why I always set shutter speed ). In other words you are forcing the camera into a position of needing max iris and gain and then giving it back ( reducing shutter speed and AE shift since you cannot see what is happening to gain or iris only after the fact in the data code ) Then you can control with AE shift up or down.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

On my sony handicams I prefer to always handle the exposure manually as I get better controlled results out of that. I just don't like AE shift and only use it unless I have no other choice, in such a case you are still letting the camera handle exposure by itself and it doesn't always know what it should be, you can compensate with AE but in quick changing light conditions you are adjusting for the camera not getting it right, that means the exposure can fluctuate a bit all the time while you keep on correcting the camera, something that doesn't occur in manual mode.

With my ax100 it's easy to do it fully manual but with my cx730 turning the dial will affect f-stop, iso and shutter since I never use a nd on that camera but I can live with a too high shutter when I can lock and control my exposure.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Yes it is always a compromise when you can't control everything. But there is no manual mode on the small Sony's only the "exposure " control which fixes everything but under the control of the auto exposure of the camera. You have no control of what the camera chooses only how you see the brightness of the image with your eyes ( or use Zebras etc ) just like AE shift . With the exposure control the camera will fix these parameters and with AE shift the relative brightness will be maintained. At least with AE shift one has control of shutter speed and AGC limit. With changing scenes levels AE shift will maintain the brightness level but the exposure control will stay the same. With shooting when skiing I do not want to keep adjusting and do not like the shutter to be too fast so hence my approach of forcing the camera into a narrow control band. In the theatre the small cameras are unattended and I do not want to fix exposure but let the camera control based on the stage lighting hence again I use AE shift. Fixing the exposure control doesn't work in the theatre because the lighting swings are too much. Data code shows the full range of exposure on the unattended camera for some plays ie wide open iris and full gain ( I limit gain to 21db) to the exact opposite. The camera is fixed, the stage is fixed and only the level of the stage lighting is changing so AE shift works well to maintain a relative brightness level. Only when a single actor is in a small spotlight on a black stage does the system fall apart !!! But in those instance both my wife and I have that actor in our framing with controlled exposure so there is not a problem. I did start off, years ago, using the exposure control but after some really too dark or totally over exposed video moved to AE shift.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

so ron using the ae shift unmanned, it knows to open up or close just rigth where its not too hot or too dark?
thats really good if it can do that. im always using the dial to adjust the xposure up and down, while manning my ex1r. it would be nice to know i can do the ae shift and i will be happy with the outcome.i know u made an adjustment of the ae, -7? i think i saw that.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I usually use -0.7. There are of course limitations. The obvious one being, in my case an actor in a spotlight and the rest of the stage black. It will not manage that of course and will over expose as expected, but for normal light changes it works well within a range that can be adjusted later without over exposing or being too dark. My wife uses this all the time with the AX100 as she does the closeups for me and rarely changes this setting, sometimes going to -0.5 if she thinks it is getting a little dark for her liking. Means she can focus on framing and focus rather than also worry about exposure. She watches the zebra to see if it get too hot set at 85%. Unattended I always set at 0.7 as I can lift the shadows later. Remember it is not the only camera as I am full manual with my NX5U and my wife is closeup with the AX100 so wide swings in lighting are usually managed.

For normal family hand held stuff I also have the camera in AE shift at -0.5 with general surrounding as the Sony's are usually too hot in normal auto. With the AX53 and the AX100 it is better to underexpose as the shadows are easy to correct using YUV filter in EDIUS and it is too easy to overexpose the highlights.

Essentially AE shift says to the camera keep the exposure at this difference to what you would normally set as auto default.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Hi, I hope I don´t break the topic, but since here is a lively discussion about the AX53 I´d like to ask a question to the AX53 owners:

My first AX53 showed a strange behaviour while using manual focus especially in full tele (peaking and focus magnifier on). I didn´t find any dependencies to recording mode (using 4K, 25p, 100Mbps) etc., but I had to turn the focus wheel for more than 7 full rotations from nearest focus to farest!! This was nearly unusable!!

I had the camcorder exchanged for a second copy since this unit didn´t show that behaviour in the shop, even Sony couldn't answer me competent after placing that question.
The second copy only needs about 1,2 turns from near to far what is ok for me.

The only difference between these two copies is, that I had updated the first cam to 1.01 directly after the purchase, my second is still 1.00. I don´t know how the first had focused with 1.00.

Could anyone here check that behaviour who already has updated to 1.01?



Beside that a very nice camcorder and good addition to my X70, better than my former AX33 in most regards!
Unluckily the BOSS is still not working using a monopod. The stabilizer always becomes very unstable after a few seconds.
Using a monopod would help avoiding the rotational movement that the BOSS doesn´t compensate in standard mode. Moving the cam slightly for-/backwards with the monopod helps but looks somewhat silly!!
The AX33 had the same problem. I also contacted Sony for this, waiting for a response...

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I prefer zebra at 100% and follow these rules:
Neutral colored items (white, grey) can easily be recorded with zebra completely showing up. When exposure get´s even higher zebra starts to disappear. This happens from IRE105 on where the camera really clips and looses differentiation!

With colored items I found to go best not to exceed IRE100 (zebra starts showing) since zebra seems to show up until one RGB primary reaches 100% but only disappears when all primaries clip.
When one primary clips and the others not this leads to "distortion" and "ugly appearance".

In post in EDIUS I always correct to IRE0 to IRE100 setting a linear YUV curve from 0,16 to 16,16 (bottom) and 16,16 to 255,235 with a slight buckle in the top.
Going this way should enable me to use the largest DR the camera gives me. This works good for me on both my X70 and my AX53.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Not sure if this is a bug? On a monopod the stabilization should be turned off, especially in the boss mode because it will introduce unwanted corrections, this can be best seen when you are on a tripod zoomed in and then do a pan, as soon as you stop panning the image bounces around for a second or 2. The boss system is remarkably effective when shooting handheld but has an opposite effect on a tripod, and possibly a monopod as well.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

No "bug", but I think this may be improved since the stabilisation is working fine for the first few seconds! The picture in these first seconds is clearly more steady than using a monopod without steadyshot on. But after first few seconds the closed loop control becomes "unstable". Similar to first stabilizer systems on photo cameras like Nikon VR e.g.. They fixed this.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Don't expect Sony to be doing anything about it, as long as the boss system works as it should when you shoot handheld it is functioning correctly. This camera is targeted to people taking it on holiday and film their children growing up and they all shoot handheld.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I don't like the rotational component of movement that is not compensated yet, so there is place for improvement.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

See this people filming "handheld" with an ax33 ;-) ;-) ;-)!!!

Kleine 4K Videokamera mit W-LAN | FDR-AX33 | Sony DE

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

He probably has the stabilization set to off in such a case like it should, I know how the boss system acts as I have a cx730 and you can' t compare it with any other camera out there because no-one uses the same system, if you shoot handheld the boss system is very effective in stabilizing the image, if you shoot on a tripod or monopod you disable it, the boss system is not designed to work properly in such a case.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

For me shooting stage shows I want to make sure that faces are well exposed but not over exposed. I ignore zebras on white shirts etc only look for zebra on faces. Since normal practice is 75% for well exposed faces 85% means they are becoming over exposed. The compromise is how well the rest of the frame is exposed. I have found that setting at 75% often means the rest of the frame is too under exposed and since I too use EDIUS means too much playing with YUV curves to get reasonable picture. Hence I have found 85% to be the sweet spot. Both AX100 and AX53 or even the NX30U manage lifted shadows really well so it is better to under expose slightly to get good faces. For the AX100, AX53 and NX30U AE shift at -0.7 gets the black level spot on and highlights are at 105 easily brought down with the YUV curve for those white shirts etc. My wife only alters the AE shift if she sees zebras ( at 85% ) and this rarely happens with AE shift at - 0.7 .

Ron Evans

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

What about my initial question? Anybody using manual focus on AX53 and already on FW1.01??

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I am still on 1.00 and do not use manual focus. Use spot focus all the time. Not sure if I would benefit by updating since it works fine for me. Will update when the current set of projects is finished in a few weeks.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Off topic I know but there isn't a FDR-AX53 in the UK that I can see, all waiting for stock :)

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Yes, unluckily it seems there won't be any until august.
What a mess for potential buyers and af course for Sony. They are loosing some further millions...!

I'm so lucky I got one of the very latest here in Germany at Saturn Düsseldorf, even had the chance to exchange, but now they're also gone. Hardly anyone has that camera in stock anymore.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Thanks Roland, wonder why until August?

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Sonys sensor fabs were damaged in a recent (april ?!) earthquake in Japan. Sonyalpharumors stated that some still cameras production will be delayed until august, I think camcorders are also affected.
Here in Germany the AX53 is very hardly available any more, only very few shops have one in stock any more.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

In Belgium and the Netherlands the camera is still in stock in most larger videostores.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Ah well, I can wait, thanks all.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

Thanks, guys, for discussing the AX53 availability. I just ordered one because the posibility of waiting until August was not an option. It was the last one they had in stock so hopefully they don’t come back and tell me their computer system was not up to date.

Trying to keep Roland’s question alive, posts #59 and #68:
If anyone has any insight it would be appreciated.

stay away from FW1.01 on AX53
 

So, now I'm sure: the manual focus problems come with FW1.01! A friend of mine also got his AX53. In contrast to mine manufactured in 03/2016 his is 05/2016 and already came with FW1.01.

He also needs 7 turns in tele to focus from close to far - unusable!! Hope Sony fixes that soon!!

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

It says auto focus is improved with the update. Has he tried using spot focus ( touch ) in full tele to see if the speed or accuracy is improved? It may be quicker to use spot focus then if needed fine tune with manual. I have never been able to improve focus from the touch focus which is why I now always use touch focus. Downside is rack focus is at a fixed speed ( if you touch another part of the image ) so if you want to control the focus transition speed you will have to use manual.

Ron Evans

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I compared focus speed in tele but I can't see any difference, but we were only on 4k 25p. Maybe there are improvements in FHD since the sensor is read out faster.
I hardly use AF since it struggles in complex situations, even spot focus does. Shooting birds through branches or similar things is hardly possible. In full tele depth of field is quite shallow, so even in not that complex situations it's hard to get focus on the eyes with AF. But AF isn't really bad on the AX53. In many situations you get good results.

Re: New Sony AX-53 Testing
 

I only use auto focus when shooting family stuff. My projects are in the theatre so a less difficult task to spot focus. My wife uses the AX100 to shoot closeups for our shoot and uses spot focus to focus on eyes of faces etc. Camera is left in manual focus and when she wants to re focus just touches the My button and the place on the LCD she wants to be in focus. I just felt that using touch focus to get close would mean very little movement for you to finish focus manually rather than 7 turns. If you set you My Buttons to be Manual focus( spot touch focus ), Focus Magnifier, Imagestabilizer ( or what ever ) and set the ring for focus. Then if you use touch focus followed by focusing on the ring focus magnifier will kick in as soon as you touch the ring and you can check if the focus is Ok. Just did a test shooting into the trees in my back garden and touch focus got it spot on all the time for me when I checked with focusing. I have peaking set so that I can see what is in focus too as one of my normal My Buttons.

Ron Evans