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-   -   PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles) (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-eng-efp-shoulder-mounts/471485-pmw-350-developing-scene-files-picture-profiles.html)

Andy Shipsides March 12th, 2010 12:30 PM

Here are the AbelCineTech PMW350 looks I've made.

http://blog.abelcine.com/wp-content/...10/03/SONY.zip

Just unzip and copy onto an SxS card. Enjoy.

Tom Roper March 12th, 2010 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Cronin (Post 1498574)
Interesting Tom I wonder how this test would change with more expensive lens? It might show the Kit lens is great or is limited.

It would not show anything about the kit lens, although you could compare/contrast the result of the better lens to it. Since the kit lens achieve nyquist at the center, I would expect the expensive lens could be better at the corners, could be better zoomed, could have better bokeh, less flare, better build etc.

Mike Marriage March 12th, 2010 01:10 PM

I've been using settings based on Alister's HG4 settings but have found the blacks a little washy so now use:

Black Gamma at -30
H Mid

I understand the idea of preserving info for the grade but I was always crushing them so may as well do it in camera prior to compression.

Alistair, I found those matrix settings a little too washed out. May just be personal taste.

Alister Chapman March 12th, 2010 02:07 PM

if you use the multi-matrix to combine my less yellow matrix with one of the presets you can boost the saturation or raise all of the matrix settings by the same amount you will have higher saturation.

I did suggest suggest using black gamma to give the Hypergamma images more punch at the expense of gradability earlier in the thread. These are my current scene file settings:

Alister-Natural (If you do NOT intend to grade include: Black Gamma On, Level -30, Range High)

Master Black -3, Gamma On, Gamma select 4 4609, Gamma Category HG, Detail On, Level -12, H/V Ratio +15, Crispening 0, Frequency +30, White Limit +30, Black Limit +40, Aperture On, Level -20. Matrix On, Preset Matrix On, Preset select 2, User Matrix On, R-G 0, R-B +5, G-R -6, G-B +8, B-R -15, B-G -9

Alister-Filmic, designed to be graded. (as above but Aperture OFF, Detail Level -16, Preset Matrix OFF)

Master Black -3, Gamma On, Gamma select 4 4609, Gamma Category HG, Detail On, Level -16, H/V Ratio +15, Crispening 0, Frequency +30, White Limit +30, Black Limit +40, Aperture OFF. Matrix On, Preset Matrix OFF, User Matrix On, R-G 0, R-B +5, G-R -6, G-B +8, B-R -15, B-G -9

Alister-Canon-Look (Deep filmic look with semi crushed blacks)

Master Black -4, Gamma On, Gamma select 4 4609, Gamma Category HG, Black Gamma ON, level -40, Range High. Detail On, Level -10, H/V Ratio +15, Crispening 0, Frequency +30, White Limit +30, Black Limit +40, Aperture OFF. Matrix On, Preset Matrix On, Preset select 2, User Matrix On, R-G 0, R-B +7, G-R -6, G-B +9, B-R -17, B-G -10

Tom Roper March 12th, 2010 02:28 PM

Alister you posted the screen grabs at twilight in the other thread with the 350 and the 700. Were they also shot with the above or similar settings, in particular HG4? They are very nice.

David Issko March 12th, 2010 02:47 PM

Gentlemen,

First of all, thank you all for being so selfless and posting your camera settings findings. It takes a lot of precious time to setup so many camera settings.

Yes, I know what is suitable for one may not be for another, however the settings can be a very helpful starting point, even if they are NOT the settings for you!.

I know that Paul uses a ZA lens, but what are you other posters using please?

Thanks very much

Alister Chapman March 12th, 2010 03:12 PM

Yes, they were done with HG4.

I'm using the kit lens on my 350.

Paul Cronin March 12th, 2010 03:51 PM

I am happy to post my favorite setting but I am not there yet. When I am I will post it. Appreciate Alister, Tom, and Andy posting. I have looked at Alister and Tom's and changed both to my liking but also have been working on others but nothing is close yet. Andy I will check your settings out.

We did another round of test today still not sun so all cloudy sky test.

Alister Chapman March 14th, 2010 10:33 AM

Having established that aperture is the cause of the halo's around highlights, I went back and took a fresh look at the detail settings. When I was doing a test shooting a grey scale on a PC screen I noticed a lot of "noise" in some parts of the picture. This noise turned out to be excessive detail correction on the pixels of the computer display. Investigating this I found that the detail "Limit" setting could be used to control the detail correction over-shoots. Playing with this some more I have found that I can use Limit to control the appearance of the detail correction, allowing me to use more detail without the pictures becoming too electronic.
So I am now looking at the following detail settings, which allow me to use less aperture correction, all default unless noted:
Detail: ON, level +5, Limit +60, Frequency +20 (be careful with frequency, as any higher than +30 leads to aliasing)
Aperture: ON, level -50

Tom Roper March 14th, 2010 11:12 AM

That's interesting. I had thought Limit was a top level control for Black Limit and White Limit at once.

I'll step outside and give this a checkout.

Alister Chapman March 14th, 2010 11:35 AM

You are right, it is an overall limiter for both the black and white levels, but if you back off the aperture setting (or turn it off) you can afford to use more detail correction. In a way what I am doing is using Detail as a substitute for aperture. Aperture on the 350 is more than just the high frequency boost that it is in the PWW and HDW cameras. On my PDW-700 I often run with quite a low detail level (or detail off) but with aperture at around +70 to give a crisp picture. This doesn't give the nasty black halos around highlights that the 350 gives. This is the look I'm trying to emulate, crisp, but without obvious edges on everything.

Tom Roper March 14th, 2010 12:21 PM

I understand you exactly.

I went outside and tried this, and my first impression is that it looked great, exceptionally clean, with full natural detail, really film like. Only problem, is flat light today.

But I was still able to observe that thin, unleaved tree branches against a white sky retained fine detail without white halos. Detail in the grass, the mortar, the bricks looks resolved, not grainy, and free of outlines. Distant geometric shapes, like roof tops, window frames, siding and fences had appropriate detail, a natural look, again film like.

I suspect this could be pushed farther, although I admit that on first glance I like the way it looks as is.

The question marks remaining for me, how will it work in strong daylight, will it work equally for progressive and interlace shots. No reason to doubt it from what I've seen, and moreover want to see how this looks on the 50 inch Elite 1080p plasma monitor, but for now I want to spend more time shooting with it while it is daylight, even if flat.

Definitely appreciate your further explorations.

Alister Chapman March 14th, 2010 12:37 PM

Playing with it briefly today I think you could push up the detail level if you want to sharpen the image while halos and edges stay well controlled, I found +8 to be the limit of what I personally consider acceptable. I looked at the behavior with a waveform monitor and the +60 Limit setting is preventing over/undershoots almost completely.

Thierry Humeau March 14th, 2010 01:30 PM

I am currently using my PMW-350 on a shoot in Africa with a lots of challenging light situations. Here are a few observations...

- Latitude does not seem as good as F800. Filming highly contrasted scenes is more challenging than with the F800
- Here and there, I get some weird greenish flare issues when shooting with large bright contrasty areas in the background like windows. This is no typical lens flare (I wish it was...) but more like a geometrical pattern that could be based on the CMOS elements pattern. And that is showing whith F5.6-8 apreture range, so not really pushing it. So, PMW350 not as clean as F800 in those kind of situations.
- Depending of the ambient light (sunny or overcast), I have to play a lot with the black level adjustment to get properly saturated blacks.

One more thing, what about the HDW Gamma curve on that camera? It's good for flat and overcast ligths situation but seems to crush the blacks way to much in bright sunshine. Is it trying to emulate the HDW cameras gamma curves?

Best,

Thierry.

Tom Roper March 14th, 2010 10:41 PM

Alister,

I had the chance to try the new limiter setting, exactly as outlined. As sometimes happens when viewing the output on the larger 50 inch 1080p plasma, it changes my opinion somewhat. While the stated goal is to allow using more detail without becoming too electronic, and while it largely succeeds at that, on a subjective level it goes just a bit too far for my taste. Strange from me I know, since I usually advocate a little more and even inquired of you about pushing this setting a bit.

When viewing progressive material, it did not alias, so that was good, and it did not halo or put outlines on edges. I don't usually shoot 24p without a tripod, but this time I did. And when panning and with graceful movements, it did not show moire even on geometric patterns like diagonals, roofing tiles, or other problem areas which is good. But camera movements did reveal a slightly busy side, just a little crispy. The same observations about interlaced generally.

I think the positives to take from this, reducing the aperture and frequency settings, increasing the Limiter were effective. Increasing the detail to +5 is a little too far for my taste. Knowing your dislike for excessive enhancement, I suspect you may upon reflection prefer to go more conservative there as well. Again, your stated goal was to expand the frontier for those preferring a more detailed look while avoiding halos, and this extends that option to them.

What I would ask of you, is to make a comment about my current detail settings, which I think gives a cleaner, less electronic (if less crispy) look, with an eye toward adapting your findings.

Detail Level: -11 (where I am currently, my preferred.)
H/V Balance: +35 (I could be wrong, but I think this gave me a smoother MTF50 transfer curve, with no negative consequences that I could discern, so I have maintained it, looks good.)
Frequency: +50 (I have not discerned aliasing. It's possible I'm wrong, but if you consider an interactive relationship could exist between detail level and frequency, reducing detail could be mitigating aliasing otherwise caused by a higher frequency setting? In other words, +20 or +30 might be the max you could go before aliasing with a +5 detail setting, but at a lower detail level setting -11, perhaps it's possible to go higher on the frequency before the onset of aliasing?)
Black Limit: +75
White Limit: +75 (Since you confirmed the Limit setting of +60 on your waveform monitor, I'm thinking about incorporating that top level setting in lieu of my separate Blk/Wht limits which I would return to zero.)
Aperture: -20 (I see more negative than positive benefits from this adjustment, I was going to adopt the -50 setting).

So if I was going to blend the above factors into a new recipe, would you have a comment about a hypothetical setting as follows?

Detail: -8 or 9
H/V Balance: +35
Frequency: +35 to 45
Limit: +60
Aperture: -50

My current setting is already quite clean. The only reason for considering increasing detail to -8 or 9 would be to offset the loss of detail from dialing back aperture to -50.

Alternatively, I could just do that anyway, keep my exisiting settings except replace the Blk/Wht Limits with the top level Limit setting of +60, and just dial back aperture to -50.

Lot of thinking out loud here. Are you sure Frequency of +50 is too high, sure to cause aliasing, if the detail level were reduced to -11? Cause I don't see a problem with it.

Tom Roper March 14th, 2010 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thierry Humeau (Post 1499515)
I am currently using my PMW-350 on a shoot in Africa with a lots of challenging light situations.

Thierry, I think the 350 overexposes in some situations. What has been working well for me, is from the menu to enable the Iris Override option. Thereafter the auto exposure can be dialed down a couple notches (-.5) using the little knob on the front, or otherwise reduce the exposure manually. I have also at times enabled the Black gamma, to a setting of +10 H.Mid to prevent the loss of shadow detail when underexposing as described.

Jeff Zimmerman March 17th, 2010 12:58 PM

Sony's Website - Standard Scene Files PDW-F350
 
Found a page on Sony's website for some standard scene files. Thought I would share the link since I found them very helpful. Not sure if anyone else posted these. If so, sorry in advance.

Sony | Micro Site - XDCAM

Alister Chapman March 20th, 2010 03:11 PM

Latest Scene Files to download
 
1 Attachment(s)
Below is a full set of my latest PMW-350 scene files.

Mainly matrix tweaks.
neut2 is one I like that gives rich primary colours while still reasonably true to life.
Cine1 is a sudo filmic look (crushes blacks)
Film1 is meant to emulate well saturated film stock
DSC-1 is based on Chroma-Du-Monde chart for accurate daylight color
Neut is my first matrix tweak for a less green look and warmer skin tones.

Paul Cronin March 20th, 2010 03:55 PM

Thank you Alister nice of you to share. I will check these out if my camera is still around.

Tom Roper March 23rd, 2010 12:50 PM

Notes on Exposure
 
There are some interesting settings that can help manage tough lighting situations.

Iris2 (in the maintenance menu):

Iris Window Ind - By default, the exposure indication window is off. The first thing to do is turn it on.

Iris Window: By default set to #1, this selects a metering window beginning about 1/3 down from the top, and the full width of the frame. An interesting thing to do is change this setting to "Var." This will permit resizing and relocating of the metering window.

Iris Var Width/Iris Var Height: These two settings permit changing the width and height of the metering window. You can have a window the size of the full frame, or reduce it to a very small box (spot meter).

Iris Var V/H Pos: These two settings permit repositioning the window anywhere within the frame.

Clip High Light: By default, this setting is off, but enabling will reduce the luminance range preventing blown out looking highlights.

Iris Level: This is a bit of a misnomer, since it is also capable of adjusting the shutter speed if in auto (and the iris is locked), to raise or lower the exposure. With a range of +/- 99, lowering the setting will reduce the exposure, raising it will increase the exposure.

Using a technique similar to a DSLR, you can lock the iris and shutter in manual mode. Put the spot meter over your talent's skin and press the manual exposure button. Recompose the frame before taking the shot.

Patrick McLoad December 3rd, 2010 09:02 AM

Wow...what an incredible thread. Thank you all for sharing your results.
I have my work cut out for me now!

Patrick McLoad

Gabor Heeres March 14th, 2011 04:24 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Silly question here...

I downloads Alister's set above but now am wondering how to get the files loaded in the camera. Off course I've read the manual and spitted out this topic but it still won't work. I did trie different ways but it keeps saying "No file" on all numbers at the SxS Scene Recall menu. What should the folder structure on the SxS card look like? The SONY folder just besides the CLPR and TAKR folders in the root?

Alister Chapman March 20th, 2011 11:39 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
The Sony folder should be on the cards root, ie next to the BPAV folder, and NOT in the BPAV folder.

Gabor Heeres March 20th, 2011 11:56 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Thanks Alister. I do hope that Neut2 file works pretty good for ENG stuff, otherwise I'll just try to adapt it a bit. I found the 350's colours out-of-the-box way too much saturated. For example, this is what I shot on it this morning:

YouTube - Zwaargewonden bij ongeval knooppunt Batadorp

Patrick McLoad March 20th, 2011 12:15 PM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
I have the same problem with the orange and lime-green safety vests here in the States. Alister, I've asked this elsehwhere, but are your scene files specifically for European gear or does it matter?

Patrick McLoad

Alister Chapman March 20th, 2011 02:14 PM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Does not matter whether it's Pal or NTSC, should give the same results.

Alex Lucas March 31st, 2011 09:07 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
First of all, greetings from WTVF-TV Nashville, Tn.
Thanks to everyone on this forum, we're setting up our brand new PMW-350 cams right now from the scene files that we have been working on from this forum, and think that it's wonderful what you've all done to work in the camera to get it away from the terribly unexciting 'Sony out of the box' look.
Our station even bought really good Canon glass for them, and it's incredible the clarity of the images we're getting.

Thanks to Allister, and the rest of you, it's been an enlightening journey into the back end of the camera, and recently, I've seen our cams go from 'blah' to amazing in a few minutes, what the promise of these cameras would be.
Currently, we're liking the Allister colors, but in agreement that the blacks are a bit flat.
However, I'm in disagreement with the rest of the guys, because I'm a bigtime primary and secondary grade kind of guy, and like having the range I can really pull out of it.

Anyway, this is just a thank you note.
I'll be posting our final 'ENG' recipe when we're done. Currently, it's being fought over by fifteen guys right now.

Anthony McErlean May 9th, 2011 08:20 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Alister,

I used these settings on the 320.

Alister-Natural
Master Black -3, Gamma On, Gamma select 4 4609, Gamma Category HG, Detail On, Level -12, H/V Ratio +15, Crispening 0, Frequency +30, White Limit +30, Black Limit +40, Aperture On, Level -20. Matrix On, Preset Matrix On, Preset select 2, User Matrix On, R-G 0, R-B +5, G-R -6, G-B +8, B-R -15, B-G -9

I was wondering what to alter if i wanted to bring out a bit more colour.

Any ideas and thanks for posting these settings btw.

Alister Chapman May 10th, 2011 12:36 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
I can't remember whether the 320 has a saturation level control in the matrix settings. I think it does. If you increase that you will have more saturated colours.

failing that adding the same amount to all the matrix vectors (G-R etc) for example adding +20 to whatever level you have then currently at will increase the saturation. So if R-G = 0 then it becomes +20 and if R-B is +5 then it becomes +25.

Anthony McErlean May 10th, 2011 02:01 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Thank you Alister for your help,

I will try that and post back.

Thanks.

Anthony McErlean May 10th, 2011 07:44 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1647518)
I can't remember whether the 320 has a saturation level control in the matrix settings. I think it does. If you increase that you will have more saturated colours.

failing that adding the same amount to all the matrix vectors (G-R etc) for example adding +20 to whatever level you have then currently at will increase the saturation. So if R-G = 0 then it becomes +20 and if R-B is +5 then it becomes +25.

When I turned Multi Matrix on I see Hue and Saturation. Is it this saturation setting your talking about?

Thanks Alister.

Alister Chapman May 10th, 2011 09:17 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
No , not in the multi-matrix, but the standard matrix.

Anthony McErlean May 10th, 2011 09:45 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1647646)
No , not in the multi-matrix, but the standard matrix.

I dont see a saturation level control in the matrix settings, on the 320 (but then I'm no expert)
Matrix gives me these settings. (now changed to your SF.)
Matrix On
Preset Matrix On
Preset select 2
User Matrix On,
R-G 0, R-B +5, G-R -6, G-B +8, B-R -15, B-G -9

I'm trying these CF settings.

Alister-Natural
Master Black -3, Gamma On, Gamma select 4 4609, Gamma Category HG, Detail On, Level -12, H/V Ratio +15, Crispening 0, Frequency +30, White Limit +30, Black Limit +40, Aperture On, Level -20. Matrix On, Preset Matrix On, Preset select 2, User Matrix On, R-G 0, R-B +5, G-R -6, G-B +8, B-R -15, B-G -9

(In my 320 I noticed the reds a bit flat)

Thanks for your help Alister.

Anthony McErlean May 12th, 2011 08:41 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Also wondering,
In my EX3 I had GAMMA SETTING: CINE4 and MATRIX at high sat.

I dont see those options in my 320, are they hidden under a different menu?.
What other option would give me Matrix---High Sat

Thanks in advance.

Alister Chapman May 13th, 2011 03:14 PM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
The PMW-320 has Hypergamma as opposed to cinegammas. They are similar in what they do.

The different preset matrices have different saturation levels. I don't have a 320 or 350 and I can't remember what each one does.

Mark David Williams May 14th, 2011 02:53 PM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Just wondered if someone COULD develop a picture profile that looks like the F3?

Jim Forrest November 5th, 2011 04:40 PM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1629752)
The Sony folder should be on the cards root, ie next to the BPAV folder, and NOT in the BPAV folder.

Does it have to be a Memory card as the Sony site says or can the imported files be put on a SxS card?

Alister Chapman November 7th, 2011 01:37 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
To create a PP to look like an F3 wouldn't be to hard, but what really makes the F3 look the way it does id the shallow DoF and no PP will be able to do that.

On a PMW-350/PMW-320 you would want to soften the image just a little, perhaps using detail at -12 (or off) and then use aperture at +30 ish to keep textures crisp. Use CG1/CG3 along with the cinema matrix with saturation at +20. These are suggestions as I don't have a 350 to hand but should be close to an F3 (also use the same gamma/matrix on the F3 if using them side by side).

Piotr Wozniacki November 8th, 2011 08:17 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Hi Alister,

May I ask whether you have experimented in the direction of finding the best matching PPs for EX1 and FS100?

I have both, but only now I'm going to use them together - shooting (as usually) live classical music (you know the challenges:)).

Piotr

Dave Sperling November 8th, 2011 09:31 AM

Re: PMW-350 Developing Scene Files (Picture Profiles)
 
Just a few words on what I've found trying to make my EX1 somewhat match my F3 ---
In doing a lot af A-B'ing and looking at WFM levels, I found it best to set up a situation I wanted to match, then adjust the picture profiles on both cameras to get a similar look. I started by picking a gamma setting that I thought was fairly close between the two (cinegam3) and that made sense for what I was shooting, but found the matrix numbers I ended up with on the two cameras to match the color were vastly different. All in all, I spent a couple of hours to get the A-B extremely close (close enough for one of my clients whose delivery times are too quick for color correction in post).
If I go into a different kind of lighting situation, I'll start from scratch and do it again...


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